Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

[Avyaydya]

I see no proof or evidence to believe in your statements here i) there are so many IIT and brilliant medical students enrolled in Universities all over India, (and elsewhere), I am sure many of them would be a perfect fit for procuring vedic studies too. There is simply no proof to your personal belief that " The whole idea that all people are equally talented and that this is randomly evenly distributed among all layers and groups in society is not true. ". Stating something that has to do with some Jewish groups proves nothing w.r.t this statement of yours, actually.

To bad for you the numbers say otherwise

ii) "Reality is that some people have been longer on this world, having been reborn more often in the process Samsara. They are literally "leading" us. No reason to get jealous. Rather we should profit from their more subtle minds to guide us."

Yes, it is true, but this does not correspond with 'Brahmana Varna' exquisitely. Modern day brahmanas might be against untouchability, but it needed one Dr. Ambedkar, of 'non-dwija varna' to bring about great social revolution of abolishing this evil. Needless for me to say, we all need to learn from personalities like him and not paint a picture that 'Brahmanas are born closer to god'.

When souls are reborn they seek to be reborn in the same family. People with similar consciousness naturally cluster even if a lot of variety remains. Even in life we say: Birds of a feather flock together. The same happens across the lives. What is so difficult to understand about that?

It is fallacy to think that you debunk something by presenting an exception. that works in theory, but in practice we say: exception proves the rule.

This Untouchability is blown way out of proportion by Christians trying to destroy Hinduism. In the richest land in the world, the USA, a quarter lives below the poverty line, many grow up in destitute, they are not called untouchables but losers. That is an even bigger shame. So stop blaming the Brahmanas for what Westerners did to India.

Read this and be enlightened

[Viraja]

So you want me to read something that looks like a 'bit notice' and be educated about India, where the real outcry of those ancient 'untouchables' to you is all 'made by Westerners to India'! What a pity! I have read numerous instances of untouchability happening not to just ordinary people but also very, very exalted saints, from Jnaneshwar to Sri Thiruppanazhwar, that too, way, way back before British rule of India. Jnaneshwar's parents were told to commit 'suicide' by jumping in water for their children to be accepted into Brahminhood by local Brahmins which they did, but the 3 children, including sant Jnaneshwar weren't even accepted into Brahminhood, even out of mercy by these very same Brahmanas!

And none of the Brahmins of olden times (except Sri Subrahmanya Bharathi) played a major role in abolishing this evil! If they are all truly heavenly, it (untouchability) shouldn't have happened in the first place. Please don't brush aside the tears of numerous people of the olden times!

And, I am indeed reading all the 10th and 12th std results from public examinations every year - contrary to the 'numbers' you seem to proclaim, only non-Brahmins on the majority are scoring high these days! Really, really brilliant scores! An applause to them!

[Avyaydya]

So you want me to read something that looks like a 'bit notice' and be educated about India, where the real outcry of those ancient 'untouchables' to you is all 'made by Westerners to India'! What a pity! I have read numerous instances of untouchability happening not to just ordinary people but also very, very exalted saints, from Jnaneshwar to Sri Thiruppanazhwar, that too, way, way back before British rule of India. Jnaneshwar's parents were told to commit 'suicide' by jumping in water for their children to be accepted into Brahminhood by local Brahmins which they did, but the 3 children, including sant Jnaneshwar weren't even accepted into Brahminhood, even out of mercy by these very same Brahmanas!

And none of the Brahmins of olden times (except Sri Subrahmanya Bharathi) played a major role in abolishing this evil! If they are all truly heavenly, it (untouchability) shouldn't have happened in the first place. Please don't brush aside the tears of numerous people of the olden times!

Playing for sentiments are we? Yes Hindus are a billion+ people, lots of injustice can be found, but compare the overall numbers to the USA and they become almost saints.

Your carefully selected examples prove nothing. We can leave it to proselyters to collect every bit of dirty laundry they can find. They put it in their database.

It is only sentiments you are playing at. How funny that western "Hindus" are so eager to slander Hinduism with fallacies.

And, I am indeed reading all the 10th and 12th std results from public examinations every year - contrary to the 'numbers' you seem to proclaim, only non-Brahmins on the majority are scoring high these days! Really, really brilliant scores! An applause to them!

I am claiming none of this. Spiritually advanced is something different than intellectually advanced. Psychopaths can have a superior intellect and be the most "intelligent" people and also be clever and manipulative. I would never call Jesuits stupid. They are demoniacally clever.

Your idea that doing higher education is a sign of having a spiritually advanced mind is wrong. Is that Iskconite teaching?

[Viraja]

I feel really ashamed to be the only person to speak out against what had been widespread 'social evil' of olden times, practiced by Brahmanas. You said, "untouchability was created by Westerners in India". I negated it and gave proofs (valid ones) and now you jumped off the topic to say 'proselytizers' would see it to their advantage! Perhaps you cannot answer the question how come 'so spiritually advanced Brahmanas' supported 'untouchability' for so long in olden days??

