Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

[Amrut]

Namaste,

If we proud ourselves as Hindus and believe in universal wellbeing, then we should not make such statements like you cannot be Hindu unless you are born in Hindu family .

If that was the case then why would so many saints from India would travel to USA and other western countries. Did they not knew our dharma? No. They just wanted to uplift humanity irrespective of caste and creed.

Since so many saints have traveled to the west and with immortal saints like Mahavatar Babaji instructing Paramhansa Yogananda and others to go to west would mean that this step could not be wrong. So the idea was to uplift them without dragging them to our dharma.

So for westerners, they can be Hindus without attaching or caring about varNa. They can all lift spiritually the Hindu way, as all is happening by the wish of Shiva.

Please be assured that there is no intention to out-caste anyone. We are just discussing about varNa dharma. In the end, there can be mata-bheda (difference of opinion), but not mana-bheda (superiority complex, or any negative emotions like hatred, etc).

No one is an out-caste nor there should be any attempt to call one out-caste just because one is not Hindu by birth. If one does then he / she should be politely corrected and the one who is feeling out-caste should be compassionately and calmly consoled, and given shastric evidence.

I think, the reason behind some saints saying not to leave own dharma would mean that they should not run away from the situation. They do not say they are forbidden to practice our dharma. All can apply our Dharma's instructions and can progress spiritually. If God has given them birth in a dharma then that dharma must suit them. But maybe there is no one to guide them in their dharma so they take help of our dharma specially the spiritual aspect and sincerely try to uplift them.

There are some unique features of our dharma like doctrine of karma and reincarnation, universal well being via varNa-Ashrama dharma. Meditation or nama japa is also stressed along with philosophical enquiry. Simply reading is not enough, one has to have direct experience or intuitive experience of what shastra-s say. One has to dive deep within. As mind becomes subtle and pure, one gets broader vision and clarity.

Aum

Amrut

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Amrutji

I second that.

If I may add, for far too long we have been subject to ridicule by our subjugators.if lies get told enough time one may be forgiven to adjust the view to only guna and karma and drop the birth (the subject of ridicule), I can understand such sentiment but in the end truth must always prevail, it is up to us not to feel apologetic for the tradition that has stood the test of time that the birth,guna and karma go hand in hand, there can never be injustice in the court of all mighty.

Pranam ShivaFan

I do feel for your stand, one day I hope you will understand where we all coming from.
As for the exceptional circumstance of Vishvamitra you mention, you forget one thing, no mundane authority confirmed his status as BrahmRishi, his was a extraordinary tapas which resulted in Devine authority to confirm his new status, the irony still is that when his birth is mention it is always Kashtriya birth.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Avyaydya]

Namaste,

If we proud ourselves as Hindus and believe in universal wellbeing, then we should not make such statements like you cannot be Hindu unless you are born in Hindu family .

If that was the case then why would so many saints from India would travel to USA and other western countries. Did they not knew our dharma? No. They just wanted to uplift humanity irrespective of caste and creed.

Since so many saints have traveled to the west and with immortal saints like Mahavatar Babaji instructing Paramhansa Yogananda and others to go to west would mean that this step could not be wrong. So the idea was to uplift them without dragging them to our dharma.

So for westerners, they can be Hindus without attaching or caring about varNa. They can all lift spiritually the Hindu way, as all is happening by the wish of Shiva.

Please be assured that there is no intention to out-caste anyone. We are just discussing about varNa dharma. In the end, there can be mata-bheda (difference of opinion), but not mana-bheda (superiority complex, or any negative emotions like hatred, etc).

I think this whole discussion only exists because Iskcon created a movement in which westerners try to mimic Indians in every way so they can call themselves Hindus.

Does the make them Hindus? No, only superficially. Like Judaism Hinduism consists of traditions you need to be born into. Culture is not something that can be copied. If a Westerner would live in India and marry a Hindu woman, his children can become Hindus, because they pick up the subtle aspects of the culture unconsciously.

But what converters copy is not the subtle aspects but the gross ones we perceive with our mind. That is why Western Hindus are so concerned with buying Indian clothes, eat Indian meals, quote texts Brahmanas seldom read, do Hindu rituals and exercises, all to look Hindu. The end result is something like a dog trying to behave like cat. It is a travesty.

