Bhagavan Shiva in Srimad Bhagavatam

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

I think I understand the spirit of ISA. From my perspective that what ISA has introduced here is an awareness of what I would call “Master” – because this is noble, that is why I hate the inane “who is superior?” fixations some have in public discourse among fellow Hindus that end up in jalpa and divide us all. Already, there are crows gathering, but perhaps the point is missed, because yet we see the true spirit in some of these examples provided of an equanimity with each other (as exampled in emphasis on cause and effect in the discussion of the Devatas and Devi) and even with guests as a noble Hindu characteristic. We can find additional characteristics (I do not see it is his list) of Lord Shiva in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (4.2.2) in which it states that Lord Shiva is the spiritual master of the entire world.

Caracara-guru. In the example of Guru you may have, we can find many such Gurus, Masters, savants, Rishis (and I include Sadhus, etc.) who are in human body. I am suspect of those who harp on words such as “superior”, the litany of Gurus and Acharyas who, though human in body are glorious in soul, have a “superiority” of their own yet many have a mortal body. So what is “superior” is how you use the term.

So when you have such a Master, all is possible for you. I think that if a scripture is to be public, it is not surprising that it reflects the same equanimity among all Hindus even though we find examples of one Devata or Devi having leelas with another we cannot necessarily understand Their wonders and purposes, and you will find Surya praised, and Vishnu, and Shiva, and indeed They should be! – and while I am not of the opinion 100% with H(luv)K (I want to remain in a dual state at this time with the Divine), I do lean towards a non-sectarian vision within the family of Hinduism for the Brahman. They are our Masters, too!

This is my translation (sorry):

Siva the Lord is a World Guru of the Animate and Inanimate realms, and free from enmity, peacefully satisfied in Himself. He is Mahatma among the Daivas, how you would be disparaging of Him?

This is Prabhupad translation:

kas taḿ carācara-guruḿ
nirvairaḿśānta-vigraham
ātmārāmaḿ kathaḿdveṣṭi
jagato daivataḿmahat


Lord Śiva, the spiritual master of the entire world, is free from enmity, is a peaceful personality, and is always satisfied in himself. He is the greatest among the demigods. How is it possible that Dakṣa could be inimical towards such an auspicious personality?

Thank you ISA for sharing these quotes!

Om Namah Sivaya

[Omkara]

Of course, I'm sure Amrut realizes that he is ignoring quite a bit of evidence from the bhAgavatam in which Lord Shiva is depicted as a non-supreme deity.

Being a Smarta, Amrut would no doubt explain this through Nahi Ninda Nyaya, and say that where Lord Vishnu is portrayed as superior to Lord Shiva, it is for the purpose of instilling devotion in those who have Lord Vishnu as their ishta-devata.

[philosoraptor]

Being a Smarta, Amrut would no doubt explain this through Nahi Ninda Nyaya, and say that where Lord Vishnu is portrayed as superior to Lord Shiva, it is for the purpose of instilling devotion in those who have Lord Vishnu as their ishta-devata.

Sure, and I could similarly argue that when God is portrayed as being superior to the jIva, it is for the purpose of making the jIva meditate very sincerely so he can realize his sameness with God.

We can use this logic to rationalize almost any level of disagreement with shAstra. The format being, "It doesn't mean what it says. It says what it says because it actually means what I want it to mean."

[Amrut]

Vannakkam: I can't help but wonder why discussion of a chief Vaishnava scripture was placed in the Saiva section of this forum. Does anyone else see irony?

Aum Namasivaya

Vannakkam,

Is Bhagavatam a proprietory of Vaishnava-s?

As i have said, there is no hidden intention against Vaishnava-s or anyone. Just collected verses which praise Shva. No thing more

If we had a different section for shaiva-smarta, I would have posted it here.

OM Namah Shivaya

[Amrut]

Namaste,

Being a Smarta, Amrut would no doubt explain this through Nahi Ninda Nyaya, and say that where Lord Vishnu is portrayed as superior to Lord Shiva, it is for the purpose of instilling devotion in those who have Lord Vishnu as their ishta-devata.

+1

This is what I was going to type

nAhI NindA NyAya
Cultivating Devotion

- same thing Paramacharya has said.

How can I cultivate devotion in Shiva if I post sloka-s that say Vishnu is supreme. In another thread, I have already given my way of thinking that if Shiva or Vishnu is praising one another or is defeated, it does not mean they are superior or inferior. They want to teach us something that is useful in applying in our daily life.

Welcome !!! Phil bhai most Welcome

Thank God, I do not need to discard anything from Shastra-s.

