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Thread: Clarification on BG 2.47

  1. #11

    Re: Clarification on BG 2.47

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    After all this, I am not a fool to invest resources, time, skill-set, people, money to give the drug away for free.
    Sant Tukaram would do even that. These are BhagvAn's people. They are too preoccupied with welfare of others, they forget any selfish requirements. Yes, sometimes they take this very far.

    Tukaram Maharaj would give away groceries from his shop - free - to the poor. There were many very poor who would come by - who could not afford the groceries. "These people belong to Hari, how can I cause them any distress?" was his bhav.
    It made his family live a somewhat austere life (becs his was a loss-business, well-known today as "tukArAmi vyApAr"), but he always taught his wife, daughter and son - never run after money. God has given us what we need. When Chhatrapati Shiva Maharaj sent expensive royal gifts to Tukaram's family, he made them return everything.

    ----
    So, this life-saving-drug-inventor would do similarly, although not necessarily tukArAmi vyApAr. Free or subsidized medicinal drugs for those who cannot afford it.

    Someone may argue: this will make people lazy "it is ok to be poor, it works"
    Everyone gets charged something in a society-system.
    The point is, there should be prosperity, but not greed and excess. Relative concepts in the kingdom of Absolute.

    ----
    BG 2.46, 47 are spoken somewhat in context of Vedas, i.e. karma as in karma-kAnDa although applied to all dhArmic karma including Arjun's.

    Even while performing a yadnya, the yajman did that for the welfare of the whole. "Whole" could be community, kingdom, country, earth, humans only, all creatures, cows only... it depends on the sankalpa (resolve and intent).

    Ashwamedha yadnya are being done even today - for the spiritual upliftment of people. Donations cover the cost.

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~
    Last edited by smaranam; 08 September 2013 at 04:15 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  2. #12
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    Re: Clarification on BG 2.47

    It is falhin karam is not possible. So before doing something one does consider the consequences. Everyone looks forward to positive fruits of choice. In fact fruits are first identified then an effort is launched to attain it.

    I am sorry. But clarifications meeting the objections of non Hindus have not come forth.

  3. #13

    Re: Clarification on BG 2.47

    Quote Originally Posted by rcscwc View Post
    It is falhin karam is not possible. So before doing something one does consider the consequences. Everyone looks forward to positive fruits of choice. In fact fruits are first identified then an effort is launched to attain it.

    I am sorry. But clarifications meeting the objections of non Hindus have not come forth.
    praNAm

    Indeed. Nothing wrong with that (words in blue).
    WHAT TO DO WITH THE OBTAINED FRUITS, how to react, is upto the person, but they cannot really control the fruits - i.e. outcome of an effort.

    I try my best, and leave the rest to KRshNa.

    You have the adhikAr to perform action, but you have no control on the actual outcome. Leave the outcome to Parameshwar and His PrakRti. To the timeless kAla which is KRshNa (He says He is kAla in chapter 11).

    They may not demand a specific fruit. Despite their meticulous and accurate efforts, the arrow may or may not hit the target. There are many factors involved, daiva, guna, past karma, environmental factors, group consciousness, right desha-kAla-pAtra combination, so many things.

    It all boils down to getting rid of ahamkAr.

    "I" surrender to the higher power, Bhagavan. KAla chakra.
    Things are not really in "my" hands, in "my" control.

    If Arjun wins war he gets svarga, but he has to have the consciousness that svarga may or may not come by irrespective of anything he "does" and therefore he surrenders to KRshNa. (It is a different story that Arjun does not care about svarga. Even if he did, BG 2.47 would apply to him.)

    If your life-saving-drug-inventor successfully comes up with the drug and it truly saves lives so as to turn the history of medicine (a fatal decease is not fatal anymore), surely they will get fame, honor, fortune here itself, as well as svarga perhaps.

    However, if the drug is a failure despite all correct efforts, there is literally NOTHING the inventor can do to go backwards in time. The ONLY thing to do is to move on.

    This is what Shri KRshNa is saying IMHO. With such a mindset, no one and nothing can take your peace away.