It was not the intention of most Hindu teachers going to the west to turn westerners into Hindu's. They wanted to help westerners improve their own consciousness by teaching them techniques and open their mind to new ways to look at existence. They did not want to change westerners in Hindus.

The mentality of an Iskconite has nothing in common with that of a traditional Hindu. Many these white "Hindus" look like a circus attraction with their street processions. But they bribe, they lie, they extort, even murder, whatever. If people have any doubt that Iskcon is aDharm than they better inform themselves quickly. here, here, here, here.

The good of Hinduism is not customs, not techniques, not philosophy, it is a mentality. A loving mentality in which love is expressed for every being in the universe because of its Divine essence. That is at the heart of it. That is what people like Vivekananda and many others spread.

But Prabhupada created a personality cult which copies the attributes but lacks the essence: true love. People are being abused. The worst is the abuse of the Children which creates more abusers in turn. It is known that 50% of children sexually abused become paedophiles themselves. It it is also known to trigger psychopathy. That is what Iskcon is: a breeding ground for sexual predators and psychopaths. That is why they so easily lie and deceive.

Really, if Iskonites are to be considered Hindus then I prefer to call myself a Pagan. I want nothing to do with Iskcon. Whenever I met them in the streets they gave me the creeps. It is all so over the top and unreal. There is nothing natural about them. This movement is so corrupt it makes Duryodhan and his brothers look like schoolboys. Here one of the many absurd stories.

You say there is no intention to outcast anyone. I suggest sincere Hindus distance criminal organisations from Sanatan Dharm, otherwise Hinduism becomes as sad a joke as Iskcon. The Ramayana and Mahabharata set a superb ethical standard for humanity, Iskcon does the opposite. But whatever you do, their self-appointed corrupt leaders will go on to give "brahmana diskha" to their pupils, which invariably leads to new power struggles and new corrupt "Brahmanas".

I think the whole emphasis is put on the wrong place. Sanatan Dharm is about Dharm. the eternal Divine rules of Nature. Because these rules are Divine rules of Nature you do not need to be of any tradition or creed to follow them, nor does turning people into "Hindus" make them any better. That is only a cover for abusers who like to pursue their crimes behind new identities.

They use the same ingenious system as other cults. Make members totally submissive. Let them study and work so hard they have no time to look after their children. And then take the children under your control and abuse them. If parents object you use their beliefs about God against them. There is nothing more evil than evil disguised as good and holy.

You will not hear Iskonites discus about Dharm, no like in Christian sects they are told to focus on salvation. The promise of Moksha is what the leaders use to keep them submissive and keep their attention away what happens around them. They do not teach them Dharm, for then they would soon revolt seeing how corrupt their leaders are.

Having so many philosophies I always understood Hinduism to be Sanatan Dharm, to follow Dharm. To be free thinking but to follow Dharm, a dharmic way of life. But as Iskcon with her repressive doctrine and adharmic behaviour is also considered "Hinduism" that can not be the case.

Well then I rather be a Western Pagan following Dharm.

[Avyaydya]

Namaste,

If we proud ourselves as Hindus and believe in universal wellbeing, then we should not make such statements like you cannot be Hindu unless you are born in Hindu family .

Why not? I would say that is normal for a non-proselyting tradition.
Do you think Dharm allows proselyting?

I would rather say: You do not need to be a Hindu to follow Sanatan Dharm. Sanatan Dharm is not a tradition. It is respecting the Divine laws of Nature. Westerners can do that individually or create their own traditions devoted to Dharm. No need at all to mimic Indians like Iskconites do.

Only proselyting religions like Christianity want to be universal

[Amrut]

Pranam Amrutji

I second that.

If I may add, for far too long we have been subject to ridicule by our subjugators.if lies get told enough time one may be forgiven to adjust the view to only guna and karma and drop the birth (the subject of ridicule), I can understand such sentiment but in the end truth must always prevail, it is up to us not to feel apologetic for the tradition that has stood the test of time that the birth,guna and karma go hand in hand, there can never be injustice in the court of all mighty.


Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Ganesh ji,

I third that

Jai Shree Krishna

[charitra]

Shivafanji,
I just returned from Hyderabad after spending just 2 short weeks there. And whilst there among other things I did, I also attended an intercaste and interlingusitic marriage of my very close relative! Great news for Hinduism, don’t you think. In my extended family and friends circle there are many such matrimonial unions that took place and I must say these marriages have built bridges across the caste divide.
The youth will bring down the caste walls that were erected by a few ill-informed individuals who were persistent with their menacing self-centric designs that became part of their persona and wont go away all their miserable lives.
Varna is nonexistent in Kaliyuga, for that matter it got diluted right in Dwapara yuga itself and hence Sri Krishna had to define it for all the humanity standing among 18 akshounis (millions? Not sure) of soldiers on the first day of Kurukshetra war. In our era only divisive caste is left and this jati/kula is equated to varna by the caste lunatics and fanatics. But then help is on the way. Once again caste will be separated by varna and the emphasis is laid on guna in this janma. Namaste.

[charitra]

Here is one such example that will make us gain insights as to how the caste and varna got manipulated by one or two caste people (only) in recent times. Marriage of convenience can convert one catse or non caste person into another person’s caste?!
Read below news paper article. I must say the young man’s family adopted a new progressive trend which is good for Hinduism. I would like to invite the comments of esteemed members of HDF on this laudable intercaste union-

Brahmin boy from Hornad married an orphan
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...?homepage=true

When push comes to shove, caste gives way

If a marriage in Bangalore on Monday is any indication, a section of Brahmins of interior Malnad region appear to be shunning caste and endogamy.
On Monday, an educated Shivalli Brahmin boy from Hornad married an orphan brought up in a government shelter without bothering about her lineage, horoscope, caste or gotra and without seeking the counsel of a priest.
In a simple religious ceremony organised by the Department of Women and Child Development, Roopa, who entered the government orphanage as a six year old, was united with B.P. Satish, who was raised in a highly traditional Shivalli Brahmin family. “There hasn’t been a single inter-caste marriage in my family for centuries. I changed all that,” beamed Satish who works in a college at Sringeri.
What brought about this remarkable revolution?

“We are not the first. A relative too married a girl raised in a government orphanage,” said Satish’s mother M.A. Mahalakshmi. But what happened to caste? “There are more marriageable boys in our community than girls,” explains B.S. Padmanabha, the father.
Then, why not marry somebody from another caste? Why only an orphan? Mr. Padmanabha said that because an orphan has no caste. “Once an orphan marries into our caste, she becomes one of us,” said the mother. What about orphaned boys? Mother: “We are short of girls not boys.” Father: “The girl’s caste is not as important as the boy’s.”
“The problem,” according to R. Shankar, “is that educated and beautiful girls from good families only want to marry software engineers living in America. Brahmin boys from rural areas stand no chance.” Shankar and his friends T.N. Prasad and N.R. Sudhir are the new-age matchmakers within the Shivalli community.

Scouting for marriageable girls at orphanages across the State is fast becoming their fulltime occupation.
They say that the worsening farm crisis and dipping education indices among boys in the community are rendering them ineligible for marriage.
Shankar and Prasad are all for inter-caste marriages as well, but Sudhir is against the concept. “Marrying orphans and converting them as Shivallis is controversial in itself,” said Sudhir.
The groom’s younger brother B.P. Madhusudan, a shy man in his late 20s, is preparing to follow suit. “I too want to get married here,” are the only words The Hindu could coax out of him.

