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Thread: Accuracy in words...

  1. #1
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    Accuracy in words...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    When one wishes to learn anything ( in this case sanātana dharma) It is done via knowledge . This knowledge is transferred via communication
    composed of words & sentences that make up the ideas imbedded in the knowledge offered.


    So, it seems when we communicate the accuracy¹ of our words should be of great import. It is no different then giving directions. One likes to
    get the proper directions to get to a location. Accuracy in communication and therefore words are relevant to any learning, and valued conversation.

    Now why do I mention this ? I have found over the years that on many occasions what I have read, then researched ( by word definitions) where off the mark. That is, that author improvised or perhaps thought ' this is best for the reader, vs. that actual statement found in this śloka, śāstra or sūkta. After more research I could see how that person came to that conclusion but thought it sure world be worthy of one's time to start with the actual/original words then offer one's interpretation, opinion, point of view. This in many cases is called bhāṣā ¹ or bhāsa¹ which I greatly respect. But I am informed of this up front.


    This is why you see me on all occasions define the words I think are new to the reader. And these words are researched so I get the
    best definition I have with the level of consciousness I possess today. Also I benefit greatly by the research as it takes me to more hidden meanings that the wise offer us... so, all of us win.

    What good can come from words that are off the mark, inaccurate? They steer the reader in a direction that is unfavorable at least and misses the point of the writer's idea at most.


    What could be more important then insuring the words that another digests is as accurate & truthful (satyatā¹) as possible ? Please consider this when you post.


    But what does one do when they do not know the core idea, or accuracy of the word or words offered ? One can inform the reader ' to the best of my ability I understand this word or idea to mean this (fill in the blank)______'. Or I am uncertain of this but _______, or this is my assessment, or it is my conjecture this means ________' .

    ... these are just some ideas. Do as you see fit.

    iti śivaṁ
    • accuracy:
      • yathārthatā = accordance of a name with its meaning ; suitableness
      • śuddhi = correctness , accuracy
    • satyatā - truth ; 'to become fully recognised in one's true character'
    • bhāṣā - language, some call this gentle talk; description , definition
    • bhāsa - light , luster , brightness ; impression made on the mind
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #2

    Re: Accuracy in words...

    Dear yajvan,

    Wordless wisdom is conveyed through words. The choice of words and the method of conveying both have to be correct. Otherwise people will end up missing the Darshana.
    Some times the Darshan is got, but the conveying mechanism may have some faults.
    At other times vision is not got ... so any number of words a person knows may be insufficient !

    So there is a systematic and paramparic way of learning.
    Whether or not you got the darshan is something only you know ... and the only way others can know is ... give you a benefit of doubt and when you convey to them what you see in such a way that they too may see !!

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  3. #3
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    Re: Accuracy in words...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    Dear yajvan,
    Wordless wisdom is conveyed through words. The choice of words and the method of conveying both have to be correct. Otherwise people will end up missing the Darshana.
    While what you offer is directionally correct it applies to only one category. communication can ( and does) occur on 4 possible levels, albeit the reader on HDF my have not experienced all of them:
    • vaikharī - speech in general; speech in the fourth of its four stages from the first stirring of the air or breath ,
      articulate utterance , that utterance of sounds or words which is complete as consisting of full and intelligible sentences
    • madhyama - being or placed in the middle , middlemost , intermediate , central ; mental speech
    • paśyantī - seeing or ~beholding~. It is more of clairvoyance, the notion of 'higher' seeing. It is not part of our mundane experience and used via the highly evolved beings.
    • parā - the highest ; 'beyond'. This some would say is telepathic.
    So, as one evolves the 'tools' available to him/her become more refined as a sender and receiver of communication.