    With this consciousness, one can take up a challenging task or responsibility, aim for the expected fruits, fine, but not get deterred if the expected does not happen.

    Anxiety will not be a word in their dictionary.

    _/\_

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Clarification on BG 2.47

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by rcscwc View Post
    It is falhin karam is not possible. So before doing something one does consider the consequences. Everyone looks forward to positive fruits of choice. In fact fruits are first identified then an effort is launched to attain it.

    I am sorry. But clarifications meeting the objections of non Hindus have not come forth.
    Samaranam ji has given good advise, just do your duty, that is also the message in Gita.

    Icha desires be it for karma fal even if it is producing drug that would benefit the world at large, it is still a desire and desires are never satiated, be it successful or a big disappointment which adds to ones misery.
    Being equanimity for result, since the result is not always guaranteed therefore one must embark on any karma knowing it can result in great disappointment, or in other words do your duty give your best shot but do not worry about the result, ghana karmana gati

    it is difficult to understand Karma, if i don't understand fully my self what is the point in making anyone else who comes from different background to understand?
    better to head another instruction in Gita 3.25/26
    As the ignorant work, O Arjuna, with attachment (to the fruits of work), so the wise should work without attachment, for the welfare of the society. (3.25)
    The wise should not unsettle the mind of the ignorant who is attached to the fruits of work, but the enlightened one should inspire others by performing all works efficiently without attachment. (3.26)

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  5. #15

    Re: Clarification on BG 2.47

    Quote Originally Posted by rcscwc View Post
    Why would any one develop a life saving drugs he he is not entitled to some profit therefrom?
    OK I see what is happening here. The very premise is wrong

    This is not what the shloka says.

    KarmaNye vAdhikAraste mA phaleshu kadAchana

    You may make absolutely meticulous, sAttvic efforts with a specific aim too. This is ALL that is in "your hands"
    It is OK to keep hopes too, to be optimistic, to anticipate, all is fine.
    What happens, the outcome, may not be as per the expectation, because it is wrong to think you are in full control of the outcome.

    In business language it is called the "risk factor"

    KRshNa is asking you to surrender the ahamKar basically. A surrendered business professional is the best. Please see my previous post, just before this.

    If your argument is, the "risk factor" or "things notin my control" is going to hamper motivation and impetus, I disagree, becs, as said earlier, if anxiety is not in your dictionary because ahamkAr isn't, your entire attitude and belief system itself will change drastically, so the question put forth will get this answer: N/A. Not applicable any more

    Hare KRshNa
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Clarification on BG 2.47

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    praNAm

    Indeed. Nothing wrong with that (words in blue).
    WHAT TO DO WITH THE OBTAINED FRUITS, how to react, is upto the person, but they cannot really control the fruits - i.e. outcome of an effort.

    I try my best, and leave the rest to KRshNa.

    You have the adhikAr to perform action, but you have no control on the actual outcome. Leave the outcome to Parameshwar and His PrakRti. To the timeless kAla which is KRshNa (He says He is kAla in chapter 11).

    They may not demand a specific fruit. Despite their meticulous and accurate efforts, the arrow may or may not hit the target. There are many factors involved, daiva, guna, past karma, environmental factors, group consciousness, right desha-kAla-pAtra combination, so many things.

    It all boils down to getting rid of ahamkAr.

    "I" surrender to the higher power, Bhagavan. KAla chakra.
    Things are not really in "my" hands, in "my" control.

    If Arjun wins war he gets svarga, but he has to have the consciousness that svarga may or may not come by irrespective of anything he "does" and therefore he surrenders to KRshNa. (It is a different story that Arjun does not care about svarga. Even if he did, BG 2.47 would apply to him.)

    If your life-saving-drug-inventor successfully comes up with the drug and it truly saves lives so as to turn the history of medicine (a fatal decease is not fatal anymore), surely they will get fame, honor, fortune here itself, as well as svarga perhaps.

    However, if the drug is a failure despite all correct efforts, there is literally NOTHING the inventor can do to go backwards in time. The ONLY thing to do is to move on.

    This is what Shri KRshNa is saying IMHO. With such a mindset, no one and nothing can take your peace away.

