Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste Indiaspirituality Amrut

Regarding varnas.
Yes, my friend exceptions are rule. We can see that clearly in the Bhāgavatam 7.11.35, see my post #82.
Please read my posts more carefully. There I have explained how varna is determined. Varna is important. Birth is not random, it is according to our qualities that we developed in a previous life.

Regarding fall from Vaikuntha.
Word Vaikuntha is very rarely seen in the Upanishads. Probably not in any of the main Upanishads.
Philosoraptor and I had a lengthy discussion on this issue in the thread Start of the 'Atma'/Soul, see here: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...028#post103028

There, I mentioned one example from the most famous Upanishads. It is Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (2.5) where says (translation by Hrdayananda dasa Goswami):

śṛṇvantu viśve amṛtasya putrā
ā ye dhāmāni divyāni tasthuḥ

"All you sons of immortality, hear, you who once resided in the divine kingdom!"

It seems that this verse is also located in Rig Veda 10.13.1.

Gaudiya vaishnavas consider that this verse refers to divine kingdom or Vaikuntha.

regards

[jignyAsu]

Namaste

Continued from my post #82.

Further scriptural examples showing mlecchas by birth and/or shudras by birth becoming brahmanas:

The Mahabharata, Book 3: Vana Parva: Markandeya-Samasya Parva: Section CCXV (Ganguli translation)
See here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03215.htm

"For the Brahmana who is vain and haughty, who is addicted to vices and wedded to evil and degrading practices,
is like a Sudra. On the other hand, I consider a Sudra who is always adorned with these virtues,--righteousness, self-restraint,
and truthfulness,--as a Brahmana. A man becomes a Brahmana by his character"

If a Brahmana who is vain and haughty has become a sudra, then how do we look at him and say - this Brahmana is a sudra? Isn't that contradiction if we deem the varna to be based on quality only? When Yudhistra and Duryodhana both became 8, their respective qualities became apparent. Why weren't they both appointed as Brahmana and Mleccha respectively?

Why not refer to Ashwattama and Kripa as sudras from the day after they killed all Pandavas in sleep?

The purport of all this is therefore to say that Brahmana doesn't have the brahminical qualities, then he is a Brahmana by title (namesake) only.

[Amrut]

Namaste, Thank you for your contribution.

Thank you for providing the link. If we read the full article, we can shed some light on it.

"The fowler continued, 'Thus cursed by that rishi, I sought to propitiate him with these words: 'Pardon me, O muni, I have done this wicked deed unwittingly. It behooves thee to pardon all that. Do thou, worshipful sir, soothe yourself.' The rishi replied, 'The curse that I have pronounced can never be falsified, this is certain. But from kindness towards thee, I shall do thee a favour. Though born in the Sudra class thou shalt remain a pious man and thou shalt undoubtedly honour thy parents; and by honouring them thou shalt attain great spiritual perfection; thou shalt also remember the events of thy past life and shalt go to heaven; and on the expiation of this curse, thou shalt again become a Brahmana. O best of men, thus, of old was I cursed by that rishi of severe power, and thus was he propitiated by me. Then, O good Brahmana, I extricated the arrow from his body, and took him into the hermitage, but he was not deprived of his life (recovered). O good Brahmana, I have thus described to thee what happened to me of old, and also how I can go to heaven hereafter.' The Brahmana said, 'O thou of great intelligence, all men are thus subject to happiness or misery, thou shouldst not therefore grieve for that. In obedience to the customs of thy (present) race, thou hast pursued these wicked ways, but thou art always devoted to virtue and versed in the ways and mysteries of the world. And, O learned man, these being the duties of thy profession, the stain of evil karma will not attach to thee.And after dwelling here for some little time, thou shalt again become a Brahmana; and even now, I consider thee to be a Brahmana, there is no doubt about this. For the Brahmana who is vain and haughty, who is addicted to vices and wedded to evil and degrading practices, is like a Sudra. On the other hand, I consider a Sudra who is always adorned with these virtues,--righteousness, self-restraint, and truthfulness,--as a Brahmana. A man becomes a Brahmana by his character; by his own evil karma a man attains an evil and terrible doom. O good man. I believe that sin in thee has now died out. Thou must not grieve for this, for men, like thee who art so virtuous and learned in the ways and mysteries of the world, can have no cause for grief.'

