...And receiving it!Originally Posted by philosoraptor
No disagreement intended. I just thought this worth pointing out.
Mumukṣin
...And receiving it!
No disagreement intended. I just thought this worth pointing out.
"One who makes a habit of prayer and meditation will easily overcome all difficulties and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life." (Holy Mother Sarada Devi)
Hare Krishna
To me, it only appears that Sri Krishna may have said the above w.r.t women because women aren't being initiated into the holy Gayathri japa, they aren't doing tarpanam to their father, they don't have the right to cremate, nor are they observing great sacrifices (in olden days). Thus, they do very minimal to the Lord, in many households even to this day, women do not do everyday puja, it is the male of the household does it, while women may be preparing the material needed for puja and cleaning the puja place. Thus, for doing very minimal (that being what is expected of them), the reward is truly great because it is very difficult being born a woman with the right mindset and devotion. As Bharatiyar put it, "Mangayarai pirakka maadavam puridhal vendum amma" (One has to do great tapasya to be born a woman).
jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar
searching for rasa
Actually, women did perform yagna. In fact, in many yagnas performed by householders, men were not allowed to begin the yagna without their dharma-patni present.
I have previously quoted rAmAyaNa, ayOdhya-kANDa in which kausalyA is depicted as performing a fire sacrifice for the benefit of rAma. When I read those shLOka-s, I got the impression that brahmin priests were present, but even with that interpretation, it was also pretty clear that she was the one who had caused it to happen, and that she was an active participant.
Preparing the material needed for pUja as well as the bhOga offerings are not lower to the duties enjoined upon men. Both the pUja itself and the ancillary duties are necessary for its successful completion.
Women have some biologically-based inconveniences and conventions of periodic, ritual uncleanliness that they must bear. This is probably one reason why their birth is implied to be "lower" (i.e. due to some bad karma). Interestingly, the bhAgavata purANa indicates that this ritual uncleanliness came about when women stepped forward in ancient times to help indra rid himself of the sin of brahma-hatya. The ocean took part of the sin, as a result of which it became polluted by froth and bubbles, and women took part of it, as a result of which they got the periodic bleeding and so on. Thus, it was actually an act of forbearance, for which all future women had to pay the price of bearing the sin. It would make no sense that women of today should have to suffer this reaction to a sinful act performed millions of years ago unless it was a consequence of their individual karma. But in any case, this act of ancient women is glorified as a compassionate one.
I don't recall at present where I read this, but there are statements to the effect that a man who is excessively attached to his wife becomes a woman in his next life, while a woman who is excessively attached to her husband becomes a man in her next life. This is one reason why men are supposed to have a certain degree of regulated attachment to their wives while dharma-shAstra-s prescribe steady devotion to the husband for women. This may have been the standard in bygone days. However, both viShNu purANa and bhAgavata purANa indicate that a woman who is devoted to her husband can go to Vaikuntha as a result. When I read these statements, I had understood them not as an indirect result (that is, by getting a male birth first), but rather as a direct result of the same. In viShNu purANa, vyAsa is quoted as saying that in kali-yuga, shUdra-s and women are particularly blessed, since their paths are easier than those of men and dvija-varNa-s. It may seem strange for people to think of a woman's path as "easier," but it must be remembered that, in Vedic culture, twice-born men have many, many obligatory duties, which, when not performed properly cause one to accrue sinful reactions.
Philosoraptor
"Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato
~*~*~*~*~
praNAm
provided the husband is a pure vaishNav. Queen Archi followed her husband Maharaj Pruthu to VaikunTha. Actually, Pruthu Raja was an aMsha of the Lord Himself, NArAyaNa, and He became Bramhan-bhUta.
Archi was very devout and staunch. She stayed with her husband in the forest among extreme austerities, ate dry leaves...
True, but that does not make their existence any easier. Women have their own challenges to face. Their sAdhanA is more implicit than explicit like the men. The women have to wear many HATS, walk the ropes, hold the "fort" of relationships on either sides of their families - birth family and husband's, keep herself pure, vinamra and balanced through life, and always live for others. (What to speak of if the husband is not a devotee and does not support her devotion or even religion.)women are particularly blessed, since their paths are easier than those of men and dvija-varNa-s. It may seem strange for people to think of a woman's path as "easier," but it must be remembered that, in Vedic culture, twice-born men have many, many obligatory duties, which, when not performed properly cause one to accrue sinful reactions.