Keywords: inter-caste marriage, Malnad region

[Viraja]

To give my opinion on the marriage issue presented here, I would like to honestly state that i) I would not mind a different caste, even one that is socially considered 'lower' in status to that of a Brahmana but ii) I would like my son or daughter to marry someone from a well-established, decent family -- it is ok if the family has things in it like intercaste marriage, etc. But I would like a well-educated, well-settled partner for my son and my daughter.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

As some, e.g. Ganeshprashad, point out with strong sanction from traditions, that birth, guna and karma go hand in hand. This is where the confusion comes in regarding the position of some Saiva traditions by other traditions such as “by birth only” Vaishnav traditions for example (I am using this as an example only, and not characterizing all as having one or another tradition). There are Saiva traditions that do not follow “caste”, but they do not deny that due to good karma one can be born into a good family, or due to bad karma one can be born into a bad family. There is no denying that karma can manifest in this manner. Therefore, yes, one can say birth, guna and karma all go hand in hand. The distinction lies in that, some traditions teach that a particular birth to a particular family is thus a “life sentence” (subject to that entire, single life) and that one’s vocation is dictated by the vocation of one’s parents. I do not follow this tradition of “castism”, I believe that while varna is obviously Vedic, jati or caste based vocation is not. Varna is obvious to almost all cultures, since the beginning of “modern” times (viz the establishments of states when humans ceased to be simply hunters/gatherers), most every society has recognized that there is a stratification in society based on priests (who conduct or protect religion), warriors (who are protecting the state), farmers and business classes, and (“blue-collar” in modern Western terms) workers who are the labor class. However, one can, with the combination of good character that is intrinsic or developed (and obviously those who are born in a “good” family often have an advantage to learn such good character from their parents), good boons and accumulated good works, one can become anything in a single life, even a Brahmarishi. Obviously the state of Brahmarishi is so rare, one can say it is unheard of, but successfully changing vocation by study and proving oneself to society and/or employer is common as the changing of seasons. Also, do not discount even direct intervention by Devas or Devi in a particular devotee’s life. However, true Brahmanas are also so rare today, they are practically nil in this age, but there are some who master Vedic rites or become exceptional in knowledge. And confusion is rampant in this age due to those who may have been a Brahmana but then lost this status, they even teach false and bad character to their offspring, they hurt others in society, they have no standing as a Knower of the Brahman, yet due to the “caste” (by birth) claims, their offspring claim they are brahmins just because their parents were such but actually their parents were demons. In fact, such would be an example of being born into a bad Brahmin family, even a Rakshasa, which could be attributed to bad karma. A Brahmana is more than just a priest in a temple (brahmin). A demon is not just a Rakshasa for example, but one who claims Brahmana status but turns this into only a “name” (or title) and betrays all the expectations of such responsibilities and commitments to society. I was told by an authorized savant, that I am a “Vaishya”, but I do not care about that. To tell the truth, it would have been a “wish” that this savant would have said, “ShivaFan, I tell you, you are a Kshatriya!”. Now THAT I would have liked, but being told the claim that I am a Vaishya is as “disappointing” to me as if I were told I am a “Brahmin” which would have also disappointed me since, frankly, the idea of being a “priest” and chanting Vedic mantras is not for me. In general, that description as a “farmer or business person” may match my character, I am in the IT industry, and while that pays well, in fact I make notably more every year from my investments than I do in salary (among the Ramayana and Saivism, investing is sort of a “passion” and actually I am very good at it). I also happen to love the “hard stone” fruit industry (cherries, peaches, plums, etc.). Yet, I live simply, and hope to again start travel as I did often when I was younger, which I plan on doing after I retire at 59 ½ years old. At that point, I have no idea what would best describe me, since the best description is "an adventurer" but even the claim that I am “Vaishya” is not relevant to me, in that I openly admit I am not “twice born” (e.g. reborn by an Acharya).

By the way, once again let me emphasize, I nor anyone in the tradition I respect, will or would tell anyone else they must "give up their caste". No. Nor would I try to tell someone else, "you must be this or that" (caste, or untouchable, etc.).


Namaste Charitra and Viraja

What an interesting read, thanks for that! I wish all the best for your very close relative, and congratulations! Even though my own daughter’s matrimony is many years away, I have been studying the works by author Dr. Sheenu Srinivasan to prepare for it (Jeffery Long introduced this author to me). To me, caste means nothing, but I am with Viraja in the perspective that whoever she marries, I want it to be from a good family as possible, where alliances of families can benefit all because we cannot be isolated from each other, especially in Kali Yuga where there are so many dangers.

Anyway, I am on a break right now, and have to get back to "work", but I really enjoyed your post Charitra, and also I agree with Viraja!