This shows that

1. The person was of good character, but did a mistake and got cursed for mistake / misbehaving
2. Due to good behaviour, Rishi gave boon that though he is a sudra, he will remain pious and shall attain wisdom
3. After expiation of this curse, he shall again become Brahmana (Brahmin)
4. Note the word used is 'I consider'
5. Though must not grieve: this means that next words are for encouragement.

Please, I am not trying to defend any view. This is just an observation

Conclusion:

We conclude that the person was pious, a but due to some mistake, mis-deed, he/she was cursed.

This is descend and not ascend from animal kingdom to human race. So say, that from Dog one becomes human in next birth is evolution. Here it is not evolution but devolution due to bad karma and curse of a rishi.

But since he has done many good deeds other than one mistake (for which he was cursed), after expiation of curse, the original guNa, which was of brahmin, will become active and effective.

First there was curse and then scolding that brahmin is brahmin not just by birth thereby condemning the action, referring that brahminhood has to be maintained.

Then due to humble behaviour, recognizing and accepting mistake, compassionate rishi also have boon and decreased the effect of curse.

Then followed encouragement to the 'embarrassed' and 'guilty' but pious person as guNa is determined by karma. It did not say that you will become brahmana before curse is expiated.

I hope you are getting my point.

---------

Sv. Up. translation of moola sloka says something different.

नमोभिर्विश्लोक एतु पथ्येव सुरेः ।
शृण्वन्तु विश्वे अमृतस्य पुत्रा आ ये धामानि दिव्यानि तस्थुः ॥ २.५ ॥


2.5: O senses and O deities who favour them! Through salutations I unite myself with the eternal Brahman, who is your source. Let this prayer sung by me, who follow the right path of the Sun, go forth in all directions. May the sons of the Immortal, who occupy celestial positions, hear it!

2.5: Hear, O children of immortality and residents of heaven !
Follow only in the foot-steps of the wise, by continuous
meditation merge both mind and intellect in the eternal
Brahman. The glorious Lord will be revealed to you.

Note: You need to install font to read devanagari font.

since it is disputed about authorship of commentary on Sv. Up. by Adi Shankara, I have not referred to it.

We need other views.

-----------

Regarding reference from veda-s knowledgeable members can shed light on this issue. I have not read veda-s. Simply reading few verses is not going to help me in giving correct picture.

I humbly request you to please read full story to get correct picture.

Thank you for your opinion

Hari OM

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste Indiaspirituality Amrut

Regarding my quoting of Mahabharata.
I think these words are very clear and does not need any interpretation:

"I consider a Sudra who is always adorned with these virtues,--righteousness, self-restraint,
and truthfulness,--as a Brahmana. A man becomes a Brahmana by his character"

Besides the statement is entirely consistent with Bhāgavatam 7.11.35.

Sv. Up. translation of moola sloka says something different.

Although it may be that no other translator translated this verse like Hrdayananda dasa Goswami has translated it, this does not mean that it can not be translated like that. Sanskrit verses in the scriptures can often be translated in several ways.

regards

[Amrut]

Although it may be that no other translator translated this verse like Hrdayananda dasa Goswami has translated it, this does not mean that it can not be translated like that. Sanskrit verses in the scriptures can often be translated in several ways.

regards

Pranams,

I agree. This is why I asked for more views

Hari OM

[philosoraptor]

I don't see the point. What are you alluding to?

regards

What was Ashvatthaama's varNa before he murdered the sleeping sons of the Paandavas, and what was it after he murdered the sons of the Paandavas, as per shAstra?

Of course you don't see what I'm "alluding" to, since the answer contradicts your theory.

[philosoraptor]

There, I mentioned one example from the most famous Upanishads. It is Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (2.5) where says (translation by Hrdayananda dasa Goswami):

śṛṇvantu viśve amṛtasya putrā
ā ye dhāmāni divyāni tasthuḥ

"All you sons of immortality, hear, you who once resided in the divine kingdom!"

It seems that this verse is also located in Rig Veda 10.13.1.

