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Thread: God in Hindu Dharma

  1. #11
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Not to mention how he harasses the children of Gokula. In a commentary to Periyazhwar Thirumozhi, Embar, the cousin of swami rAmAnuja (and coincidentally named SrI Govinda Perumal) indicates that Krishna, even as a child used to frighten the young kids at Gokula by scaring them. How? When the kids were looking, he would suddenly manifest his two other arms holding sudarshana and panchajanya, raising them up slowly from his back, with a wicked grin on his face.

    The kids would become frightened and start crying. The mothers would look, but all she would see is kutti kannan just sitting there innocently, with 2 hands and an unassuming expression on his face!

    There is also another anecdote involving Embar and Krishna. The araiyar sevai (actors who enact the divya prabandham) was going on. The araiyar (name of the actor) was enacting the following pasuram from Kulasekhara Azhwar's Perumal Thirumozhi:

    "varudhiyEal, en sinam thErvan nAnEA"

    Here, Kulasekhara Perumal has transformed into a Gopika who is anxiously waiting for Krishna. She tells Krishna, "I am waiting for you for so long. Once you come, I will express my wrath."

    In trying to express this emotion, the araiyar made a gesture as though he was kicking, to indicate that when Krishna comes, the Gopika would kick him out of fury.

    Embar instead, made a gesture to the araiyar to change his pose. Accordingly, the araiyar corrected his earlier gesture and now made a sign of indifference, as though the Gopika was turning away from Krishna.

    What is the intent behind this? Embar felt that if the Gopika kicked Krishna, he would actually be very happy about it. BhagavAn loves to be close to his devotees, who consider him alone to be the refuge and none other. So the act of kicking would make the feet touch Krishna's body and he would be happy about it (remember the incident where Bhrigu kicked him and Vishnu messaged his feet).

    But the notion of Kulasekhara azhwar is to act in a way to express anger. So that means the Gopika will try to look away and not talk to him, to be indifferent and stay away from Krishna. This will make Krishna anxious. When his devotees are far away from him, even his ornaments and weapons wilt and lose their shine. When they are near to him, his radiance is magnified, as expressed by the following sloka:

    na tE rUpam na chAkArO nAyudhAni nachAspadam
    tathApi puruShAkArO bhaktAnAm tvam prakAshasE

    Your great auspicious characteristics, your effulgent body, your auspicious personality, your divine weapons, your supreme abode of srI vaikunta and all that is within it, are not indeed intended for you. You, along with all these, are meant for your devotees. Though basically independent, you become the property of your devotees. Your svarUpa, rUpa, guna-vibhUti exist only for your devotees and not for you. Due to this, you shine brightly with absolute greatness (brahmatva - he who is great and he who gives greatness to others) as stated in the Purusha Sukta.


    Why does BhagavAn, who is avApta samasta kAman, ie, self-satisfied, specifically need an abode such srI vaikuntam and a form such as shanka-chakra-gadAdhari? SrI rAmAnuja beautifully states that he needs it not for his own purposes. They all belong to his devotees and he has manifested them for that purpose only.
    [CENTER][COLOR="Black"][COLOR="Red"][COLOR="DarkRed"]No holiness rules over my freedom
    No commands from above I obey
    I seek the ruin, I shake the worlds
    Behold! I am blackest ov the black

    Ov khaos I am, the disobediant one
    Depraved son who hath dwelt in nothingness
    Upon the ninth I fell, from grace up above
    To taste this life ov sin, to give birth to the "I"[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]

    [B]~ "Blackest Ov the Black" - Behemoth.[/B]

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P-JdwtK1DY[/url] [/CENTER]

  2. #12

    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by Sri Vaishnava View Post
    Not to mention how he harasses the children of Gokula. In a commentary to Periyazhwar Thirumozhi, Embar, the cousin of swami rAmAnuja (and coincidentally named SrI Govinda Perumal) indicates that Krishna, even as a child used to frighten the young kids at Gokula by scaring them. How? When the kids were looking, he would suddenly manifest his two other arms holding sudarshana and panchajanya, raising them up slowly from his back, with a wicked grin on his face.

    The kids would become frightened and start crying. The mothers would look, but all she would see is kutti kannan just sitting there innocently, with 2 hands and an unassuming expression on his face!
    No, this is not my KAnhu. He is not like this. Even if the person who said this is an azhwar I do not believe them.

    KRshNa made it so that the mothers would suspect Balaram, Nanda Maharaj or one of the Gopa sakhAs or even the Gopis - Yashoda's assistants; in place of Him. However, He would not scare kids on His own, but protect them from all rAkshasa (demons).

    -------
    This is an interesting topic - Chaturbhuj manifestation in Vraja.

    1. Vallabhacharya writes (somewhere), that when KRshNa was just two, He would be climbing the Dahi-hanDi pyramid of cowherd boys and once He manifested four arms to hold His clothes with two and reach the dahi-hanDi with the other two.