Logic, analysis can go on and on. What matters is spiritual progress

I thought you are not in a mood to

Relax

Omkara - Your prediction about future of this thread is correct

OM Namah Shivaya

[Amrut]

Thank you Necromancer and SF

If you are uncomfortable, then no need to read SB.

Also There is no need to think of Non-duality. Let I and Shiva be different and let this world be real.

As one surrenders, love for God (attraction, surrender and faith) increases. These philosophies hardly matter. After we totally surrender to Lord Shiva, he will take care of us, and give us proper direction. Shiva will correct us if we are on wrong path. Shiva will also correct us if we wrongly perceive shastra-s. what matters is strong devotion and faith.

What is needed is total surrender unconditional surrender. Samsara will fade away when mind will accept Shiva as supreme and is merged in his glory, in him.

Sham Mangalam karoti iti Shiva

OM Namah Shivaya

[Necromancer]

Namaste.

Well, now you have all just lost me again - which is really easy to do, because my approach is far too simplistic and practical.

Logic, analysis can go on and on. What matters is spiritual progress...

Pretty much.

My head explodes until my heart explodes.

So, because I haven't fully studied Srimad Bhagavatam and because this thread is turning into another Shiva vs Vishnu debate that I couldn't care less about anyway, I bid you all a fond adieu.

Aum Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya
Aum Namah Shivaya

[Necromancer]

Thank you Necromancer and SF

If you are uncomfortable, then no need to read SB.

Also There is no need to think of Non-duality. Let I and Shiva be different and let this world be real.

As one surrenders, love for God (attraction, surrender and faith) increases. These philosophies hardly matter. After we totally surrender to Lord Shiva, he will take care of us, and give us proper direction. Shiva will correct us if we are on wrong path. Shiva will also correct us if we wrongly perceive shastra-s. what matters is strong devotion and faith.

What is needed is total surrender unconditional surrender. Samsara will fade away when mind will accept Shiva as supreme and is merged in his glory, in him.

Sham Mangalam karoti iti Shiva

OM Namah Shivaya

Namaste.

*a tear is being shed at the bolded part!

That is so true!!!

Most of what I have learned didn't come from reading books or studying scriptures....it came from Lord Shiva directly (saying that with the utmost degree of humility). He is my Aadiguru. He has shown me His path.

Also There is no need to think of Non-duality. Let I and Shiva be different and let this world be real.

I've spent many years thinking/doing that until that situation finally became too contradictory and hypocritical. I felt Adi Shankaracharya would be displeased...along with HDF members, Yajvan, Silence Speaks, Mana and smaranam encouraging me with love and gently pushing me on to take that final step.

The story of my transformation is in this thread - please read it:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=11906

I knew the time had come for me to stop worshiping Lord Shiva for a while and start worshiping Kali Ma again - according to all the Tantras...the Spanda Karikas, this was the next logical step to take.

So, I surrendered and gave my heart to Sri Ardharnarishwar - Jai ShivaShakti!!!!!

Being an Advaitin, Shiva + me + world just became too difficult to reconcile. Even loving Lord Shiva put my mind in direct conflict with my heart. Now, that love comes naturally, automatically. I can experience Shiva from both objective and subjective perspective. I thank my dear Mother. I also thank Adi Shankaracharya for throwing the Saundarya Lahari at me, saying "well, it worked for me...."

It's not that I don't feel comfortable studying Bhagavatam, it's just that I have gone way too far beyond that now, if you can understand.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[Amrut]

Namaste.

*a tear is being shed at the bolded part!

That is so true!!!

Most of what I have learned didn't come from reading books or studying scriptures....it came from Lord Shiva directly (saying that with the utmost degree of humility). He is my Aadiguru. He has shown me His path.



I've spent many years thinking/doing that until that situation finally became too contradictory and hypocritical. I felt Adi Shankaracharya would be displeased...along with HDF members, Yajvan, Silence Speaks, Mana and smaranam encouraging me with love and gently pushing me on to take that final step.

The story of my transformation is in this thread - please read it:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=11906

I knew the time had come for me to stop worshiping Lord Shiva for a while and start worshiping Kali Ma again - according to all the Tantras...the Spanda Karikas, this was the next logical step to take.

So, I surrendered and gave my heart to Sri Ardharnarishwar - Jai ShivaShakti!!!!!

Being an Advaitin, Shiva + me + world just became too difficult to reconcile. Even loving Lord Shiva put my mind in direct conflict with my heart. Now, that love comes naturally, automatically. I can experience Shiva from both objective and subjective perspective. I thank my dear Mother. I also thank Adi Shankaracharya for throwing the Saundarya Lahari at me, saying "well, it worked for me...."