Gaudiya vaishnavas consider that this verse refers to divine kingdom or Vaikuntha.

Pardon me for butting in here, but which "Gaudiya vaishnavas" say that? I hope by "Gaudiya vaishnavas," you aren't referring to the one "Gaudiya Vaishnava" who also thinks that homosexual monogamy should be officially recognized, that ancient Hindu women liked Radha and Sita walked around bare-breasted, and that Sri Prabhupada was wrong for insisting on an orthodox standard of morality for his followers.

[philosoraptor]

Further scriptural examples showing mlecchas by birth and/or shudras by birth becoming brahmanas:

The Mahabharata, Book 3: Vana Parva: Markandeya-Samasya Parva: Section CCXV (Ganguli translation)
See here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03215.htm

"For the Brahmana who is vain and haughty, who is addicted to vices and wedded to evil and degrading practices,
is like a Sudra. On the other hand, I consider a Sudra who is always adorned with these virtues,--righteousness, self-restraint,
and truthfulness,--as a Brahmana. A man becomes a Brahmana by his character"

If I say, "My guru is like a father," it is implicitly understood from the sentence that my guru is not my father, and that this is a metaphor. Furthermore, saying "I consider" that a shUdra with all brahminical qualities is "as a brahmana," also implies a metaphor rather than a statement of identity. A man becomes a brahmaNa by his character - that is true - when one has good character, one can become a brahmin (in sense of who knows brahman) in this very life, or be born again as a brahmin (in the conventional hereditary sense) in his next life. The verse is not saying that the shUdra is a brahmin. That this is so is obvious from the preceding context which brahma-jijnasa rather conveniently left out:

The Brahmana said, 'O thou of great intelligence, all men are thus subject to happiness or misery, thou shouldst not therefore grieve for that. In obedience to the customs of thy (present) race, thou hast pursued these wicked ways, but thou art always devoted to virtue and versed in the ways and mysteries of the world. And, O learned man, these being the duties of thy profession, the stain of evil karma will not attach to thee. And after dwelling here for some little time, thou shalt again become a Brahmana; and even now, I consider thee to be a Brahmana, there is no doubt about this. For the Brahmana who is vain and haughty.... etc

Some understanding of context is necessary here before we proceed. Merely taking isolated statements out of context will not lead to an understanding of the text, though it may be useful for some opportunistic persons who are looking to bolster their ideological beliefs. The brahmin in this story was referred to the fowler because the fowler, despite his lowly duties, was a perfect servant of his parents. The fowler teaches the brahmin that, despite his ascetism and learning, he had committed a sin by leaving his parents without their permission. The brahmin remarks that the fowler seems like a brahmin himself, and asks him how he came to be a fowler. The fowler then tells the story of how he was indeed a brahmin in his previous life, and how, in association with a king, he went hunting and accidentally slew a Rishi. The Rishi cursed him to become a shudra in his next life, but modified the curse that, as a shudra, he would remain a faithful servant of his parents, and thus reap great merit.

Now, when the brahmin says that the fowler will again become a brahmin, he is referring to his next life. This is obvious from the context of him having been a brahmin in his previous life, as well as from the statement that he (the brahmin) now considers the fowler to be just like a brahmin. Saying that the follower will again become a brahmin, and then saying that he considers him a brahmin now, implies that he is not a brahmin now, despite having the qualities of a brahmin now. Otherwise, he would have said, "You are now a brahmin" instead of "You will again become a brahmin." Saying that he considers him "as a brahmin" is in keeping the view of smRiti that a knowledgeable and devoted non-brahmin should be given equal respect as a brahmin; it does not mean that the non-brahmin is a brahmin.

Moreover, the idea of quality determining the varNa in the present birth does not tally with how this subject is addressed later in the Mahabharata. For example, in the Gita, Arjuna displays compassion for his relatives and says he wants to renounce war and take to begging. But where was the allowance for this? Why was he not promoted to the status of a brahmin when he displayed these brahminical qualities?

Vidura was the son of a servant woman, but had indisputable devotion and shAstra-jnAna. Where is the verse calling Vidura a brahmin? Where?