    With this consciousness, one can take up a challenging task or responsibility, aim for the expected fruits, fine, but not get deterred if the expected does not happen.

    Anxiety will not be a word in their dictionary.

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya
    Another logical problem. Leaving everything in the hands of K is fatalism and amounts to abandoning the duty to perform. Arjuna was prepared to forego kingdom and live on begging.

    [For god's sake drug case was just an example. Can you not get another examples?]

    Arjuna was to fight a war, where experiments are not allowed. First time right, every time or perish. A much more difficult regime.

    Krishna definitely was advising that even fruitless victory would be OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam
    Samaranam ji has given good advise, just do your duty, that is also the message in Gita.

    Icha desires be it for karma fal even if it is producing drug that would benefit the world at large, it is still a desire and desires are never satiated, be it successful or a big disappointment which adds to ones misery.
    Being equanimity for result, since the result is not always guaranteed therefore one must embark on any karma knowing it can result in great disappointment, or in other words do your duty give your best shot but do not worry about the result, ghana karmana gati
    IMHO, icha was never brought into this shloka even indirectly.

    Recall, in an earlier shloka, Krishna had spelled two outcomes of his fighting: Defeat and death means svarga and ever lasting glory. Victory means unchallenged enjoyment of the kingdom.

    Not fighting would bring ever lasting ignomy? Had Arjuna ultimately refused to fight, would you find people naming their sons after him?

    No sir. Whatever the decision, the outcome was not phalheen.
    it is difficult to understand Karma, if i don't understand fully my self what is the point in making anyone else who comes from different background to understand?
    In fact it is easy to grasp that karma has to be done. Food will not jump into your mouth unless you do the karma of putting it there.
    better to head another instruction in Gita 3.25/26
    As the ignorant work, O Arjuna, with attachment (to the fruits of work), so the wise should work without attachment, for the welfare of the society. (3.25)
    The wise should not unsettle the mind of the ignorant who is attached to the fruits of work, but the enlightened one should inspire others by performing all works efficiently without attachment. (3.26)

    Jai Shree Krishna
    This reference is not in context please. It runs counter to 2.47.

    PS: Every body must be knowing about King Bruce and spider: Try and try again.


    Who has not heard of Edison? Once he saw the potential of an invention, he went all out for it. It is not for nothing that there are thousands of patents after him.

  7. #17
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    Re: Clarification on BG 2.47

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    OK I see what is happening here. The very premise is wrong

    This is not what the shloka says.

    KarmaNye vAdhikAraste mA phaleshu kadAchana

    You may make absolutely meticulous, sAttvic efforts with a specific aim too. This is ALL that is in "your hands"
    It is OK to keep hopes too, to be optimistic, to anticipate, all is fine.
    What happens, the outcome, may not be as per the expectation, because it is wrong to think you are in full control of the outcome.

    In business language it is called the "risk factor"

    KRshNa is asking you to surrender the ahamKar basically. A surrendered business professional is the best. Please see my previous post, just before this.

    If your argument is, the "risk factor" or "things notin my control" is going to hamper motivation and impetus, I disagree, becs, as said earlier, if anxiety is not in your dictionary because ahamkAr isn't, your entire attitude and belief system itself will change drastically, so the question put forth will get this answer: N/A. Not applicable any more

    Hare KRshNa
    Risk factor was already explained by Krishna.

    2.33 Now, if you will not wage such a righteous war, then, abandoning your duty and losing your reputation, you will incur sin.
    2.34 Nay, people will pour undying infamy on you, and infamy brought on a man enjoying popular esteem is worse than death.
    2.35 And the great Maharathis, who held you in great esteem, will now make light of you, thinking that you have desisted from battle out of fear.
    2.36 And your enemies, disparaging your might, will speak many unbecoming words; what can be more distressing than this?
    2.37 Either slain in battle you will attain heaven, or gaining victory you will enjoy sovereignty of the earth; therefore, arise, Arjuna, determined to fight.

