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Thread: New Campaign Against Domestic Violence towards Women Using images of Devi

  1. #11

    Re: New Campaign Against Domestic Violence towards Women Using images of Devi

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,
    Namaste,

    I bow to the collective wisdom of the forum members and change my position to no use of Devi's image in this regard. But help me with the following,

    If just one woman can escape only one round of being slapped around because of 'shockomercials', what should I tell her as to why I can't help her after having voted to block the use of image of Devi for this purpose?

    Pranam.
    I think this is a dangerous argument and it is too often applied to condone things that are basically wrong.

    My basic problem with shock methods are:
    • First: It is fundamentally wrong to think that negative means will create positive effects, they never do. Even if they seem to do in the short term the long term effects are opposite. I can see that for instance with ever hardening police action in my country against aggression of youth. At first people feel intimidated but soon the added aggression is answered with even more aggression.
    • Practically: Over time shocks actually make people more numb. At first people get shocked, than they get used to it. We have seen this with world press photo's trying to outdo each other in gruesomeness. We see the same with reality TV. It even comes to the point that bystanders passively watch atrocities without interfering as if it was on TV. What we are after is making people more feeling not less.
    • Thirdly it is wrong to associate something so ghastly with the Goddess. These shocking pictures can create lasting negative associations even if reason tells this makes no sense. We are not the rational beings we like to be. It is very important for people to have positive images. Positive images are uplifting. And we surely do not want to offend the Devas or peoples image of them.
    • We should always decline to use negative means if positive means are not exhausted. That is what Ramayama and Mahabharata teach us. Negative means may end a situation, but have negative dharmic effects themselves. Ultimately they only translate one evil into another. It is better to fight the evil one knows.
    • Also negative actions come from simplistic reasoning. For instance people often do not want to see that in these abuse situations, it is not simply a good being victim of evil theme, but there is more complicate dynamics that is different in each individual situation, like for instance a man being humiliated and taking it out on his wife. Often support proves a better solution than punishment.
    • Also we should be very careful not to portray women as victims. We would rather portray women as strong and self-confident. Abuse often stops when a women pulls together and find the courage to resist. Making people feel pity sends the opposite message. It says you are weak, you are victim. unconsciously this will lead to acceptance. It would be better to create a picture of Kali attacking the evildoer. Women must know ahimsa does not undermine the right to self-defence.
    • At the same time it would be good to direct a campaign at the men, in which the cowardice of such an act is stressed. Not so much a morally condemning campaign, but making men aware that such acts are demeaning to themselves. Most such men are not psychopaths, but are often damaged themselves by wrong upbringing, especially wrong examples from parents can lead to copying behaviour without seeing the true evil in it.
    • The true psychopaths we will not easily be able to influence, but luckily those are few and we should NOT base our measures on worst case scenarios. That is very wrong.
    The reason people use shocking images, stories is to create a row in the media that hopefully will get politics in action. People have the optimistic idea that government can change these things. But this often leads to symbol politics, in which symbolic measures are taken. Like more harsh sentences, this satisfies the moralists, but this has no effect on the crime.

    More effective measures are to create access to help, like phone numbers people can call too for advice or counsel. In my country there are special houses where people can go to and hide if they are in life threatening situations. This can also deter the man as he knows that he is now in the picture and further action will not go unnoticed. What also helps is making these things part of the soaps people watch in a profound manner. Not simply condemning, but for instance friends of the abuser questioning him how he could act in such a way etc. Give it a real dimension. I think there are lots of ways we can tackle this without destroying the positive image of our beloved Goddesses. Lets not forget Hindu Goddesses are shakti and fierce! Women are not at all weak. People much more easily become victims if they accept that role. We should NOT put women in the role of the victim. Putting the Goddesses in this role is in fact a serious undermining of the self-image of womanhood.
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 21 September 2013 at 05:25 AM.

  2. #12
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    Re: New Campaign Against Domestic Violence towards Women Using images of Devi

    Namaste,

    Thank you for educating me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Avyaydya View Post
    We should NOT put women in the role of the victim.
    At a personal level, what are you going to do to accomplish that in India?

    Pranam.
    Last edited by Believer; 20 September 2013 at 08:43 PM.

  3. #13

    Re: New Campaign Against Domestic Violence towards Women Using images of Devi

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,

    Thank you for educating me.

    At a personal level, what are you going to do to accomplish that in India?