Only then her sAdhanA is a breeze
_/\_
|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
~*~*~*~*~
...but I agree that women are indeed blessed... especially if they run into that Lotus-eyed GovindA!
|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
New Member
Highest Pranam-s,
I would like to take the time and thank you all for your thoughtful answers!
searching for rasa
Pranams,
I am not clear that the husband has to be a "pure Vaishnava." I'm not even sure what "pure Vaishnava" means in this context, since, as I'm sure you are aware, Sri Prabhupada uses that term in several different ways, one indicating a devotee who does not worshp other devas, and another indicating one who is on the platform of bhAva or prEma. The bhAgavatam verses I am referring to are as follows:
santuṣṭālolupā dakṣā dharma-jñā priya-satya-vāk |
apramattā śuciḥ snigdhā patiṁ tv apatitaṁ bhajet || bhA 7.11.28 ||
“A chaste woman should not be greedy, but satisfied in all circumstances. She must be very expert in handling household affairs and should be fully conversant with religious principles. She should speak pleasingly and truthfully and should be very careful and always clean and pure. Thus a chaste woman should engage with affection in the service of a husband who is not fallen.” (bhAgavata purANa 7.11.28 - BBT)
yā patiṁ hari-bhāvena bhajet śrīr iva tat-parā |
hary-ātmanā harer loke patyā śrīr iva modate || bhA 7.11.29 ||
"The woman who engages in the service of her husband, following strictly in the footsteps of the goddess of fortune, surely returns home, back to Godhead, with her devotee husband, and lives very happily in the Vaikuṇṭha planets." (bhAgavata purANa 7.11.29 - BBT)
Looking at those verses, it does indeed seem to indicate that the wife will go to vaikuNTha if her husband, whom she faithfully served, does. That being said, the prescription for serving the husband is not qualified by the necessity of his being a "pure devotee," but only but his not being fallen (apatitaM). Also, in the rAmAyaNa, hanumAn makes a similar, but unqualified statement:
bhartA nAma param nAryA bhUShaNam bhUShaNAd api |
eShA hi rahitA tena shobhana arhA na shobhate || 5-16-26 ||
"Husband is indeed the greatest adornment for a woman greater than jewellery; this Seetha though deserving of decoration, is not looking charming without Sri Rama." (vALmIki-rAmAyaNa 5.16.26 - Rao)
And so does Kashyapa Rishi:
patir eva hi nārīṇāṁ daivataṁ paramaṁ smṛtam |
mānasaḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ vāsudevaḥ śriyaḥ patiḥ || bhA 6.18.33 ||
sa eva devatā-liṅgair nāma-rūpa-vikalpitaiḥ |
ijyate bhagavān pumbhiḥ strībhiś ca pati-rūpa-dhṛk || bhA 6.18.34 ||
tasmāt pati-vratā nāryaḥ śreyas-kāmāḥ sumadhyame |
yajante ’nanya-bhāvena patim ātmānam īśvaram || bhA 6.18.35 ||
A husband is the supreme demigod for a woman. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Vāsudeva, the husband of the goddess of fortune, is situated in everyone’s heart and is worshiped through the various names and forms of the demigods by fruitive workers. Similarly, a husband represents the Lord as the object of worship for a woman. My dear wife, whose body is so beautiful, your waist being thin, a conscientious wife should be chaste and should abide by the orders of her husband. She should very devoutly worship her husband as a representative of Vāsudeva. (bhAgavata purANa 6.18.33-35 - BBT)
No one's existence is easy. But vyAsa's point of view is that the duties of women and shUdra-s are easier than those of twice-born males, as per viShNu purANa 6.2.1-30:True, but that does not make their existence any easier. Women have their own challenges to face. Their sAdhanA is more implicit than explicit like the men. The women have to wear many HATS, walk the ropes, hold the "fort" of relationships on either sides of their families - birth family and husband's, keep herself pure, vinamra and balanced through life, and always live for others. (What to speak of if the husband is not a devotee and does not support her devotion or even religion.)
