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Thread: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

  1. #21

    Re: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

    Also, satay hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the huge karmic burden that brahmins have in learning and teaching the veda.

    In Hinduism, it's not exactly the case that "rank has its privileges." The "higher" up one goes on the varNa ladder, the greater is the responsibility, the greater are the expectations by society, and the greater are the consequences for failing to carry out one's prescribed duties.

    In viShNu purANa, sage vyAsa states that in kali-yuga, it is the women and the shUdra-s who have the greatest advantage in going after mokSha, since their duties are simpler and do not have the exacting requirements of those required of brahmin males. For example, brahmins have to rise before sunrise, chant their sandhya prayers, study shruti, follow all kinds of vrata-s etc, and if they fail to do those things, they are incurring sinful reactions by their failure. It's quite accurate to say that the deck is actually stacked *against* brahmins, especially in this day and age.

    The central problem of explaining these things to Westerners, in my observation, is that the latter are completely fixated on an "equal opportunity" kind of mentality. If one group is not allowed to study veda, they see it as "discrimination." In their view, everyone should be able to do whatever he or she wants.

    This kind of thinking is alien to the traditional Hindu mindset. Traditional Hindus saw their jAti-varNa as synonymous with the community to which they belonged, and the more educated among them correctly saw their prescribed duties not as an imposition, but as the particular service to bhagavAn that is assigned to them. When you are given the opportunity to serve The Lord of the universe, and told that this is the service by which He will be pleased, you do not whine that someone else's service is better and that you want that, instead. This kind of mentality is not bhagavAn-centered, it is self-centered.

    There are many statements in shAstra to effect that brahmins are very dear to Lord Krishna. There are also statements to the effect that Lord Krishna is very attracted to the simple bhakti of the women of Vraja or the prayers of the damsels dwelling in Dwaaraka, preferring their praises over the Vedic mantras of the brahmins. How everyone can simultaneously be Sri Krishna's favorite is something that can only be appreciated when one first understands the conventions of the varNa system. It makes it that much sweeter when one sees The Lord of the Universe chasing after a simple, uneducated, but highly devoted soul who happens to be of "low" varNa.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  2. #22

    Re: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

    delete
    Last edited by Sudas Paijavana; 17 January 2014 at 09:27 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

    Namaste

    What a pleasant surprise. I thought for sure my posts would have been removed, I was very reluctant to even look at HDF to see, yet when I looked they were still there (typos and all).

    You know, I have to tell you all a story which willl explain why I have decided to accept in peace for those we (yes "we" as in Western Hindus my friends who always bug me with questions and demands) love and that is all Indian Hindus, and will tell my friends of the West the following concession:

    * The Vedas are for Brahmin priests

    So now the story. One of the great religious leaders beloved by Americans and an historical figure to American history is A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Oddly, He appeared briefly in the late afternoon in a short dream when I took a nap yesterday. He gave a smile and said a confusing thing, the words "... read to me my translation of the Rig Veda". I was totally confused, but very happy to see Prabhupad, and I said something that was "But Prabhupad, you never translated the Rig Veda". Then He smiled and opened a door to leave but looked back and smiled again, "No I didn't"...

    It occured to me later, that was very true. Prabhupad never did translate that Veda, nor any other Veda. And He wasn't the only one famed in America among Americans as great religious Gurus and teachers.

    Then it occurred to me, that's very true. Yet look at the amazing success and Hindu Renaissance they brought to America and the world!

    So perhaps it is true. After all, Western Hindu laymen have no interest in being priests. They just want to have bhajans, go to temple, read Ramayana and life of the Saints and such. Actually, they are not interested at all in Vedas, even if they also love Indra and Kubera and Vayu and Agni. So, maybe Prabhupad had a true sense and endowment.

    So I will leave it at that, peace to all and have a wonderful evening. I have a huge collection of Ramayanas, commentaries on Ramayana and books on Hanuman. Believe me, it is a lot of books. I have a lot of Saiva and Hindu books, too. About a year or more ago, I got a translation of the Rig Veda. I said I would study it. That study lasted 2 days. I could not go two days without that call from the Ramayana and the vast history and I guess I am a Ramayana fanatic. But that's ok. So I will leave it at that. But just one word of warning. About 15 or more years ago, I started authoring a book. It was a "baby in progress". It was called "The New World Ramayana". Only a few chapters were completed, the first chapter was "Mount Meru". It included notes from India from very good sources, very good. Then I lent it to a Shakta to brief and give an opinnion. He stole it, and he was a liar saying he burned it because he said "Gandhi wouldn't approve it since it is too intriguing". Then he died. In one way, it was a compliment, he thought it was very good. But it is still in my head. And probably if I write it, some are going to be mad at me. But it will be an ultimate Action and Adventure. So be forewarned.

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    Namaste,

    This is related to the discussions on this thread, but is in the inquisitive approach (meaning questionary):

    What about Vaishyas that are instituted into tutelage under well knowledgeable Brahmin priests who teach the Vaishyas Mantra recitation and the studying of the Vedas?

    Is it okay? It is a very exclusive number of Vaishyas that are under such tutelage, though. Which makes sense. Because, not everyone can go through such hardcore tutelage. And, the Brahmins that have invited these students are Smarthas and even Shrautas of high Brahmin castes (Shukla's, Pandey's, Agnihotri's, Trivedi's, and Suryapuri)...