    2. Vallabhacharya also writes about KRshNa manifesting 4 arms in front of the Gopis. (This is different from the reference of His manifesting as NArAyaNa and Gopis just ask Him "praNAm NArAyaNa, Have You seen our KRshNa?" but when Radha came by He could not stay four-armed, kept slipping back into two-armed ShyAm).

    3. Acc. to one acharya, KRshNa as Dwarakadheesh manifested four arms when RukmiNi almost fainted listening to His joking talk.

    4. Otherwise we know that He manifests 4 arms outside of Vraja (in MAthura and Dvaraka quite often) e.g. while fighting Jarasandha.

    The following is from "Jaiva Dharma" - a text written by one of the Goswami followers of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, as a guideline for sAdhaks
    In Gokula sambhrama-prita Krsna has two arms. In the other parts of this rasa He sometimes has two arms and sometimes four arms. In Gokula Krsna is a cowherd boy, has two arms, holds the flute and is decorated with a peacock-feather and other ornaments. When He is manifested outside of Gokula, Krsna is decorated with jewels and His feature is that of aisvarya (power and opulence).
    _/\_
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  3. #13
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Namaste


    No, this is not my KAnhu. He is not like this. Even if the person who said this is an azhwar I do not believe them.

    KRshNa made it so that the mothers would suspect Balaram, Nanda Maharaj or one of the Gopa sakhAs or even the Gopis - Yashoda's assistants; in place of Him. However, He would not scare kids on His own, but protect them from all rAkshasa (demons).
    In which case, you miss the entire point of what is "bhagavad anubhava". The Vishnu SahasranAma describes him as "Bhayakrt", ie, he who induces fear. And the commentators say that this is not only in the case of the asuras, but he can induce fear in his devotees as well. And then, the nAma "bhayanAshana" occurs, ie, he destroys that very fear. This is what the Purusha Suktam means by "aho rAtrE", "day and night". He is one in whom contradictory things are reconciled, a guna known as agatithagatana sAmarthyam.

    Fear is also a way to enjoy bhagavAn. Thirumangai Azhwar assumes the role of the Rakshasis who tortured Sita in Lanka and enjoys Bhagavan from their perspective. He says, "Oh save me from this unknown God who is angry with me because I harassed this Devi (Sita) of unknown powers!"

    The idea is that Bhagavan is only filled with kalyAna gunAs and even if he scares someone, that very fear will give ananda to them. So, azhwar wanted to experience that. And in this case, scaring kids and bullying is part of a kid's mischief. When bhagavAn became a kid, he acted like a kid. And mischief was his speciality indeed.

    Even if Bhagavan's forms induce ananda, it is his desire that governs the indriyas of the jivas. If he resolved to make the kids cry, he did. And even that is a form of ananda.

    The anubhavam of the azhwars and especially the periyazhwar thirumozhi, is a million times greater than what is in the srimad bhagavatam itself. No wonder Suka maharishi himself foresees the appearance of the azhwars in the sloka "kalou kalou kvachit kvachit..." and mentions the rivers tAmraparni, kritamAla and payasvini, etc.

    And I am not entering the debate of 4 arms vs 2 arms. It is very childish to ascribe differences in gunas based on forms and that is not the theme of the thread.

    A sample of periyazhwar's anubhavams:

    Krishna was unable to control his urination when he was a kid. So, whenever he came running to Yashoda to put his arms around her, he would keep "dripping" as he ran. Periyazhwar describes this as follows - a dark gem (bhagavan) with white pearls falling from his genitals!

    But suit yourself.
    [CENTER][COLOR="Black"][COLOR="Red"][COLOR="DarkRed"]No holiness rules over my freedom
    No commands from above I obey
    I seek the ruin, I shake the worlds
    Behold! I am blackest ov the black

    Ov khaos I am, the disobediant one
    Depraved son who hath dwelt in nothingness
    Upon the ninth I fell, from grace up above
    To taste this life ov sin, to give birth to the "I"[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]

    [B]~ "Blackest Ov the Black" - Behemoth.[/B]

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P-JdwtK1DY[/url] [/CENTER]

  4. #14

    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    I see no reason why Sri Krishna would not have some fun scaring His childhood comrades. I've also heard it said that when Krishna was unable to get to the butter, due to the gopikas taking special precautions (hanging them up high, etc), He would retaliate by passing urine on the floor or pinching the sleeping babies in the household and making them cry. :-)

    On another note, here is a story I have heard about Sri Krishna from U.Ve. Velukkudi Krishnan Swami. I am not sure of the source - I think it is from the writings of the Alvars. It seems that Sri Krishna likes to tell lies. But not sophisticated lies that are hard to detect. Rather, He likes telling lies that will be found out within minutes.

