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Thread: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

  1. #101
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    Arrow Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by jignyasu
    I would like to add one more point towards the thread. A/c to SriVaishnavas there is nothing that one can get from any deity that Vishnu can't give. If we require Lord Ganesha to raise our Muladhara Chakra or remove obstacle, it would equate to saying that Krishna cannot do that. If we require Navagraha to rid us of our problem then it would mean that Rama cannot solve that problem. That's the reason why looking upto another deity is considered a setback. This is true not only for moksha but also for money, yogic siddhi, kaivalya, beautiful wife etc.
    Namaste , bandhu.

    Where is the point ? Worshipping other supreme gods doesn't mean krushn or Vishnu can't do that thing ! Then tell me, Why worshipping radha for moksh wouldn't mean Krishna can't do that ( although worshipping radha is a non-vedic practice ) ? Why worshipping durga wouldn't mean mean Krishna can't ? Why worshipping balaram wouldn't mean krishna cant do that? & so on.......

    This is one of the problem when we consider bramh as sagun bramh with form. We can't accept omnipresent nature of bramh unless we are stuck on supremacy.


    Hare Krishna govind

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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    By "Vaishnava practice," brahma jijnasa is of course referring to his understanding ...
    Do you remember that I've already said that your comments on my posts are ridiculous. Now you are going from the ridiculous towards even more ridiculous.
    Will there be at least one post of mine which you will not misunderstand or misinterpreted?

    Man, get a life!

    regards

  3. #103

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post


    Do you remember that I've already said that your comments on my posts are ridiculous. Now you are going from the ridiculous towards even more ridiculous.
    Will there be at least one post of mine which you will not misunderstand or misinterpreted?

    Man, get a life!

    regards
    Yes, I remember. You have a tendency to make puerile misinterpretations of straightforward scriptural statements (such as, for example, arguing that anAdi karma does not imply anAdi samsAra) which no reputable Vaishnava scholar would make. And then, when it is pointed out that you are going against the grain of Vaishnava Vedantic standards of interpretation, you usually respond with something along the lines of the above.

    Getting back to the point, your attempt to rationalize gaNesha worship from the standpoint of "Vaishnavism" is incorrect even as per the particular subsect of gauDIya sampradAya to which you belong. In his own books, Sri Prabhupada did not encourage the worship of gaNesha, and in fact he overtly discouraged worship of other devas when asked about it by his disciples. Although he mentions its place once in his book Nectar of Devotion, there is not a single temple established by him in which gaNesha was installed for worship. He did not, as your have suggested, try to argue that worship of gaNesha with the meditation of his inner paramAtmA was an acceptable meditation. There is no doubt that the AtmA of gaNesha also has nArAyaNa as his inner paramAtmA. The same is true of son, moon, stars, planets, jIva-s, matter, etc. However, that specific meditation (of meditating on the paramAtmA within the AtmA of gaNesha) is not recommended in shAstra - not in any universally accepted shruti, and certainly not in the bhAgavata purANa which is given the greatest importance by Hare Krishna devotees (at least, in theory.... I'm assuming a certain purity of presentation and not some self-motivated need to ingratiate one's self with other Hindus).

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Namaste , bandhu.

    Where is the point ? Worshipping other supreme gods doesn't mean krushn or Vishnu can't do that thing ! Then tell me, Why worshipping radha for moksh wouldn't mean Krishna can't do that ( although worshipping radha is a non-vedic practice ) ? Why worshipping durga wouldn't mean mean Krishna can't ? Why worshipping balaram wouldn't mean krishna cant do that? & so on.......

    This is one of the problem when we consider bramh as sagun bramh with form. We can't accept omnipresent nature of bramh unless we are stuck on supremacy.


