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Thread: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

  1. #141

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    It is 9.25. My mistake. I was quoting from memory.

    There was a long discussion about it on the advaita mailing list here- http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archi...ead.html#27958
    I couldn't make heads or tails of what Vidyasankar was trying to say about this reference on the Advaita list. However, I looked at Malladi Sastry's translation of shankara-bhAShya on 9.25 - it appears he mentioned vinAyaka-s in the plural sense as being one class of bhUta-s. I didn't get the sense that he was arguing that viNAyaka was a non-vedic deity.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Namaste,

    Few queries to Vaishnava friends.

    From my understanding, all shastras including SB (1.1.2) talk about purity of mind as prerequisite to study tatva-Jnana. Hence upadesha-s for general public and sanyasins are different.

    If one has attained mental purity from meritious karma (by performing karma-kand) and good deeds, and by practicing intense sadhana, then one can live 100 % spiritual life.

    In this case, since it is end of karma kand, so no need to worship any other deity. In this context, It is logical to surrender to only one Deity and exclusively worship the Lord.

    My question is, for layman, karma-kand is not to be renounced. In this case, are they advised to chant veda mantra-s, which would even say that other deities like Ganesh or Shiva are supreme Godhead or are they instructed to chant mantra-s which praise a particular deity.

    Another question is, are there separate instructions for laymen and spiritually advanced bhakta-s?

    I have read many posts in this thread mostly by Jigyasu ji and he says that they chant mantra-s but think that narayana is residing in them.

    I would not ask to give authentic proof, just an answer, as I do not want to question honesty. We all practice what acharya-s have asked us to practice. So the question is - what have acharya-s actually asked us to do.

    Though it may look like the answer is already given in this thread i.e. exclusive devotion to Sriman Narayana, my query is - it is for for all or just for sanyasins.

    Namo Narayana
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  3. #143

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    I dislike responding to my own postings, but I just remembered the following reference which is germane to our discussion:

    tatpuruShAya vihmahe vakratuNDAya dhImahi |
    tanno dantiH prachodayAt || MNU (dp) 25 ||
    "We meditate upon that Purusha. For that purpose, we meditate upon 'Vakratunda' - the Lord of the curved trunk. May the Lord with the elephant face invigorate us." (mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad 25 - NASR)


    That would indeed seem to be a stronger reference in favor of gaNesha. How do Sri Vaishnavas interpret this?
    *bump*

    I assume that the vakratuNDa referred to here would be seen as a reference to gajanana, the nitya-suri aide to Vishvaksena?

    At first, I thought it was significant that vakratuNDa was being invoked to help with one's meditation on the puruSha, i.e. as a remover of obstacles, which would be a distinguishing trait of gaNesha. However, in the previous mantra, durgA is invoked in the same sense... so no help there.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  4. #144
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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    I dislike responding to my own postings, but I just remembered the following reference which is germane to our discussion:

    tatpuruShAya vihmahe vakratuNDAya dhImahi |
    tanno dantiH prachodayAt || MNU (dp) 25 ||
    "We meditate upon that Purusha. For that purpose, we meditate upon 'Vakratunda' - the Lord of the curved trunk. May the Lord with the elephant face invigorate us." (mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad 25 - NASR)


    That would indeed seem to be a stronger reference in favor of gaNesha. How do Sri Vaishnavas interpret this?
    I appreciate your honesty and sincerity - this is what I was talking about in MNU in another thread - it is Ganesha Gayatri mantra

    Namaste
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  5. #145
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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    *bump*

    I assume that the vakratuNDa referred to here would be seen as a reference to gajanana, the nitya-suri aide to Vishvaksena?

    At first, I thought it was significant that vakratuNDa was being invoked to help with one's meditation on the puruSha, i.e. as a remover of obstacles, which would be a distinguishing trait of gaNesha. However, in the previous mantra, durgA is invoked in the same sense... so no help there.
    EDIT: 'Vakratunda' is mentioned in Ganesh atharvashirsha - 8 as Ganesh Gayatri Mantra and in verse 9 and in . But are they considered as genuine by Vaishnava-s

    Pranams
    Last edited by Amrut; 22 September 2013 at 01:03 PM. Reason: added more info
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  6. #146

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post

    If one has attained mental purity from meritious karma (by performing karma-kand) and good deeds, and by practicing intense sadhana, then one can live 100 % spiritual life.
    It depends on what you mean by "spiritual" in this context. The beginning of vedAnta starts with the realization that the fruits obtained by karma-kANDa rituals are temporary, and that a higher goal should be sought after. It is certainly better to follow karma-kANDa if one wants temporary fruits such as promotion to heaven, however even this use of the veda is still nothing more than refined materialism.

    In this case, since it is end of karma kand, so no need to worship any other deity. In this context, It is logical to surrender to only one Deity and exclusively worship the Lord.