Ashvatthaama and Drona were brahmins, but they took to the profession of kShatriyas. Neither in Mahabharata nor in Bhagavata are they ever referred to as kShatriyas. Moreover, Ashvatthaama murdered the 5 sleeping sons of the Paandavas and irreparably disgraced himself. What do the shAstras say about his varNa before and after this heinous act? In the bhagavatam 1st canto, it is stated that he is a brahmin and that his life was spared because a brahmin should not be killed. It is specifically stated that Sri Krishna approved of this punishment (of only symbolically killing him instead of actually killing him).

The revisionist cannot explain how a brahmin who performed such a non-brahminical act, can still get the benefit of being a brahmin when being judged for his performance of a capital offense

Verses like bhAgavata 7.11.35 indicate that we should give respect to people independent of their jAti-varNa if they have demonstrated exceptional shAstra-jnAna and devotion. For example, Duryodhana should have respected Vidura's wisdom instead of denouncing him as a servant woman's son. Nowhere in the bhAgavatam do we see shUdras being initiated as brahmins.

[Avyaydya]

Namaste
See here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03215.htm

On the other hand, I consider a Sudra who is always adorned with these virtues,--righteousness, self-restraint, and truthfulness,--as a Brahmana. A man becomes a Brahmana by his character"

How good is you English? The words "as" tells that he is NOT a Brahmana, but equal to one. Yes a man becomes a Brahmana by improving his character, so he can be reborn a Brahmana.

[Amrut]

Namaste,

Since Bhagavat is quoted, I attempt to quote Uddhava Gita, which is a part of Bhagavat. Note that the chapter numbers are not that of Bhagavat but of Uddhava Gita. Engkish Translation by Swami Madhavananda of Ramakrishna mission is provided out of mere convenience.

NOTE: Instructions to Uddhava by Lord Krishna known as "The Uddhava Gita" starts from verse 40, Chapter 6, Book 11 of Shrimad Bhagavatam

Chapter 5, Real Nature of World

Varna and Kula by birth

ष्रीभगवानुवाच ।
मयोदितेष्ववहितःस्वधर्मेषुमदाश्रयः।
वर्णाश्रमकुलाचारमकामात्मासमाचरेत्* ॥१॥

The Lord said:

5.1 The man who has taken refuge in Me will attend to his particular duties as inculcated (in the scriptures) by Me and perform the rites of his (varNa) caste, (Ashrama) order of life, or family, with an unattached mind.

Refer 5.21: limited results from havan-s

23 – 26 : explain karma with desire, going to heaven
29-79: negative karma – go to lower worlds

Jnana is permanent

Chapter 8: Knowledge through the destruction of gunas, the lord teaches as a swan

दृष्टिततःप्रतिनिवर्त्य निवृत्ततृष्ण –
स्तूष्णीभवेन्निजसुखाउभवोनिरीहः।
सदृश्यतेक च यदीदमवस्तुद्धया
त्यत्कंब्रमाय न भवेत्स्मृतिरानिपातात्* ॥८॥

8.35 Withdrawing the organs from the universe one should be immersed in one’s own Bliss; one should give up desires, be silent and free from action. If ever the universe is experienced, it will not lead to error, being one discarded as unreal, but will linger as a memory only, till death (videhi mukti)

Chapter 12: Castes and orders of life.

उद्धव उवाच ।

यस्त्वयाबिह्हितःपूर्व धर्मस्त्वभ्दक्तिलक्षणः।
वर्णाक्षमाचारवतांसर्वेषांद्विपदामपि॥१॥
यथानुष्ठीयमानेन त्वयिभक्तिर्नृणांभवेन्* ।
स्वधर्मेणारविन्दाक्ष तत्समाख्यातुमहर्सि॥२॥

Uddhava said:
12.1-2: Thou hast already (in chapter 5) spoken of religion which makes for devotion to Thee, and is meant for all human beings, with or without the observances of varNAshrama and order of life; please tell me, O Lotus-eyes One, how by practicing that religion for himself a man may attain to devotion to Thee.