    Hare Krishna govind
    The above is an example of the kind of hazy, confused, free-thinking that occurs when one applies expectations based on one's provincial mindset to larger, more venerable traditions outside those of his local community. First, there is no "other supreme gods" as per Vedaantic Vaishnavism, and thank goodness for that. The idea of multiple, supreme gods is inconsistent with the shruti which describes brahman as "one without a second." It also happens to defy common sense, since everyone knows there can be only one best or supreme among things. Second, jijnasu's point is abundantly clear and does not require explanation - everything can be had from worship of nArAyaNa, and thus there is no need to go to any other deity. This has been a cornerstone of Vaishnava philosophy for centuries, upheld by shruti and smRiti, and indisputably consistent and logical. Moreover, this is the Vaishnava forum, and the irony is thick that those who don't like views preached against their own views, are here preaching a view that gaNesha worship should be done in a forum dedicated to traditions endorsing the exclusive worship of nArAyaNa. Is that hypocrisy? Um.... yeah, that is. Finally, neither the bhAgavata purANa, nor the viShNu purANa, nor the upaniShad-s, nor any other principle texts of Vedantic Vaishnavism recommend the worship of gaNesha in any context, and arguing against this point because one's sectarian, family traditions hold otherwise, is an arbitrary position that is beyond ridiculous in its execution.

    Read the description: "Vaishnava Forum for discussion of Vaishnava Dharma." This isn't the forum for new-agey, free-thinkers to push their non-Vaishnava views onto those who believe in Vaishnavism. At the very least, if you are going to disagree with established Vaishnava traditions with foundations built on centuries of scholarship, you could at least offer logical, scripturally-based arguments, instead of the same old, same-old....
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  4. #104
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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Should a Vaishnava think "I do not need to worship anyone other than God (the Supreme Lord)"? Obviously not.
    Namaste brahma jijnasa,

    When a servant is employed in a house, it is implicitly understood that he serves the head of the household along with his wife, kids etc. Infact his job is much more secure when the relatives are pleased with him :-). Just because the head of the household employs him, neither can he refuse to serve his relatives nor can he start serving the owner of some other house.

    In SriVaishnavam, we regard the devotees of Sriman Narayana like Garuda, Lakshmi, VishwaksEnar, Hanuman etc., even more than we regard Him! This includes the Gurus that show the way to His Lotus Feet and none here are worshipped seperately or as supreme. Nayanmars also worshipped Lord Shiva along with family and devotees but not with a Vishnu devotee. To stretch this to indicate that Vaishnavam encourages worshipping all deities is indeed far fetched.

    And I did mention above that we do worship all deities in yagnAs and in Vishnu temples. This does include authorized Vedic hymns praising various deities having Sriman Narayana as their Atman (as per Vaishnavas). When the Lord says in Gita to worship only Him, it is not right to say that a Vaishnava does not have any provision for such an exclusive worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    This is one of the problem when we consider bramh as sagun bramh with form. We can't accept omnipresent nature of bramh unless we are stuck on supremacy.
    Pranam,

    A Vaishnava by definition is someone that holds only Lord Vishnu(with the problematic Sagun form) as the Supreme Lord.

  5. #105

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Here I will give a brief passage from the Brahma-vaivarta purana
    (Brahma-vaivarta puranam. Translated into English by Rajendra Nath Sen. Published 1920 by Panini Office in Allahabad)
    http://www.archive.org/stream/brahma...ge/11/mode/1up

    Krishna janma khanda, ch. CXXIII.54-59, p. 534.
    where Radha eulogised Ganesha "You are the supreme Brahma ... there is none superior to you ... you cause the gods to manifest themselves".

    Some people do not understand how this kind of worship of deities such as Ganesha is not actually addressed to him, ie is not addressed to Ganesha but is addressed to the Supreme Lord, Supreme Brahman.
    Namaste,

    Yes, this is exactly what I said here http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...1&postcount=75
    and also mentioned the same RAdhA-GaNesh saMvAd in Shri KRshNa KhanDa that you have sited, in post #65 on the same thread.

    But guess what, I did not just talk the talk, but also walked the walk.
    This year, I did not attend the community Ganesh aarati on Ganesh Chaturthi. What i did was, offered the things that were being cooked for Ganesh at home, to my muralIdhar, shyAmsundar (KRshNa). Then, after the people had dispersed, I went to our guest of honour, Ganapati Bappa in the sArvajanik (common) area. I slowly looked into His eyes, offered Him a red flower, and... you have no idea how He addressed / spoke to me. That was it!