    Once, when He was wandering into the house of a gopi looking for butter to plunder, He was caught red-handed looking into a pot of butter by an elder gopika. Arresting Him at the door, she demanded, "who are you?" What could Krishna say? If He says, "I am the son of Nanda and Yashoda," then the gopi would take her complaints about Him to them. So instead, He replied, "I am Balaraama's younger brother." Because Balaraama is known to be very honest, and so by identifying Himself as Balaraama's brother, He can try to cast off the suspicion for His naughty motivations. "Why are you here? This is not your home." says the gopika. Well, Krishna had a response for that, too. "The houses all look alike to me. I am just a young boy. I thought this was my mother's house." Then the gopi asks, "But why were you coming inside?" Krishna: "I lost my calf, I thought he may have come inside this house." Gopi: "Then why were you looking inside that pot of butter?" Krishna: "I thought my calf might be hiding inside this pot." Gopi: "Did you find your calf in the pot?" Krishna: "I am glad you asked that. I was just coming to tell you I looked for him in the pot and he is not there. Now that I have told you, I will go now."
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  5. #15
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    I have a doubt. Is Sri Srinivasa perumal (Sri Venkatesa) an avatara or amsa of Sri Krishna? Because both carry the name of 'Govinda' and it is said, in Pandaripur, in Vittala's shrine, the only other sanctum that is found is of Sri Venkatesa... Does anyone know?
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  6. #16

    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    As far as I am aware, both shrInivAsa and kRiShNa are amsha-s/avatAra-s of nArAyaNa.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  7. #17
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    I have a doubt. Is Sri Srinivasa perumal (Sri Venkatesa) an avatara or amsa of Sri Krishna? Because both carry the name of 'Govinda' and it is said, in Pandaripur, in Vittala's shrine, the only other sanctum that is found is of Sri Venkatesa... Does anyone know?
    SrI venkatEswara is an avatAram of sriman nArAyaNa, who is known as srI Krishna, govinda, mukunda, rAghava, narasimha, etc.

    Govinda has many meanings - Go refers to Bhumi, Vinda refers to Protector or giver of bliss (to bhumi). Go refers to jyOthi, Vinda refers to the possessor (of jyOti - jyOtisam jyOtir brahma vidya of the Upanishads). Go refers to the Vedas, Vinda refers to Protector. Go refers to the cows, Vinda refers to protector. Go refers to devotees, Vinda refers to Protector...and so on.

    SrI venkatEswara is a form of sriman nArAyaNa known as ShankaranArAyaNa. This is not a shiva=vishnu philosophy, but a fully vaishnava one. SrI rAmAnuja quotes the purAnAs to show that this is a form of Vishnu in as shankaranArAyaNa and not a combination of two deities.

    BhagavAn vishnu manifested with Lakshmi on his chest, Brahma in his navel and Shiva's form on the right side for a devotee to show that he is the adi mUrthy. It is his own suddha sattva form that assumed the rUpam of the devas. Accordingly, SrinivAsA at Tirumala has nAgAbharanaMs and is jaTadhAri. In fact, Kapardin is a name of mahA-vishnu.

    The purAnAs further describe that this form had the devas and brahmanas were seen on his face, kshatriyas on his hands, vaishyas on his thighs and the shudras on His legs. In addition ,in his body, bhagavAn nArAyaNa revealed the Ekadasa Rudras.

    Peyazhwar states this beautifully as follows,

    thaazsadaiyum neeNmudiyum oNmazuvum sakkaramum,
    soozaravum ponnaaNum thOnRumaal, soozum
    thiraNdaruvi paayum thirumalaimEl enthaikku,
    iraNduruvu monRaay isainthu.

    Thaazh sadaiyum- the matted locks of hair
    neeL mudiyum – The golden crown indicating his supremacy
    oN mazhuvum- the trishUlam in his left hand
    chakaramum- the chakra in his right hand.
    soozh aravum- the snakes on his body.
    pon naaNum- the golden waist band (araijnAN) declaring His beauty.

    iraNduruvy monrAy isainthu - I have seen him as the bearer of two forms, ie, Siva as his body (yasya atmA sarIram, anganyAnya devatA - Br.Up) and his own form in one form.

    All this is seen at Tirumala. In Thiruvahindrapuram, a similar form can be seen for the same purposes. There, bhagavAn has Brahma's lotus in his hand and a third eye on his forehead, in addition to bearing Lakshmi on his chest. Thirumangai azhwar calls him "mUvarAgiya Oruvan", "The One who is the Three".
    [CENTER][COLOR="Black"][COLOR="Red"][COLOR="DarkRed"]No holiness rules over my freedom
    No commands from above I obey
    I seek the ruin, I shake the worlds
    Behold! I am blackest ov the black

    Ov khaos I am, the disobediant one
    Depraved son who hath dwelt in nothingness
    Upon the ninth I fell, from grace up above
    To taste this life ov sin, to give birth to the "I"[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]

    [B]~ "Blackest Ov the Black" - Behemoth.[/B]

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P-JdwtK1DY[/url] [/CENTER]

  8. #18
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    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Thank you for the wonderful clarification, Sri Vaishnava ji.