आदौकृतयुगेवर्णोहंस इतिस्मृतः।
कृतकृत्याःप्रज्ञागात्यातस्मात्कृतयुगंविदुः॥१०॥

12.10: In the beginning, in the Krita or satya yuga, men had but one varNa which was known as Hamsa. People attained the consummation of their desires from their very birth, and hence the age was called Krita (achieved)

वेदःप्रणव एवाग्रेधर्मोऽहंवृष्रुपधृक्* ।
उपासतेपतोनिष्ठांहंसंमांमुक्तकिल्बिषाः॥११॥

12.11: In that primeval age, OM was the Veda and I was religion in the form of a Bull. The people of that age, who were pure and given to contemplation, used to reflect [1] on Me, the Pure One

[1]. Reflect: Internal worship, no external worship)

त्रेतामुखेमहाभाग प्राणान्मेहृदयात्तयी।
विध्याप्रादुरभूत्तस्याअहमासंत्रिवृन्मखः॥१२॥

12.12: At the beginning of the Treta Yuga, O noble soul, the science of the Veda appeared from My [1] heart, through the agency of the Prana. Out of that I became the sacrifice with it’s threefold adjunct [2].

[1] My – Virat Swarupa
[2] Threefold adjunct – Three priests – Hota, Adhvaryu and Udgita, who perform the different fuctions in connection with a Vedic sacrifice.

विप्रक्षत्रियविट्*शूद्रामुखबाहूरुपादजाः।
वैराजात्पुरुषाज्जाताय आत्मावारलक्षणाः॥१३॥

12.13: From the Virat sprang the Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra, from the mouth, arms, thighs and feet respectively. They were distinguished by their specialized duties.

गृहाश्रमोजघनतोब्रह्मचर्य हृदोमम ।
वक्षःस्थानाद्वनेवासोन्यासःशीर्ष्णिसंस्थितः॥१४॥

12.14: The householder’s life sprang from My thighs, the student life [1] from My heart, the life of retirement into the woods from my chest, and monasticism was on My head

[1] Student life: Chastity as it’s chief element.

वर्णामाश्रमाणांच जन्मभूम्यनुसारिणीः।
आसन्प्रकृतयोनृणांनीचैर्नीचोत्तमोत्तमाः॥१५॥

12.15: The tendencies of the different varNAshrama (caste and order of life) among men were according to the place [1] of the origin: Inferior positions produced inferior tendencies and superior positions superior ones.

[1] Place in Virat svarupa

Next sloka-s talk about qualities of all 4 varNa-s

12.22 explains dvija: two types of brahmachari-s – UpaurvAna (who enter house hold life after completion of study) and Naishthika ( maintain life long celibacy)

Marriage in Other varNa

गृहार्थीसद्दर्शीभार्यामुद्वहेदजुगुप्सिताम्* ।
यवीयसींतुवयसायांसवर्णामनुक्रमात्* ॥३९॥

12.39: A person wishing to lead a householder’s life, should marry an unblemished girl of the same varNa, who must be younger in age, and if he wishes to marry any other, he should do so after the above marriage, and even then, in the succeeding order [1’

[1] Brahmin was allowed to marry in the three lower varNa also, a kshatriya in the two lower and a VAishya in the Shudra varNa also, the last being confined ot his own varNa. But not in the reverse order. First one should marry in same varNa, then to other varNa.

सीदन्विप्रोवणीग्वृत्त्यापण्यैरेवापदंतरेत्* ।
खड्*गेन वाऽऽपदाक्रान्तोन श्र्वृत्त्याकथ, न्वन ॥४७॥

12.47: A helpless Brahmana should get over his trouble by setting up as a merchant [1], selling only things allowable [2]. If he is still overtaken by misfortune, he should have recourse to the sword, but never resort to animal-like [3] servility

[1] Merchant: This is in contravention of GAutama’s injunction that the occupation of a next lower varNa should be adopted in time of danger.

[2] Allowable: not wine, etc

[3] original translation: dog-like

Similarly next 2 verses talk about adopted work of immiediate lower varNa of other 2 varNA-s (kshatriya and Vishya)

There are 58 verses in this chapter, I did not find any verse that say that one can change varNa.

Aum

EDIT: Link for Uddhava Gita

http://www.gita-society.com/scriptur...VAGITA.IGS.pdf