    Now that said, I must be honest, I cannot discern what you are trying to communicate in this sentence:
    Whether or not you got the darshan is something only you know ... and the only way others can know is ... give you a benefit of doubt and when you convey to them what you see in such a way that they too may see

    You need not respond, but I will guess if I cannot comprehend what you have offered there may be other HDF readers also scratching their heads.

    iti śiva
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #4

    Re: Accuracy in words...

    Dear Yajvan,


    "Whether or not you got the darshan is something only you know ... and the only way others can know is ... give you a benefit of doubt and when you convey to them what you see in such a way that they too may see"

    I have seen the moon, and suppose someone is searching for moon ... I can show him the moon. How does he know I have seen the moon ? Only means of knowing is to give me the benefit of doubt ... and say "Plz show" ... and "as I show he or she should be open to seeing" and then as he sees what I show ... he sees the Moon ! That is proof enough that i have seen and now he also sees.

    With reference to Atma/Self, Everyone has Atma Darshanam already, since Atma is Self Evident but due to adhyasa[wrong superimposition], people may not be able to recognize themselves as Brahman/Atma. So what is lacking is not an Experience. One just needs knowledge to undo the ignorance born adhyasa and one will be able to recognize oneself as one IS. This is the Darshan thats presented by the shastras. If one has this darshan, one can as well convey it with the help of shastras.

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  5. #5
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    Re: Accuracy in words...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    I have seen the moon, and suppose someone is searching for moon ... I can show him the moon. How does he know I have seen the moon ? Only means of knowing is to give me the benefit of doubt ... and say "Plz show" ... and "as I show he or she should be open to seeing" and then as he sees what I show ... he sees the Moon ! That is proof enough that i have seen and now he also sees.

    With reference to Atma/Self, Everyone has Atma Darshanam already, since Atma is Self Evident but due to adhyasa[wrong superimposition], people may not be able to recognize themselves as Brahman/Atma. So what is lacking is not an Experience. One just needs knowledge to undo the ignorance born adhyasa and one will be able to recognize oneself as one IS. This is the Darshan thats presented by the shastras. If one has this darshan, one can as well convey it with the help of shastras.

    Love!
    Silence
    While this an interesting subject please inform me how this relates to the original topic of speaking clearly, accurately.

    You see, I could not read your verse within the verb-noun syntax (subject-predicate format) that is shown.
    ... give you a benefit of doubt and when you convey to them what you see in such a way that they too may see

    iti śiva
    Last edited by yajvan; 24 August 2013 at 07:13 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #6

    Re: Accuracy in words...

    Namaste Yajvan,

    As someone who is new to sanatana dharma, I wanted to let you know how much your effort in clarity is appreciated. As I read through the forum, I find that I come across many words that I am unfamiliar with. I am always grateful for the time you take to lay everything out clearly and provide definitions.

    It has actually inspired me to create my own glossary of sorts. I keep a document open as I read through the forum, and as I come across words that I don't know, I look up the definitions and add them to my glossary. Then any time I log onto this forum, I read through my glossary first to refresh my memory. I highly recommend this to anyone else who may be just learning!

    There are two sides to communication. Just as the communicator has to put in the correct effort to get their point across, the one on the receiving end also has to do their part to gain understanding.
    Om Namah Shivaya

  7. #7
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    Re: Accuracy in words...

    Namaste, Yajvan.

    After what happened on the Meditation thread, with two Sanskrit words being written the same in English, but pronounced differently in Sanskrit, it would help me if I knew how you guys actually put diacritics and dashes above letters and such.

    Does HDF have a font or something enabling me to also do that?

    It would help me out heaps, besides just copypasta things off the internet onto here.

    Thank you.

    Aum Namah Shivaya

  8. #8

    Re: Accuracy in words...

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromancer View Post
    it would help me if I knew how you guys actually put diacritics and dashes above letters and such.
    Namaste

    While you wait for the answer, and diacritics can be cool, I have an easier suggestion, which does not need anything you don't already have such as fonts.

    Shri VaishNav literature uses this simple convention. I use it all the time.