    Just asking; please ignore my post if you do not have an answer.

    ps - The Brahmins in this case are not motivated by monetary means (they aren't asking a lot of money or materialistic things of that nature); they are intrigued by the flagrant interest the Non-Brahmins have in learning the Vedas and they have even exemplified their interests by recitations and memorizations of Shruti scriptures....

    ps#2 - This happened in Baroda, Gujarat with a few cousins of mine who were initiated into the Brahmin Jati after the completion of their tutelage by Shrautas ....
    Namaste,

    Please do not expect an answer of this question from HDF members. This requires judgement, which only an authority can give. One must take this issue and approach Shankaracharya-s or Gaudapadacharya Mathadhipati or other mathadhipati-s of various other sampradaya like Vaishnava, Shaiva, etc.

    As said by Philosoraptor ji, the idea is to reach Bhagavan. The means are different. Some varNa-s are given tough routes, some easy.

    On another note,


    I have read somewhere that even Shri Madhavacharya ji also mentioned that itihAsa purANa-s convey the same meaning as said by veda-s. they are also an authority. The only difference is their way of expression of truth. They may be written in different chanda-s, but convey the same meaning, needless to say that Bhagavan Veda Vyas has authored them.

    To simplify things does not mean that it is watered down.


    ---

    It should also be mentioned that without smoke there is no fire. So it is quite possible that *some* Brahmins may have or may take undue advantage of the respect given by them.

    Lastly, only 1 % veda-s are extant. Hence much info might be lost that would give more clarity on varNa-Ashrama.

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  5. #25

    Re: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

    delete
    Last edited by Sudas Paijavana; 17 January 2014 at 09:28 PM. Reason: irrelevant to thread OP

  6. #26

    Re: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    Pranam,

    You make valid points in this post. And, if you can, may you please help me out with my earlier post about a select few number of Vaishyas getting tutelage by Brahmins for Mantra recitation?
    I honestly did not see what the issue was here. As far as I was aware, brahmins, kShatriya-s, and vaishya-s were all eligible to have instruction in vedic mantras.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    This kind of mentality is not bhagavAn-centered, it is self-centered.
    This statement is at the heart of the matter. Sadly, the self centered virus has infected all in this yuga.

    I have to say again for the readers that being born in a specific varna actually carries a lot of obligation and I am glad that I am not born into a Brahmin family. Considering the state of brahimins around me I have to say surely it is not a privilege to be born as such in this yuga.

    And considering the number of people who actually study the ithihas and puranas, I don't know how anyone could think that it is an insult instead of a great privilege and honor to be able to do that.

    Regarding Prabhupada, he said many times that one need to worry about the Vedas in this age, that study the Gita is sufficient. In my opinion, studying the gita itself may take several life-times for me.

    Enough for today.
    Last edited by satay; 07 August 2013 at 12:08 PM.
    satay

  8. #28

    Re: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    and will tell my friends of the West the following concession:

    * The Vedas are for Brahmin priests

    So now the story. One of the great religious leaders beloved by Americans and an historical figure to American history is A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Oddly, He appeared briefly in the late afternoon in a short dream when I took a nap yesterday. He gave a smile and said a confusing thing, the words "... read to me my translation of the Rig Veda". I was totally confused, but very happy to see Prabhupad, and I said something that was "But Prabhupad, you never translated the Rig Veda". Then He smiled and opened a door to leave but looked back and smiled again, "No I didn't"...

    It occured to me later, that was very true. Prabhupad never did translate that Veda, nor any other Veda. And He wasn't the only one famed in America among Americans as great religious Gurus and teachers.

    Then it occurred to me, that's very true. Yet look at the amazing success and Hindu Renaissance they brought to America and the world!

    Om Namah Sivaya
    Haribol!
    Yes, that's PrabhupAd, and yes, those are PrabhupAd dreams or PrabhupAd hints.

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~
    Your True Self
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Namaste,



    ------Considering the state of brahimins around me I have to say surely it is a curse to be born as such in this yuga.

    ------

    Enough for today.
    If i can read your context correctly, i assume you mean their sorry state of the material condition, or the insult they have to endure getting blamed (perhaps with some justification) for the bad state the Dharma stands today, but it is never a curse to be born a Brahmin no matter which yuga.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Regarding Prabhupada, he said many times that one need to worry about the Vedas in this age, that study the Gita is sufficient. In my opinion, studying the gita itself may take several life-times for me.

    Enough for today.
    Namaste,

    This is the reason why Gita was written. It is the essence of Upanishads, which are essence or Jnana Kand of Veda-s.

    In Gita it is said, leave every dharma and surrender to me.

    How do you surrender if you do not know who Krishna is. How can mind give importance to Krishna or Ishvara if one does not know him? How can this instruction cultivate bhAva for Ishvara?

    purANa-s help create a life sketch of Bhagavan. With the help of both purANa-s and itihAsa, we come to know something about Krishna, as a person, his deeds, his glory, etc. After reading both, mind can easily be fixed on Krishna.

    Instruction was given in Gita, but bhAva was generated after reading purANa-s and mahAbhArata, which are associated with life of Krishna.

    purANa-s are important.

    Jai Sri Krishna
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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