Om Namah Sivaya

[Avyaydya]

Shivafanji,
I just returned from Hyderabad after spending just 2 short weeks there. And whilst there among other things I did, I also attended an intercaste and interlingusitic marriage of my very close relative! Great news for Hinduism, don’t you think.

With a bit of luck you children will marry Christians and Muslims and they will be free of Hindu ties altogether. Or they may marry into Iskcon and your grandchildren become the favourite of a guru and given Brahmana dicksha.

You may be right that cast boundaries are coming down. But it still has to be proven that the so-called egalitarian society is any better. When traditional class boundaries disappear they are replaced with new ones. It simply means that prestige that families built over many generations is replaced with wealth and fame. But you will see that the new wealthy then use their capital to marry into old impoverished families of reputation. What you end up with is something more corrupt, something more power and money hungry.

There will always be classes because that is simply a logical product of Nature. Classes are not instated on people from above. They are naturally formed. They can be perceived as negative for obstructing change or as positive for creating stability in society. The poorest in society are most served with stability and the first victims of change.

It is a bit early to embrace the new era as one of bounty. Change is so rapid that everything becomes unstable. No one can say if we are going to land in paradise or in a nightmare. Maybe in half a century the rich will say: we do not need the underclass anymore, we have robots now. Lets kill them off so we have less pressure on the ecosystem. Who is going to stop them if the people that defend ethics no longer have any power?

It is not whether classes will exist, it is rather which classes we allow to rule. Is it military or money that will rule or do we want to give power to people that have higher ethics. Positions of power are actively strived for by ruthless power hungry people, that is why it is good to have barriers.

People are seldom better off with a power change because it simply means that a new group of people will fill their pockets at the costs of the rest. If they are replaced with yet another group, the process is repeated further impoverishing people. Then people realise they were much better of with the old guard. Because only when secure power positions are achieved the leaders start to become interested in the needs of others to create stability to maintain their position.

What we are now moving to is an cosmopolitan money elite owning big corporations and banks that have no affiliation with people of any nation. The local elite they buy and bribe to do their bidding. The more local power systems are based on the rationality of economics the easier this is. Countries that still have strong socials structures have a better defence.

They idea of one big happy world without class boundaries where everyone is rewarded for his abilities only is not so ethical as it seems either. It means that those that are less competitive go under having no niches to survive. It means older workers get ditched, it means workers suddenly get laid off because somewhere else in the world production now is cheaper.

The new global elite wants to get rid of all cultural boundaries within and between countries. They want a world market. But be sure that they will take good care of their own family and a new feudal system will arise. The rich of this world now have 32 trillion stashed on secret bank accounts on which the never pay taxes. Multinationals now pay no more than 1% tax. This new colonialism is simply a continuation of the old one but at an even bigger scale.

Countries will only be able to steer their own destiny if they have an local elite that is firmly grounded in their society and feel connected to this society. What creates the strongest ties? It is family, tribes, race, traditions, all the things modernists so detest. But break down these borders and nations will be sold out by an elite only interested in their own luxury.

Modernists are utopians, they believe modernity is always something better. We will have to see that, human nature tells me differently. Caste barriers were not imposed, people created them themselves to protect their income for their family. Burn them down and you will feel the annihilating force of capitalism and some people will get tremendously rich but the hundreds of millions will die having no more protection. Inefficiency and corruption is seen as evil. But maximum efficiently simply means that the capital provider can produce with sharing the least of income with others. Inefficiency means that more money leaks into the local system.

That is why Dutch colonialists forbid their employees to marry with natives. Then money would bleed away. Why did the colonialist spread Christianity in their colonies? Well simple, because it served their system. A slave system is served with a slave ideology that forbids people to rise against injustice and teaches them to accept hardship. That tells them to put their hope on the afterlife instead. Just like Iskcon leaders teach their servants to concentrate on Moksha while they take care of their children.

Varna by guna is utopian. Who is going to determine that? In reality it is will simply mean varna is determined by people in power. Like Iskons self-appointed rulers now give brahmana dicksha to who serve their needs best. It is much better to try to uphold a wall against the forces of power and greed.