    A (long) as in kAraN (kaaaaraN)
    a (short) as in mana
    U (long) as in mumukshU, jidnyAsU, SambhU (do, cool, root)
    u (short) as in taru, karuNA
    I (long) as in sharIra
    i (short) as in smita

    n as in nAstik
    N as in kAraN, karuNA, lAvaNya, smaraNam, gaNapati
    R as in Rshi Rtu kRshNa sRshTI dRshTI (between ru and ri)
    T as in kanTha, kaThor
    t as in tAmas, tapas
    D as in DamrU, sudRDh, Dhol (daddy)
    d as in dAitva, dayA, dRshTi, dAsya (there)
    L as in aNDaL, mALa, kuLa (usually in other languages, while sanskRt keeps in simple kula, mAla, kalA, kAla as in letter)
    l as in laukik, kalA (lost)

    anuswAr (the dot, bindu above a consonant) in two sounds:
    M as in hauMsa or haMsa, kauMsa or kaMsa, gaM
    n as in mangal, pongal, anDaL, manDala

    OPTIONAL (I don't use these)
    S as in pASAN, SoDaSa (shine, shore)
    but within this there are two sounds inn devnAgari - end and middle/beginning)
    S1 (middle of word) - pASAN, viS, puSkar, AkarSaN
    S2 (beginning or end of word) - kuSal, Soka, vinAS, SambhU

    C as in Cara aCara ACArya (chair)
    c as in mAnasic, kAyic, vACic (classic, cat)

    I should make a complete chart, this has been asked more than once.

    _/\_
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  9. #9
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    Re: Accuracy in words...

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Namaste

    While you wait for the answer, and diacritics can be cool, I have an easier suggestion, which does not need anything you don't already have such as fonts.

    Shri VaishNav literature uses this simple convention. I use it all the time.

    A (long) as in kAraN (kaaaaraN)
    a (short) as in mana
    U (long) as in mumukshU, jidnyAsU, SambhU (do, cool, root)
    u (short) as in taru, karuNA
    I (long) as in sharIra
    i (short) as in smita

    n as in nAstik
    N as in kAraN, karuNA, lAvaNya, smaraNam, gaNapati
    R as in Rshi Rtu kRshNa sRshTI dRshTI (between ru and ri)
    T as in kanTha, kaThor
    t as in tAmas, tapas
    D as in DamrU, sudRDh, Dhol (daddy)
    d as in dAitva, dayA, dRshTi, dAsya (there)
    L as in aNDaL, mALa, kuLa (usually in other languages, while sanskRt keeps in simple kula, mAla, kalA, kAla as in letter)
    l as in laukik, kalA (lost)

    anuswAr (the dot, bindu above a consonant) in two sounds:
    M as in hauMsa or haMsa, kauMsa or kaMsa, gaM
    n as in mangal, pongal, anDaL, manDala

    OPTIONAL (I don't use these)
    S as in pASAN, SoDaSa (shine, shore)
    but within this there are two sounds inn devnAgari - end and middle/beginning)
    S1 (middle of word) - pASAN, viS, puSkar, AkarSaN
    S2 (beginning or end of word) - kuSal, Soka, vinAS, SambhU

    C as in Cara aCara ACArya (chair)
    c as in mAnasic, kAyic, vACic (classic, cat)

    I should make a complete chart, this has been asked more than once.

    _/\_
    Namaste.

    Thank you so much for that. I often wondered how to pronounce those things - now I know.

    Your list is very helpful to me. I shall try and do this in future.

    Aum Namah Shivaya

  10. #10

    Re: Accuracy in words...

    You are welcome, Necromancer. For pronunciation, I would watch and listen to saMskRt videos - of beginner lessons - many on you tube.
    This way, ambiguity and misunderstandings are avoided, since the "chart" I have put here is in no way comprehensive.
    Last edited by smaranam; 24 August 2013 at 07:58 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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