    My Lord NArAyaNa was speaking thru this beautiful sAttvic Ganesh form! I just knew instantly that my Lord comes here every year to bring people together while He stays in the background. *This gave rise to the "God in Hindu Dharma" thread.

    On the 4th day - I made a nice prasadam item by instinct, offered a bowlful to Shyam at home, and immediately took the rest of it to Ganapati Bappa as surprise-naivedya for the morning arati (each morn/eve aarati , a family is assigned the puja and naivedya, so the assigned family had already brought the mittai they were offering). The idea also was to take some warm savoury food to Bappa as a change from the store-bought sweets that people usually bring.

    On visarjan day, I made Him a cute flower crown (did not have enough flowers for a vaijayanti haar). Again this was after people had dispersed, just a few remained. I sang two Ganesh and one KRshNa bhajan as we waited for the rain to stop.

    Went home. Saw Ganpati Bappa brought out with drums, for the 'mirauNuk' (procession) to send Him off. I could not stay indoors any longer. I joined the procession and danced till the end just as I would for Radha-KRshNa or Jagannath (not random or like people dance for entertainment). Some people - youth - were there just to 'enjoy themselves' - not all of them had the concept of dancing FOR the Lord, they were way up in the front. I was with Ganesh and a few ladies joined. Hoped to set example to a few.



    Sant NAmdev was smart. What I realized this Ganesh Chaturthi, he knew this upfront, and composed the aarati "ghAlin loTAngaN vandIna charaNa..."

    *However, I was not keen to attend the aarati with people and sing all those aratis and atharvashirshas. Was happy to meet Bappa alone. The antaryAmi solves puzzles when the situation actually comes up.

    _/\_
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  6. #106

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    *However, I was not keen to attend the aarati with people and sing all those aratis and atharvashirsha. Was happy to meet Bappa alone. The antaryAmi solves puzzles when the situation actually comes up.
    Regarding atharvashIrsha, I never joined the ladies in my neighbourhood in it. Once, on a random chaturthi, they invited me. I kept talking to KRshNa - "I don't know what to do" "Do what you think is best"

    I decided to stay back with KAnhA, and He was happy with this. Had the most divine few moments with Him. However, when I took the prasad to Ganapati Bappa this year, they chanted the Ganapati atharvashIrsha, I stayed and just listened with closed eyes. It was very meditative, and did not want it to stop. Becs this time it hardly mattered - the tvam bramhA tvam vishnu.... did not bother me. Becs it is always Shri Hari my Lord, NArAyaNa, and NO ONE ELSE. Nothing can 'take Him away'

    It is funny that my Ganesh festival experience was just like Radha's in Radha-Ganesh samvad, BVP. Had not noticed that till right now as I type The only difference is, She worshipped GaNEsh with an objective to never be seperated from KRshNa again ever (just as the Gopis prayed to KAtyAyani, Durga maa to get KRshNa as husband). Whereas, I just wanted to welcome and honour GaNesh (becs that would indirectly please VAsudeva, KRshNa), but what a surprise the Lord gave!

    Just imagine, you go to visit someone becs it is 'proper' or to honour them, and you find out its nobody but your Beloved in disguise

    Jai GaNesha Deva!
    om namo narayanaya namo namo narayanaya om namo narayanaya namo namah
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    they chanted the Ganapati atharvashIrsha, I stayed and just listened with closed eyes. It was very meditative, and did not want it to stop. Becs this time it hardly mattered - the tvam bramhA tvam vishnu.... did not bother me. Becs it is always Shri Hari my Lord, NArAyaNa, and NO ONE ELSE. Nothing can 'take Him away'
    I would say just this:

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa
    Some people do not understand how this kind of worship of deities such as Ganesha is not actually addressed to him, ie is not addressed to Ganesha but is addressed to the Supreme Lord, Supreme Brahman.


    regards

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    Question Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by bramha jijnyasa
    Here I will give a brief passage from the Brahma-vaivarta purana
    (Brahma-vaivarta puranam. Translated into English by Rajendra Nath Sen. Published 1920 by Panini Office in Allahabad)
    http://www.archive.org/stream/brahma...ge/11/mode/1up

    Krishna janma khanda, ch. CXXIII.54-59, p. 534.
    where Radha eulogised Ganesha "You are the supreme Brahma ... there is none superior to you ... you cause the gods to manifest themselves".

