Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

[Avyaydya]

Namaste,

a quote from Mahabharata which says a person is born as sudra, etc

I understand that this way: The babies mind is busy with their direct wants, it wants to eat, drink, sleep, be with its mother. This is similar to the state of sudra's as they primarily focus on direct wants. And this too is the reason that people are not initiated at birth but later.

But at the same time it is a powerful reminder for Brahmanas to remember that for some time they were like a sudra too.

[philosoraptor]

brahma-jijnasa,

Have you ever actually studied the chAndogya upaniShad? If so, may I ask whose commentary you studied?

thanks,

[Sudas Paijavana]

brahma-jijnasa,

Have you ever actually studied the chAndogya upaniShad? If so, may I ask whose commentary you studied?

thanks,

Philosoraptor,

Please pardon my intrusion but:

Can you please give me a good commentary that I should order and study? I would like to get a good commentary recommendation. Please help me out.

[philosoraptor]

Philosoraptor,

Please pardon my intrusion but:

Can you please give me a good commentary that I should order and study? I would like to get a good commentary recommendation. Please help me out.

This will be the subject of one of my upcoming book reviews. You'll just have to wait until then. :-) In the meantime, I await with interest, brahma-jijnasa's answer to my question.

[Sudas Paijavana]

This will be the subject of one of my upcoming book reviews. You'll just have to wait until then. :-)

Greetings,

Okay, but please inform me as soon as the book review is done and if you can please PM the book review as well; that would be really helpful. Thank you.

[Jaskaran Singh]

Greetings,

Okay, but please inform me as soon as the book review is done and if you can please PM the book review as well; that would be really helpful. Thank you.

I'm not sure if you want my opinion or not, but are you only looking for bhāṣya-s on the Upaniṣad-s, or are you looking for views on Vedānta in general? If it's the latter, then one of the books I recommend you read is the vedānta-pārijāta-saurabha (Nimbārkācārya's "commentary" on the brahmasūtra-s, so to speak), as it serves as a general overview of the views of the kumāra-sampradāya (one of the four main vaiṣṇava sampradāya-s). In addition, a translation is easily accessible and can be read online : http://goo.gl/VoDqrK

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

The question of twice born might go to the crux of the matter.

The four Vedas are traditional, not later interpretations.

In Vedic Dharma, for the One who learns the Vedas, this Vedic student is called Brahmacharin, and as the Atharva Veda outlines the rite, the parents of this student who learns the Vedas is not one's birth parents and learning the Vedas has nothing to do with birth, rather for such a student his father is his Acharya or teacher, not birth father, his mother is Savitri of the Sun, not his birth mother. This is the stipulation of the Vedas and as the Atharva Veda says (11.5.3) the Acharya upon taking the student to learn the Vedas then spiritually takes the student within the Acharya's own self making the Vedic student an embryo within, this Acharya holds the student within for three nights upon which the Devas gather to see this student born in transformation from the Archarya, who is now the student's father. This is the true Vedic second birth, the traditional act.

The Acharya was not a priest who simply performs a ceremony as what became later under caste centric sects, He was endowed in Vedic times to give a second birth from His own in actual transformation of the student to His own new brahmacharin Son. Now with his Mother as Savitri of the Sun and Acharya as Father, the Vedic student is twice born.

The Atharva Ved then clarifies (11.5.6) the Vedic student clothes himself in the black antelopeskin (as we see Lord Rudra), and does not shave but grows a long beard, much like the Acharya. The Vedic student who was first brought alms (11.5.9) to the Acharya now is One who carries also the name and reputation of his new Father the Acharya.

Here is the beauty of Vedic Dharma. This is the traditional Hindu second birth. Not caste. This is the best way to protect the Vedas from interlopers, it is too dangerous to rely on birth. Here we now have as in this Veda the Upanayana which means sheltering the student in the womb of the Acharya, and from which comes the word Upanishad or sitting near the teacher.

This is traditional Hinduism. By the way, a Brahmin who is Tamil pointed out that the Vedic Upanayana had no investiture of a Yajnopavitam or sacred thread as performed today. This might be an interesting subject of a future thread among Hindu gentlemen.

Reverence be to Rudra, reverence to the takman, reverence to the luminous king Varuna! (Atharva Ved)

Om Namah Sivaya

[Amrut]

Thank you for good explanation ShivaFan ji,

Namaste

As vedic Rishis were seers with divine eyes, they could judge inner purity. Also note that not all were accepted as disciples. Today, are there any such rishi-s or acharya-s who have divine visions? In older days, this was common. Again if we think of Gurukula type of learning, then I doubt if there is such a person here on HDF. If such divine saints are not common, then who is going to decide who is fit for taking sanyas or fit for promoting to another varNa?

I do not strickly stick to varNa by birth, but conversions were not common. Even in times of Vidura, taking e.g. of Sanat sujAtiya, he had divinity and power to involve SAnat SujAta (Sanata KumAra), but he respected the general feeling of varNa by birth.

There are ways one can override it, but common trend at least from Mahabharat days is VarNa by birth. Eklavya and karNa are another e.g. of not being taught even though they were capable (which they proved)

Thank you Avyaydya ji. Welcome

Aum

[Sudas Paijavana]

I'm not sure if you want my opinion or not, but are you only looking for bhāṣya-s on the Upaniṣad-s, or are you looking for views on Vedānta in general? If it's the latter, then one of the books I recommend you read is the vedānta-pārijāta-saurabha (Nimbārkācārya's "commentary" on the brahmasūtra-s, so to speak), as it serves as a general overview of the views of the kumāra-sampradāya (one of the four main vaiṣṇava sampradāya-s). In addition, a translation is easily accessible and can be read online : http://goo.gl/VoDqrK

Namaste Jaskaran-ji,

Your opinion matters to me. Thank you for your helpful link. It has already been bookmarked. And, I would be much obliged if you could provide bhāṣya-s on the Upanishads as well and even books that are bhāṣya-s too. Thank you.

[philosoraptor]

Pranams,

So far, in my readings, which I admit are not exhaustive, I have seen very few examples of individuals "converting" from the varNa of their birth to another varNa. And in those examples, every single one was a case of a kShatriya becoming a brahmin.

vALmIki is often heralded as a case where one can convert to the position of a brahmin from a non-dvija birth, but vALmIki's jAti is not made clear in anything I have read to date. Of note, if anyone can point me in the right direction to find this information (I believe Jaskaran said it was somewhere in the skandha purANa), I would appreciate it.

The varAha purANa contains the story of satyatapas, a sinful hunter who "became" a brahmin after he was reformed by the process of devotional service. However, later in the story, it is mentioned that satyatapas was in fact a brahmin by birth, but was orphaned and raised as a hunter.

Again, it should be stressed that the desire to do another person's duty is not very devotional and is against the spirit of the instructions given by Sri Krishna to Arjuna. That one has free will to do what he or she wants is not the issue. The issue is whether we get the Lord's grace by exercising our free will to satisfy our personal desires, or subvert our will to satisfy His desires. This is why I find the egocentric approach, i.e. "your caste is whatever you are by quality" is problematic to say the least, because it misses the whole point.