It's not that I don't feel comfortable studying Bhagavatam, it's just that I have gone way too far beyond that now, if you can understand.

Aum Namah Shivaya

OM Namah Shivaya,

Sun is outside, but the knowledge that - this is sun is inside us. Without this knowledge, we do not understand what sun is.

In the same way, in idol worship (not arch puja ), God is outside, the who gives inspiration to worship him? It is the God who is inside us - Shiva

In the same way, we understand scriptures according to our intellect. Understanding, or anything that touches our heart is directly given by God, hence it touches heart. Only thing said from heart can touch our heart too. God resides in our heart.

We read many things, but only a few words or statements touch our heart, which transform ourselves. All these readings is to increase faith in God, uproot negative emotions, have faith in him and worship him, stay at his lotus feet. If we fail, then the purpose of reading shastra-s is defeated.

Dvaita, Advaita, forget it. If we surrender to Shiva, he will take care of us and give what is best for us. Lord will show us truth. We should have such a faith says Sri Ramakrishna. Infact Shiva is ready to take care of us. It is only we who want to take care of ourselves. All you need to do is allow him to take care of yourself.


If you have noticed, Adi Shankara BhagavadpAda, means 'Shankara at the feet of Lord' or 'Shankara who has attained lotus feet of Lord'. pada = feet. Shankara is his name and to separate him from later Shankaracharyas who hold his name, he is called Adi Shankara.

People say that Adi Shankara revived all shastra-s, which includes all purANa-s (I assume). In this case, he would not revive which is not authentic, specially considering his short life span. I am also not aware of any story in any purANa-s be it tamasic, that finally conclude, Adharma wins over dharma. Guru Gita, is a part of Skanda PurANa

I will read your personal life story in free time. Thanks for sharing.

OM Namah Shivaya

[Necromancer]

OM Namah Shivaya,

Sun is outside, but the knowledge that - this is sun is inside us. Without this knowledge, we do not understand what sun is.

In the same way, in idol worship (not arch puja ), God is outside, the who gives inspiration to worship him? It is the God who is inside us - Shiva

In the same way, we understand scriptures according to our intellect. Understanding, or anything that touches our heart is directly given by God, hence it touches heart. Only thing said from heart can touch our heart too. God resides in our heart.

We read many things, but only a few words or statements touch our heart, which transform ourselves. All these readings is to increase faith in God, uproot negative emotions, have faith in him and worship him, stay at his lotus feet. If we fail, then the purpose of reading shastra-s is defeated.

Dvaita, Advaita, forget it. If we surrender to Shiva, he will take care of us and give what is best for us. Lord will show us truth. We should have such a faith says Sri Ramakrishna. Infact Shiva is ready to take care of us. It is only we who want to take care of ourselves. All you need to do is allow him to take care of yourself.


If you have noticed, Adi Shankara BhagavadpAda, means 'Shankara at the feet of Lord' or 'Shankara who has attained lotus feet of Lord'. pada = feet. Shankara is his name and to separate him from later Shankaracharyas who hold his name, he is called Adi Shankara.

People say that Adi Shankara revived all shastra-s, which includes all purANa-s (I assume). In this case, he would not revive which is not authentic, specially considering his short life span. I am also not aware of any story in any purANa-s be it tamasic, that finally conclude, Adharma wins over dharma. Guru Gita, is a part of Skanda PurANa

I will read your personal life story in free time. Thanks for sharing.

OM Namah Shivaya

Namaste ISA and thank you.

That thread isn't really a 'personal life story' (although it does include it).

It's more like an inner meditation journey, starting at one point and arriving at a destination.

It's a treatise on Patanjali's Yoga Aphorisms with a bit of Vijnana Bhairava Tantra thrown in there. It is a very 'enlightening' thread.

Explained within is the reason why I find it so difficult to be a dualist. If you read it, you'll understand my full position now.

I have already given my heart and soul to Lord Shiva....but that was not enough.

Devi got pretty jealous there and just tore my heart straight back out of Him.

“Her body is dance preparing for the creation of differentiation,
his is the dance of destruction that destroys everything.
I bow to Śivā, mother of the universe.
I bow to Śiva, father of the universe.
Her ear ornaments are radiant precious stones giving light,
his adornments are hissing snakes.
He is embracing her, and she is embracing him.
I bow to Śivā and I bow to Śiva.

- Ardhanarinatesvara Stotra

Now, everything is as it should be.

Aum Namah Shivaya