  8. #18

    Re: Clarification on BG 2.47

    praNAm ji

    Quote Originally Posted by rcscwc View Post
    Another logical problem. Leaving everything in the hands of K is fatalism and amounts to abandoning the duty to perform.
    ( I wish you would type out Nandakishore's transcendental name and not call Him K )

    I did not say "leave everything" it is "leave the outcome in His hands" not the efforts.
    This is just a perfect strategic scenario that KRshNa is talking about. There is ample scope for strategy.

    The only reasons a person would take up some action are
    1. because it is their duty (so not allowed to leave world and beg)
    abandonment of duty is a NO-NO.

    2. because they see this as an act of compassion within the range of their calling

    Arjuna was prepared to forego kingdom and live on begging.
    Abandonment of duty or running away from the calling are both out of place in this shloka.

    There is an entire spectrum of risk cases going from low to high. The high-risk zone is for the liberated as long as it is their duty or calling.
    The low-risk zone is for the ones who are attached to fruits. These latter ones will not go for the high-risk zone. We should not push them, they are not ready yet.

    [For god's sake drug case was just an example. Can you not get another examples?]
    Nope. This has become the favorite case-study.

    Arjuna was to fight a war, where experiments are not allowed. First time right, every time or perish. A much more difficult regime.
    This is why KRshNa wanted to liberate him first, before the war. Arjun's case lies in the high-risk zone of the spectrum.

    Who has not heard of Edison? Once he saw the potential of an invention, he went all out for it. It is not for nothing that there are thousands of patents after him.
    This is precisely what is embedded in 2.47 also.
    See the potential - as long as it is a deed of goodwill
    Go all out for it.

    Persistence - comes afterwards.
    If persistence is owing to Asakti - attachment, this is rAjas, and is also needed for the world to move.
    If persistence is on the sAttvic plane, chances are, it is for the benefit of the Whole, not the individual.

    KRshNa is not saying the whole world should be liberated overnight. Only a handful are near there. Others - just let them be. However, even the not-liberated ones can get help from Gita. Keep doing what you do with Asakti, but then, there are ways to slowly taper off that Asakti so these people can gradually gain manah: shAnti - peace of mind in situations.

    It is not necessary that everyone should be liberated.
    It is also not necessary that everyone should be in anxiety and having panic-attacks.

    Gita is not for everyone, but it can certainly help the in-betweens.

    _/\_

    Hare KrshNa
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  9. #19
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    Re: Clarification on BG 2.47

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    praNAm ji
    This is precisely what is embedded in 2.47 also.
    See the potential - as long as it is a deed of goodwill
    Go all out for it.

    Persistence - comes afterwards.
    If persistence is owing to Asakti - attachment, this is rAjas, and is also needed for the world to move.
    If persistence is on the sAttvic plane, chances are, it is for the benefit of the Whole, not the individual.

    KRshNa is not saying the whole world should be liberated overnight. Only a handful are near there. Others - just let them be. However, even the not-liberated ones can get help from Gita. Keep doing what you do with Asakti, but then, there are ways to slowly taper off that Asakti so these people can gradually gain manah: shAnti - peace of mind in situations.

    It is not necessary that everyone should be liberated.
    It is also not necessary that everyone should be in anxiety and having panic-attacks.

    Gita is not for everyone, but it can certainly help the in-betweens.

    Hare KrshNa
    Let us not get into the mine field of liberation, not yet, 2.47 has nothing to do with it.

    2.47 speaks NOTHING about persistence too.

    "It is not necessary that everyone should be liberated.

    Gita is not for everyone, but it can certainly help the in-betweens."

    Are you familiar with christian arguments. I am.

    Bible also says only the chosen ones will be saved.

    Xians claim Gita is not universal, as you have claimed it is not for everyone. They claim Jesus can help everyone, and bible is for all.

    Gentleman, it is easy to discuss among friends, but on a christian it is very hard. One slip and you will be torn apart. Not only xians, but there are skeptics and atheists too.

    But fortunately you are wrong here. Krishna wants to liberate all, if not now then as Kalki. And Gita is universal.

  10. #20

    Re: Clarification on BG 2.47

    What I meant was, everyone is not at the same point at once. Some are closer to the truth others are far away. So adhikAr varies, but eventually everyone will get there, of course.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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