Why Does Lord Shri Krishna Refer to Women and Vaishyas As People of Low Origins?

[Sudas Paijavana]

Namaste,

mAM hi pArtha vyapAśritya ye'pi syuH pApayonayaH /
striyo vaiśyAs tathA śUdrAs te'pi yAnti parAM gatim //

"Even people of low origins: women, vaishyas, nay shudras, go the highest course if they rely on me, Partha." 31[9].32

Furthermore, I thought Vaishyas are Dvija?

[SanathanaDharma]

Dear Friend,

Before this thread starts to become yet another thread filled with posts from
- people who have absolutely no idea about Sanskrit, but base their pointless arguments using some ridiculous english translations found online [which seems to be the direction of the OP here also], start to degrade both the meaning and the intent of any Sanskrit verse at their will
- people who have invented their own Sanskrit version with their own grammar come and give their own personal assumptions

I very humbly request you to please understand and learn a little bit of Sanskrit which my friend will definitely help you a lot.. and then will allow you to easily understand the verse you have completely mis-interpreted from Bhagavad Gita...

With the bare minimum limited knowledge I have, which again has been obtained by the grace of Sri Krishna, the english translation provided by you is very much flawed...

I wish to not further involve in this thread as I feel this thread will turn out to be yet another endless "caste" based thread on this forum.....

[Sudas Paijavana]

With the bare minimum limited knowledge I have, which again has been obtained by the grace of Sri Krishna, the english translation provided by you is very much flawed...

Namaste,

Can you be kind enough to not only decrease your throwing of insults (which were not hidden by you calling me "friend") but to provide the "correct" translation of this verse as well?

[SanathanaDharma]

Dear Friend,

This exactly was the reply I was looking forward to, from you.....

When you created a thread with the title "
Why Does Lord Shri Krishna Refer to Women and Vaishyas As People of Low Origins?
"
you had already decided to throw insult on Sri Krishna[ofcourse which will have no effect on Purushottama], (which were not hidden by you calling Him "Lord")...

You had decided and accused and even went one step ahead to know why "that Purushottama has called women as low origin..." ...He who is the father and "Mother" of this universe..He who does not have any gender discrimination...He who has Sri Maha Lakshmi in His heart...

My dear friend, in case of any doubt please ask what is the meaning and intent of this verse...before writing it in bold that Sri Krishna refers to women as low origin...

Think it over my friend and you will understand...

One thing I want to make clear is my purpose was not to insult any one .....

A real friend is one who will oppose when you are wrong, even if you dislike it....

and as i have already told you
"I wish to not further involve in this thread as I feel this thread will turn out to be yet another endless "caste" based thread on this forum....."

[Sudas Paijavana]

When you created a thread with the title "
Why Does Lord Shri Krishna Refer to Women and Vaishyas As People of Low Origins?
"
you had already decided to throw insult on Sri Krishna[ofcourse which will have no effect on Purushottama], (which were not hidden by you calling Him "Lord")...

You had decided and accused and even went one step ahead to know why "that Purushottama has called women as low origin..." ...He who is the father and "Mother" of this universe..He who does not have any gender discrimination...He who has Sri Maha Lakshmi in His heart...

My dear friend, in case of any doubt please ask what is the meaning and intent of this verse...before writing it in bold that Sri Krishna refers to women as low origin...

Think it over my friend and you will understand...

One thing I want to make clear is my purpose was not to insult any one .....

A real friend is one who will oppose when you are wrong, even if you dislike it....

and as i have already told you
"I wish to not further involve in this thread as I feel this thread will turn out to be yet another endless "caste" based thread on this forum....."

SD,

Cool story, bro.

I shall just await for notable members to help me out with the question tomorrow afternoon; I am sure Philosoraptor, Yajvan, ShivaFan, and JignyAsu will assist me fully and if I have translated this wrong, they will be more than kind enough to provide not only with a correct translation but the correct and logical application of what the verse could imply, mean, etc. etc. The title is not what you think it is, SD. It's all in your head. This is a legitimate question. So, stop getting worked up.