Only then her sAdhanA is a breeze
_/\_
It was once a matter of dispute amongst the sages, at what season the least moral merit obtained the greatest reward, and by whom it was most easily displayed. In order to terminate the discussion, they went to Veda Vyása to remove their doubts. They found the illustrious Muni, my son, half immersed in the water of the Ganges; and awaiting the close of his ablutions, the sages remained on the banks of the sacred stream, under shelter of a grove of trees. As my son plunged down into the water, and again rose up from it, the Munis heard him exclaim, "Excellent, excellent, is the Kali age!" Again he dived, and again rising, said in their hearing, "Well done, well done Śúdra; thou art happy!" Again he sank down, and as he once more emerged they heard him say, "Well done, well done, women; they are happy! who are more fortunate than they?" After this, my son finished his bathing, and the sages met him as he approached to welcome them. After he had given them seats, and they had proffered their respects, the son of Satyavatí said to them, "On what account have you come to me?" They replied, "We came to you to consult you on a subject on which we entertain some doubt; but that may be at present suspended: explain to us something else. We heard you say, 'Excellent is the Kali age! Well done, Śúdra! Well done, women!' Now we are desirous to know why this was said, why you called them repeatedly, happy. Tell us the meaning of it, if it be not a mystery. We will then propose to you the question that occupies our thoughts."
Being thus addressed by the Munis, Vyása smiled, and said to them, "Hear, excellent sages, why I uttered the words 'Well done, well done.' The fruit of penance, of continence, of silent prayer, and the like, practised in the Krita age for ten years, in the Treta for one year, in the Dwápara for a month, is obtained in the Kali age in a day and night: therefore did I exclaim, 'Excellent, excellent, is the Kali age!' That reward which a man obtains in the Krita by abstract meditation, in the Treta by sacrifice, in the Dwápara by adoration, he receives in the Kali by merely reciting the name of Keśava. In the Kali age a man displays the most exalted virtue by very little exertion; therefore, pious sages, who know what virtue is, I was pleased with the Kali age. Formerly the Vedas were to be acquired by the twice-born through the diligent observance of self-denial; and it was their duty to celebrate sacrifices conformably to the ritual. Then idle prayers, idle feasts, and fruitless ceremonies, were practised but to mislead the twice-born; for although observed by them devoutly, yet, in consequence of some irregularity in their celebration, sin was incurred in all their works, and what they ate, or what they drank, did not effect the fulfilment of their desires. In all their objects the twice-born enjoyed no independence, and they attained their respective spheres only with exceeding pain. The Śúdra, on the contrary, more fortunate than they, reaches his assigned station by rendering them service, and performing merely the sacrifice of preparing food, in which no rules determine what may or may not be eaten, what may or may not be drunk. Therefore, most excellent sages, is the Śúdra fortunate.
"Riches are accumulated by men in modes not incompatible with their peculiar duties, and they are then to be bestowed upon the worthy, and expended in constant sacrifice. There is great trouble in their acquisition; great care in their preservation; great distress from the want of them; and great grief for their loss. Thus, eminent Brahmans, through these and other sources of anxiety, men attain their allotted spheres of Prajápati and the rest only by exceeding labour and suffering. This is not the case with women: a woman has only to honour her husband, in act, thought, and speech, to reach the same region to which he is elevated; and she thus accomplishes her object without any great exertion. This was the purport of my exclamation, 'Well done!' the third time. I have thus related to you what you asked. Now demand the question you came to put to me, in any way you please, and I will make you a distinct reply."
The Munis then said to Vyása, "The question we intended to have asked you has been already answered by you in your reply to our subsequent inquiry." On hearing which, Krishńa Dwaipáyana laughed, and said to the holy persons who had come to see him, whose eyes were wide open with astonishment, "I perceived, with the eye of divine knowledge, the question you intended to ask, and in allusion to it I uttered the expressions, 'Well done, well done.' In truth, in the Kali age duty is discharged with very little trouble by mortals, whose faults are all washed away by the water of their individual merits; by Śúdras, through diligent attendance only upon the twice-born; and by women, through the slight effort of obedience to their husbands. Therefore, Brahmans, did I thrice express my admiration of their happiness; for in the Krita and other ages great were the toils of the regenerate to perform their duty. I waited not for your inquiry, but replied at once to the question you purposed to ask. Now, ye who know what virtue is, what else do you wish me to tell you?"
The Munis then saluted and praised Vyása, and, being freed by him from uncertainty, departed as they came. To you also, excellent Maitreya, have I imparted this secret, this one great virtue of the otherwise vicious Kali age.