If numbers in board examinations cannot speak of 'brilliance', what then speaks for you in your claim that 'Brahmanas are by birth (majority of them) "spiritually advanced"?? You too don't have any proof to claim that. To me, atleast, intellectual brilliance speaks of a way for many non-Brahmanas to fair well, given a choice of learning Shastras.

If at all there is a thing called 'spiritual advancement' that only comes by seeing beyond the limitations of varna. Please come forward and appreciate the offerings and fruits of true labor that the labor-class exhibits, which many of us Brahmanas can never match with! Let us appreciate 'humanity' as a whole, let us not just appreciate one portion of it and see them in exalted light, for none of the sort really exists.

This will be my last post on this topic.

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[Sudas Paijavana]

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[Viraja]

Avyaydya is simply trying to say that an Abrahamic-like mindset has infiltrated Hindu mentality (be it in the West; be it in the East). He is only asking for the separation of the two - this is something the Sapta-Rishis would agree with and even the Deva-s would agree.

Plus, not all Bohmans are evil, castist, elites. Many walk on the road without sandals going from house to house begging for roti.

It is actually the opposite of what I am trying to say. Avyaydya seems to think being born a Brahmana is 'superior' as they are all 'spiritually advanced' and have 'deva blood'. I am just saying 'no' to these assumptions of his. There are good and bad people all over the place, in all varnas, so also do the spiritually advanced exist all over the place, not particular to any varna.

And, Ambedkar was an anti-Hindu; he exploited castism even more - he was basically starting off from where the British left off. This is the same dude who literally had a party with many people where they were throwing hundreds of copies of Manusmriti into a fire.

The Reservation Laws in India are a joke. They are like the horrid Affirmative Action in the US.

It doesn't matter what qualifications you have, you will get the job and the "upper caste" will not.

Tamil Brahmins are discriminated in their own state. Nambudiris (the most Vedic Brahmins of the modern era) are even more discriminated: they were almost wiped out during the Moppila Riots (which was supported by the then Congress Party).

I was never talking about the present day of pitiable conditions for Brahmins. Irrespective of the plight of Brahmanas today, it is a fact that in olden days, they practiced untouchability to the core. This does not speak of any 'spiritual advancement guaranteed via birth as Brahmana'. (I do not know why Ambedkar acted that way, but it is a fact that his contribution went a long way towards abolishing untouchability, which needed to go away from the society).

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

Constant terms such as bible this, jesus that, western religion whstever keeps coming up.

Classic attempt at "guilt by association", even though I have NO association with any of that.

Vedas are the authority.

[Avyaydya]

Avyaydya seems to think being born a Brahmana is 'superior'

and

You said, "untouchability was created by Westerners in India".

You are a twister of words. I explained it for you and you repeat the same lie. That is okay, I am glad you drop your mask.

Whenever Christians enter a country they want to destroy, the underprivileged are the people they convert first, often with bribery. Then they make them into martyrs and turn them against the rest, creating deep division. That is how they did it time and time again throughout history. That is how they are doing it today. It is their modus operandi. Like it is also their custom to infiltrate and try to create discord.

This English Lord also tells it how it is done here. And that is exactly what they did. It is only the sheer mass of people and the intelligence of the Brahmins that they did not succeed. But they will zealously go on. In my mind Iskcon is simply their tool in this, even if the heavily indoctrinated Veda quoting flock are not aware of this. They are the work slaves, the servants. (That is what Christianity is: a slave system.) They are so docile, they even let their own children be abused.

Iskcon is a Troyan horse, that in a covert way is smuggling Christian ideas into Hinduism and undermining its traditional structures.


Hindu forums are flushed with Iskcon ideology that is basically cleverly cloaked Christianity. Something the Jesuits are masters in. Krishna = Jesus, Vedas = Bible, Salvation = Moskha, fall from Vaikunda = fall from paradise, etc.

That is how Christianity works. In the bible they do the same thing, everything is redefined. : Truth = Bible, Love for God = blind obedience, Love from God = mercy, not being put in hell, neighbour = he who accepts Jesus, different God = Demon, justice = double standards for believers and unbelievers, etc.

I do not care about Iskconites, they are indoctrinated, slavish and beyond convincing, I care about real Hindus to wake up and see through this deceit. Actions speak louder than words. We should not judge people on their words, but their actions. It is easy to declare love for Krishna. But actions speak louder than words and are more difficult to mask. Adharmic people will always be surrounded by scandals of suppression of women, sexual abuse, child abuse, even murder. That should wake us up.

[Sudas Paijavana]

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[satay]

Namaste viraja,

You are twisting Avyaydya's words. Brahmanas are superior, period. There is no ifs and buts about that.

Not sure why so many Hindus like you have indigestion about the facts and why we must change Hinduism to accommodate your apprehension and indigestion problem.

No, we won't change Hinduism because of your indigestion problem.

Avyaydya seems to think being born a Brahmana is 'superior' as they are all 'spiritually advanced' and have 'deva blood'. I am just saying 'no' to these assumptions of his. There are good and bad people all over the place, in all varnas, so also do the spiritually advanced exist all over the place, not particular to any varna.

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