    Some people do not understand how this kind of worship of deities such as Ganesha is not actually addressed to him, ie is not addressed to Ganesha but is addressed to the Supreme Lord, Supreme Brahman.
    Namaste bramh jijnyasa.

    I really didn't understand this. I don't want to down your view. I appreciate it but I request you to explain me that. You are saying that one is praising ganesha as supreme bramhan means krishna is supreme bramhan, as if translation of supreme bramhan is bhagavan Krishna.

    Why radha eulogized ganesha if he is not supreme bramh ? How 'ganesha is supreme bramh' doesn't mean 'ganesha is not supreme' ? & how 'ganesha is supreme bramh' means 'only krishna is bramh' ?

    I think Radha knows better than us who is lord krishna, what is his true nature. She realised that krishna and ganesha are one, the difference between them is only of the form. However their real nature is satchitanand only. Radha was situated in the atmik bliss where mind and it's products like form doesn't remain and that form is not applicable for bramh.


    Thank you. Ram Krishna Hari ♥

  9. #109

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    I think Radha knows better than us who is lord krishna, what is his true nature. She realised that krishna and ganesha are one, the difference between them is only of the form.
    This is the realization the Lord gave, seperately, on this Ganesh Chaturthi. (had no BVP or any shastra in mind.)

    However, says Radha, that sacchidAnanda is NArAyaNa to me as long as I am Shri

    Aham BramhAsmi
    Last edited by smaranam; 20 September 2013 at 02:10 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    I really didn't understand this. I don't want to down your view. I appreciate it but I request you to explain me that. ...
    There are two tattvas or categories of beings. One is called Vishnu tattva and the other is called jiva tattva.
    We living beings are jiva tattva category, we are jivas or jiva souls (jivatmas). Ganesha and others gods (sometimes called "demigods") such as Brahma, guna avatara Shiva, Indra, Agni, Vayu, etc. are all jivas or jiva tattva.
    The other category is called Vishnu tattva. This is Lord Vishnu who appears in his various personal forms such as Narayana, Krishna, Rama, Balarama, Nrisimha, Varaha, Sadasiva, etc. They are all one and the same Lord Vishnu or the Supreme Lord or Supreme Brahman.
    Jivas, jiva souls or jiva tattva are not the Supreme Lord but are subordinate to Him.

    Ganesha is just a jiva soul and thus he is not the Supreme Lord, he is not Lord Vishnu, he is not Vishnu tattva, he is not Supreme Brahman.
    For this reason I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa
    Krishna janma khanda, ch. CXXIII.54-59, p. 534.
    where Radha eulogised Ganesha "You are the supreme Brahma ... there is none superior to you ... you cause the gods to manifest themselves".

    Some people do not understand how this kind of worship of deities such as Ganesha is not actually addressed to him, ie is not addressed to Ganesha but is addressed to the Supreme Lord, Supreme Brahman. If we carefully examine Radha's eulogy we can clearly see that the words "You are the supreme Brahma ... there is none superior to you ... you cause the gods to manifest themselves" can not be applied to Ganesha who is just a jiva soul (jivatma).
    How do we know that these words are not really addressed to Ganesha?
    Not one jiva soul or jivatma is supreme Brahman, not one jiva soul or jivatma can be described as "there is none superior to you" and also "you cause the gods to manifest themselves". Obviously only the Supreme Lord who is supreme Brahman or paramatma can be described with these words. So Radha's eulogy of Ganesha is, obviously, addressed not to him but to the paramatma or the supreme Lord situated in his heart. This paramatma is called antaryami or the Supersoul existing in everyone's heart.
    That's the point. A Vaishnava should keep in mind when gods (sometimes called "demigods"), eternally liberated souls and other divine beings have been eulogised in this manner, these words are addressed to the Lord. So they are not worshiped as an independent divinities.
    regards

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