    My question is, for layman, karma-kand is not to be renounced. In this case, are they advised to chant veda mantra-s, which would even say that other deities like Ganesh or Shiva are supreme Godhead or are they instructed to chant mantra-s which praise a particular deity.
    A Vedantin would say that all these mantras appearing to praise other deities are supreme, are in fact praising brahman, since there can be only one supreme deity. Thus, there is no injunction against chanting such mantras as a part of one's sadhana. We who do sandhya-vandanam chant mantras invoking sun-god and sarasvatI, for example.

    Moreover, it's not the case that one should simply surrender to any one deity. One should surrender to that deity who is brahman, who is capable of giving mOkSha, which is the highest, eternal fruit.

    Another question is, are there separate instructions for laymen and spiritually advanced bhakta-s?
    Lay people can follow purANa-s/itihAsa-s and sAdhana-s prescribed therein, as directed by a qualified guru who knows vedAnta.

    I have read many posts in this thread mostly by Jigyasu ji and he says that they chant mantra-s but think that narayana is residing in them.
    There is no question about it - nArAyaNa aka brahman does reside within the jIva-s who become devas - this is mentioned clearly in the antaryAmi-brAhmaNa of the bRihadAraNyaka upaniShad.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Thank you PR ji

    Living 100 % spiritual life means the one and only goal is

    to attain moksha or
    to be at the lotus feet of lord or
    to serve lotus feet of lord or
    to be in union (Yog) with Paramatman, etc

    Namo Narayana
    Last edited by Amrut; 22 September 2013 at 01:19 PM. Reason: typos and corrections
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Namaste Philosorsptor

    Your statement "There are no authorized Vedic hymns discussing the worship of an elephant-faced deity who is the son of Shiva", is clearly groping for an explicit reference in the Vedas of hymns to someone described very explicitly as with an elephant-face as the Son of Shiva and the name "Ganesha".

    Hymns of Vedas, and Vedas in this context means the Four Vedas, and not commentaries on the Vedas or later holy texts. Instead what is offered is the word Krishna in the chAndogya upaniSha which is a commentary.

    The Sanskrit word garuda means eagle, the verse you reference with garutmAn can mean nothing more than comparing the supreme to a flying eagle or the constellation Aquilla and the verse does not even mention Vishnu in this context but does mention Indra as is typical because there are many such hymns to Lord Indra. This is not an explicit reference in description as you demand of Ganapati as Son of Shiva.

    So while I do not deny Garuda for example (I have a Murti of Garuda from Nepal on my altar), I am asking the fair question which you put in the context of the Cosmic Family of Shiva such as Ganapati, whether there is an explicit reference in the Vedas to members of the Cosmic Family of Vishnu such as Ananta or Garuda, or such explicit references to Ram or Krishna.

    I am told the Vedas give praise to 33, including for example Indra. Now I can say why the Vedas do not say the name Ram, because Ram and His history here on Earth was an event still to come.

    I do not need an explicit reference to cherish Ganapati, Ram, Garuda and so on. There is no explicit reference to Hanuman, so what? From my perspective, the events of the Ramayana on Earth planet came later after Indra killed the Serpent Snake, the Ramayana discusses Ram and Hanuman and not the Four Vedas, which makes sense to me since the focus of some Vedas is on yagna or sacrifice and homas and rites. This does not mean Hanuman or Ram should not have puja.

    If some Vaishnavas do not want to give puja to Ganapati, then they should do whatever is their tradition. I know for a fact, that some Vaishnavas to offer pujas to Ganesha.

    But if you are looking for explicit hymns in the Vedas regarding members of one Cosmic Family or another, as some criteria for what is proper for puja, then perhaps you should give puja to Indra. Even Indra must still exist, since there is a very clear and explicit reference to Indra in the story of Govardan Hill even though some Vaishnavas have told me the purport of this Govardan Hill means from the time of Krishna and forward this means one should worship Krishna for what Indra may provide. I don't know about that in detail, but I think Indra is still holding the position in Indra Loka before and after Govardan. He certainly exists.

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post

    As a pramana, they are find their mention in smriti-s like atri, vasistha, gautam, shankha, etc.

    शतरुद्रियमथर्वशिरस्त्रिसुपर्ण ... महाव्रतम्* ।
    Shankha Smriti 19.4,

    म्धून्यघमर्षणमथर्वशिरो रुद्रा ... पावनानि ।
    Gautam Smriti 19.6
    These pramanas refer to the authentic atharvashirsha upanishad which is accepted by all vedantins and can be found here- http://siddhantadeepika.blogspot.in/...-22-nd-in.html

    The rest of the atharvashirshas are of doubtful authenticity.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    I couldn't make heads or tails of what Vidyasankar was trying to say about this reference on the Advaita list. However, I looked at Malladi Sastry's translation of shankara-bhAShya on 9.25 - it appears he mentioned vinAyaka-s in the plural sense as being one class of bhUta-s. I didn't get the sense that he was arguing that viNAyaka was a non-vedic deity.
    You might want to read the rest of the posts on the topic. There are various interpretations, and it is not clear that Shankaracharya is speakung of Vinayaka in the plural.

    I am not claiming that Shankaracharya considered Vinayaka a non-Vedic deity. I was just pointing out this controversy as it is germane to the topic being discussed.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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