Note the reasons offered by vyAsa. He says that even slight irregularities in the performance of rituals, yagnas, etc causes loss of desired fruits and even sinful reactions. This why the path of the twice-born male is so exceedingly difficult. Western (and Westernized) critics often forget this when they criticize varNAshrama dharma - they only see the privilege and social hierarchy, but completely neglect to consider the extreme responsibilities and spiritual hazards borne by those at the "top" of the varNa ladder.
This also explains why, in Kali-Yuga, being a devoted woman or a devoted shUdra may actually be better as far as attaining the goal of spiritual life is concerned.
Philosoraptor
"Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato
Namaskaarams:
Personally, I am inclined to go with the earlier post of Philoraptor which he did not emphasize and maybe has gone unnoticed.
Instead of:
O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth--women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]--can approach the supreme destination.
I would go with:
O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth, women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]--can approach the supreme destination.
The comma after lower birth is what I think is the correct interpretation (instead of the hyphen indicated) as Philoraptor mentions in his earlier post. I think this is correct also because of "api" repeated twice. If it was citing examples, I do not think Shri Krishna would have had to say "also= api" twice.
I think the proper interpretation would have to keep in mind Shri Krishna's leelas and his gentle heart does not show any disgust/revulsion to women or vaishyas and IMHO, he refers to them because they may have been traditionally seen as weaker. Thus, the "Deen Dayal" would bestow special kindness to to them. In fact, if we consider the following:
1. Shri Krishna himself was brought up by the vaishyas and they are the ones who enjoyed him the most.
2. As far as my severely limited understanding goes, There are no equals to the Gopis among Krishna bhakts and his great brahman friend Uddhav was sent to the Gopis to understand bhakti.
3. Even if we can think of the Gopis as being Kishoris, surely we cannot ignore Shri Krishna's extreme respect and fondness for Draupadi. I cannot imagine Shri Krishna referring to her as "papa - yoninah"
4. Vidura - a dasi putra was honored by Krishna above everyone (including the elders and the kulagurus) when he went as a messenger on Pandavas' behalf.
I think the shloka is apt to forcefully show his affection/mercy for the weaker sections. We have to keep in mind that this discourse is to Arjuna - a foremost skilled warrior to whom precisely the sections mentioned would be the most insignificant.
Of course, I am no student of Sanskrit and so apologies in advance if I have messed up.
Jai SitaRam
~*~*~*~*~
praNAm
Of course. The last post was not implying otherwise.
It is undisputed that the wife should serve the husband (and all jivas involved) - it is her svadharma. The rare exception of narAdham (fallen) is there.
This is for all women, whether or not they are interested in adhyAtma (spirituality) and are devotees of Hari.
That was svadharma - duty, and next comes the consequence or fruit, two different things.
The good service to husband brings param padam , because that service itself rids her of all anartha, the acid tests are done right there and then. This param padam can be VaikunTha and in that sense you are right.
Coming to SB 7.11.29, Service to the husband following in the footsteps of Lakshmi with constant thought of Hari keeping Him in the centre of all service (HaryAtmanA), will take her to VaikunTha WITH HUSBAND (patyA).
This is more specific, the first case was general.
So, for the wife to go to VaikunTha with the husband
1. she has to be a devotee of Hari following in Lakshmi's footsteps - keeping that high standard of service, always keeping Hari in the center.
2. the husband also has to go to VaikunTha
So, this is a combined sAdhanA, they cannot be seperated.
By pure VaishNav I meant an eventually-VaikunTha-bound husband. To enter VaikunTha the husband has to eventually be pure. This is seperate from the wife's svadharma of service to him irrespective of the devotion.
That the dvija husband is put through rigourous tests, demands meticulousness, is all true, I was just pointing out the wife's role, that's all.
Thanks for the excerpt from VyAsdev.
Hare KRshNa ~
|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
searching for rasa
Pranams. Thank you for emphasizing this. It underscores the importance of looking at strI-dharma not as merely a mundane act of enslaving wife to husband, but rather as an important sAdhana with its own specific, devotional significance. This also relates to a point I was making in the "Wife is the Guru and Deity of the Husband" thread, which I will hopefully get around to elucidating soon. :-)
Philosoraptor
"Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato
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