    Pranam.
    Namaste,

    Nothing, I live in the Netherlands.

    I help people around me where I can help them.

    I am not a world saver that goes to other countries to save people from themselves. I think world savers are one of the prime causes of problems in the world.

    I believe in the saying: "improve the world, start with yourself"
    Make yourself more loving and the people around you will profit from that. That is the way to improve the world.

    Creating too big goals only makes people indifferent. In my country many people think that giving money to noble charity absolves them from helping people around them. They even put notes on their doors: do not ask me for help, I already pay for charity. That is what organized charity leads to.

    People in the different places in India must take their own responsibility. Create Local initiatives. People in the families must take responsibility too. When I notice abuse, I will talk to the abuser. It happened and I do not shy away from that.

    If help is dependent from strangers, it is not going to solve problems.

    Sorry, I do not have the missionary mentality

    You tell me why Krishna did not prevent the Mahabharata war and all its dreadful killings?
    Was it not in in his power or his Dharm?
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 21 September 2013 at 05:25 AM.

  4. #14
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    Re: New Campaign Against Domestic Violence towards Women Using images of Devi

    Quote Originally Posted by Avyaydya View Post
    It is wrong to associate something so ghastly with the Goddess. These shocking pictures can create lasting negative associations even if reason tells this makes no sense. We are not the rational beings we like to be. It is very important for people to have positive images. Positive images are uplifting. And we surely do not want to offend the Devas or peoples image of them.
    I agree.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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    Re: New Campaign Against Domestic Violence towards Women Using images of Devi

    Quote Originally Posted by Avyaydya View Post
    You tell me why Krishna did not prevent the Mahabharata war and all its dreadful killings? Was it not in in his power or his Dharm?
    He did try. I digress-
    In all the hindu mythohistory , there are two sandhi rayabara(m)s, simply meaning (attempted) negotiated settlements, peace missions etc, that are most talked about and are described in awe and exalt .One happened in Treta yuga to prevent Rama Ravana yudha(m) or war and the other in Dwapara yuga to prevent kurukshetra war in mahabharata.

    Vibhishana, the younger brother of Ravana , by then having already defected to Rama’s camp, went to Ravana’s durbar (court) playing a dual role as a messenger and more importantly as a negotiator from Rama urging a peaceful resolution to the conflict. He asked Ravana to quickly release and restore Sita’s dharmic life to let her live by her chosen freewill. ' IMPRISONMENT of a Stri (woman) is a sin which will not go unpunished', he carefully and respectfully cautioned his powerful older brother. Ravana may be cruel but was no such coward. Vibhishana was ridiculed and sent away empty handed. The result was The Epic War in Sri Lanka in which Ravana was annihilated.

    Sri Krishna was pained when Kauravas bluntly refused to restore their lands to Pandavas after the return from their 12 years of Aranya vasa (expulsion away from civilization, lit-life in forests/ wilderness) and one year of Agnata vasa (life in hiding, complete secrecy losing their identity and to live in impersonation,which they successfully did in the uttara kingdom). Krishna didn’t encourage war and more importantly ahimsa (non-violence) was his fervently recommended strategy to resolve ALL conflicts. He presented himself, alone without any fanfare, as a messenger of Pandavas and as a humble negotiator and explainedhis case to the jam packed Hastinapur court that was attended by all great and sundry rulers of the era. Krishna earnestly advised Duryodhana, “ O king of Hastinapur, give Pandavas a meager five small villages of land from your vast empire, so that they can rule over those lands and implement their dharmic way of life and order the way they see fit and right. This is the easiest way to resolve the impasse...”. Kauravas, instead of heeding the dharmic advice, to the chagrin of the likes of Bhishma and other wise men respectfully witnessing the proceedings of the famous raya baara and the rayabari (messenger), mocked Him and declared gleefully, “Pandavas don’t get even a tiny piece of land that would accommodate ‘five needles’ (meaning no land worth mentioning) and that is our final decision”.

    Krishna at that time, disappointed with the unjust decision of Kauravas having no option left, continued his mission to the Durbar (court) what He envisions the consequences of Plan B : a very violent and destructive war at the conclusion of which ‘winners get everything’ kind of scenario.
    These illustrious peace missions are coined as sandhi RAAYA BHARAS, that are most talked about by the experts. Namaste.