    Smaranam ji, sorry for the little diversion, I hope bhagavath anubhavam with Sri Krishna will be back in track now...

    Posting a favorite picture of Sri Krishna's rasa lila to indicate the same:

    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  9. #19

    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Quote Originally Posted by Sri Vaishnava View Post
    And I am not entering the debate of 4 arms vs 2 arms. It is very childish to ascribe differences in gunas based on forms and that is not the theme of the thread.
    ??????
    Where is this debate on two Vs four arms going on? Can you please let me know? I do not see any on this thread of madhurAdhipati --- akhilam madhuram
    On the contrary I mentioned several leelas where KAnhu manifests four arms - and for the cutest purposes - especially the toddler KAnhu's dahi-hanDi leela. He is afraid His clothes are too loose so He holds them

    The Jaiva Dharma quote is only a general statement (for others, not you) that KRshNa seldom manifests four arms in Vraj, but very often outside Vraj.

    All I am saying is my Bhagvad anubhav differs. You (Embaar) can't accuse my KAnhu of scaring innocent kids.

    Yashoda refused to believe the complaints of the Gopis. She did not believe Akrura. That is their inter-leela. MaiyA YashodA did not miss out on Bhagvad anubhav. However, I am serious when I say "You can't accuse my KAnhu of this"

    Pinching sleeping babies (when almost infant Himself) gives more pain to the mothers than the babies, and that is precisely what He wants to achieve.

    He does give Gopis of all ages a hard time, in order to take all their attachments - Asakti, vAsanA (desires) and bhayam (fear) away. To top it all off, leaving Vraja was enough to liberate all VrajavAsis of anartha.

    ---------

    Just want to let all on this thread know that your description of the natkhat's transcendental leelas and feigning innocence is very blissful to read.

    Also reminded of
    *His tying the mother-in-law & daughter-in-law's braids while asleep,
    *tying a Gopi to a pillar by a rope in the process of teaching her how to punish Him
    *the Gopis would watch KRshNa and Balaram coming back from the forest. One Gopi (you know who) was not allowed to go to the terrace or window, so she was watching thru' the crack in the door. The bhakta-vatsal antaryAmi made it so His calf went and stood by that very door. Then He immediately went there to "get the calf back" What a way to give darshan!

    satyam jnAnam anantam vishNum anAkAsham paramAkAsham...
    Last edited by smaranam; 14 September 2013 at 02:25 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  10. #20

    Re: God in Hindu Dharma

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Smaranam ji, sorry for the little diversion, I hope bhagavath anubhavam with Sri Krishna will be back in track now...
    How is discussing the beautiful BAlAji (Venkateshwar) a diversion to God in Hindu Dharma, Virajaji? Thanks for bringing Him here. And for the sweetest and my favourite Rasa-lila poster of the eight-year-olds - I saw it after ages.

    Hari kathA Hari KathA and more Hari kathA for the eyes ears mind buddhi heart till you reach AtmA.

    _/\_

    ----
    P.S. This is for you: (Venkatesh stotra - your version may differ)

    venkaTesho vAsudevo pradyumno amita vikrama
    sankarshaNa aniruddhascha sheshAdri-patireva cha
    janArdanah padmanAbhah venkatAchala vAsina
    sRshti-kartA jagannAthah madhavo bhakta-vatsalah
    govindo gopatir KRshNah keshavah garuDadhwaja
    varAha vAmanaschaiva nArAyaNa adhokshaja
    shridharah punDarIkAksho sarva-deva-stuto harih
    shrinusinho mahAsinho sUtrakArah purAtanah
    ramA-natho mahI-bhartA madhura purushottamah
    chola-putra piyah shAnto bramhAdInAm vara-pradah
    shrinidhih sarva-bhUtAnAm bhayakRt bhayanAshana
    shri rAmo rAma-bhadrascha bhava bandhaka-mochaka
    bhutAvAsah girAvAsah shrinivAsah shriyah-patih
    achyutAnanta govindo vishNurvenkaTanAyaka
    sarva-devaika-sharaNam, sarva-devaika-daivatam
    samasta-deva kavacham, sarva-deva-shikhAmaNi

    phala shruti:
    itidam kIrtanIyasya vishNur-amita-tejasa
    trikAleyam paThednityam pApam tasya na vidyate

    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
    Last edited by smaranam; 27 September 2013 at 05:58 AM. Reason: added missing shloka; kavacham; shikhAmaNi
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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