Edit: SD, Varna =/= caste/Jati ..... I think you are misunderstanding all of this. Have you ever even encountered this verse from Shri GItA before? Do you even know Sanskrit? If not, how in the world do you know that it is mis-translated?!?! *pāpa-yonaya(h)* literally means *from degradation/degraded origin/low-origin/tainted family origin/low standing/wrongful origin/born of degradation* ....

[Sudas Paijavana]

Dear Notable Members,

Is the following a better translation than the one in the OP?

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-09-32.html

[Sudas Paijavana]

Dear Notable Members,

Even the Iskconites have a very similar translation of the verse in question:

http://www.asitis.com/9/32.html

TEXT 32

mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te 'pi yanti param gatim

SYNONYMS

mam--unto Me; hi--certainly; partha--O son of Prtha; vyapasritya--particularly taking shelter; ye--anyone; api--also; syuh--becomes; papa-yonayah--born of a lower family; striyah--women; vaisyah--mercantile people; tatha--also; sudrah--lower-class men; te api--even they; yanti--go; param--supreme; gatim--destination.
TRANSLATION

O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth--women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]--can approach the supreme destination.

[Sudarshan]

Dear Friend,

This exactly was the reply I was looking forward to, from you.....

When you created a thread with the title "
Why Does Lord Shri Krishna Refer to Women and Vaishyas As People of Low Origins?
"
you had already decided to throw insult on Sri Krishna[ofcourse which will have no effect on Purushottama], (which were not hidden by you calling Him "Lord")...

You had decided and accused and even went one step ahead to know why "that Purushottama has called women as low origin..." ...He who is the father and "Mother" of this universe..He who does not have any gender discrimination...He who has Sri Maha Lakshmi in His heart...

My dear friend, in case of any doubt please ask what is the meaning and intent of this verse...before writing it in bold that Sri Krishna refers to women as low origin...

Think it over my friend and you will understand...

One thing I want to make clear is my purpose was not to insult any one .....

A real friend is one who will oppose when you are wrong, even if you dislike it....

and as i have already told you
"I wish to not further involve in this thread as I feel this thread will turn out to be yet another endless "caste" based thread on this forum....."

There is nothing grammatically wrong with Sudas translation. Even Shankaracharya has done it very similarly. The question you should have answered is why this translation is inferior to the one you have in your mind.

[Necromancer]

Namaste.

Short answer?

1. It's because women bleed and don't tell others when they do, so they are considered disgusting and 'unclean' all month! Back then, it was just less...sanitary.

2. Because Shudras were generally outcasts like criminals, the homeless, the destitute and beggars.

Vaishyas were the street stall market owners and lowly merchants who were often bundled in among them.

"low origins" - not royalty, rich nor even a Brahmin.

Aum Namah Shivaya.

[philosoraptor]

First, shUdras were not outcastes.

Second, it has been discussed many times on these forums that the birth you get is based on your previous guNa and karma. When you get that birth, you then have to follow the dharmas reserved for that birth.

What Sri Krishna is referring to here is the traditional view that a birth as a vaishya, shUdra, or woman is due to less sAttvik guNa/karma than that which results in a birth as a brahmin, kShatriya, or male. Note that this is a generalization, since no one can imagine that the birth of a daughter into a devotee's family can be lower than that of a birth of a son into, say, a Muslim family. Karma is complicated, but the general rule is that "good" guNa/karma results in a birth higher up on the varNa ladder.

The point Sri Krishna is making here is that even people of lower birth such as vaishyas, shUdras, and women, (or, depending on how you interpret it, people of lower birth, as well as vaishyas, shUdras, and women), can still reach the ultimate goal by worship of Him.

Differences of high and low, although real, do not disqualify one from approaching the Lord with sincerity of feeling, and ultimately surrendering to Him and seeking His grace.