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    Re: New Campaign Against Domestic Violence towards Women Using images of Devi

    Coming back to the topic of the OP- this is Kali Yuga and remember, desperate times ned desperate measures and so unorthodox measures are justfied in dire circumstances. Stri ( woman) is depicted as Shakti in Hinduism so a bruised image sends stronger message to all hindus. This is the list of rapist murderers who were awarded death penalty last week in the Nirbhaya murder case, an excerpt- “Delivering his 20-page order in a packed courtroom, the judge noted that the "ghastly acts" of Mukesh (26), Akshay Thakur (28), Pawan Gupta (19) and Vinay Sharma (20) requires withdrawal of the "protective arm of the community from around them".

  7. #17

    Re: New Campaign Against Domestic Violence towards Women Using images of Devi

    Quote Originally Posted by charitra View Post
    He did try. I digress-
    In all the hindu mythohistory , there are two sandhi rayabara(m)s, simply meaning (attempted) negotiated settlements, peace missions etc, that are most talked about and are described in awe and exalt. One happened in Treta yuga to prevent Rama Ravana yudha(m) or war and the other in Dwapara yuga to prevent kurukshetra war in mahabharata.

    Vibhishana, the younger brother of Ravana , by then having already defected to Rama’s camp, went to Ravana’s durbar (court) playing a dual role as a messenger and more importantly as a negotiator from Rama urging a peaceful resolution to the conflict. He asked Ravana to quickly release and restore Sita’s dharmic life to let her live by her chosen freewill. ' IMPRISONMENT of a Stri (woman) is a sin which will not go unpunished', he carefully and respectfully cautioned his powerful older brother. Ravana may be cruel but was no such coward. Vibhishana was ridiculed and sent away empty handed. The result was The Epic War in Sri Lanka in which Ravana was annihilated.

    Sri Krishna was pained when Kauravas bluntly refused to restore their lands to Pandavas after the return from their 12 years of Aranya vasa (expulsion away from civilization, lit-life in forests/ wilderness) and one year of Agnata vasa (life in hiding, complete secrecy losing their identity and to live in impersonation,which they successfully did in the uttara kingdom). Krishna didn’t encourage war and more importantly ahimsa (non-violence) was his fervently recommended strategy to resolve ALL conflicts. He presented himself, alone without any fanfare, as a messenger of Pandavas and as a humble negotiator and explainedhis case to the jam packed Hastinapur court that was attended by all great and sundry rulers of the era. Krishna earnestly advised Duryodhana, “ O king of Hastinapur, give Pandavas a meager five small villages of land from your vast empire, so that they can rule over those lands and implement their dharmic way of life and order the way they see fit and right. This is the easiest way to resolve the impasse...”. Kauravas, instead of heeding the dharmic advice, to the chagrin of the likes of Bhishma and other wise men respectfully witnessing the proceedings of the famous raya baara and the rayabari (messenger), mocked Him and declared gleefully, “Pandavas don’t get even a tiny piece of land that would accommodate ‘five needles’ (meaning no land worth mentioning) and that is our final decision”.

    Krishna at that time, disappointed with the unjust decision of Kauravas having no option left, continued his mission to the Durbar (court) what He envisions the consequences of Plan B : a very violent and destructive war at the conclusion of which ‘winners get everything’ kind of scenario.
    These illustrious peace missions are coined as sandhi RAAYA BHARAS, that are most talked about by the experts. Namaste.
    Namaste,

    I know all that, and I was not criticising Krishna, so you need not defend his actions.

    I was simply asking: Why did Krishna not prevent the Mahabharata war and all its dreadful killings? Was it not in in his power or his Dharm?

    That question remains unanswered

    Quote Originally Posted by charitra View Post
    Coming back to the topic of the OP- this is Kali Yuga and remember, desperate times ned desperate measures and so unorthodox measures are justfied in dire circumstances.
    I do not agree with that. Our forefathers have witnessed far greater peril than us today and they did not present it as an excuse to become more savage.

    I do not agree that that the lessons of the Mahabharata do not apply today because we now live in Kali Yuga. I think it is is the other way round, these lessons were given us to help us through Kali Yuga.

    Stri ( woman) is depicted as Shakti in Hinduism so a bruised image sends stronger message to all hindus. This is the list of rapist murderers who were awarded death penalty last week in the Nirbhaya murder case, an excerpt- “Delivering his 20-page order in a packed courtroom, the judge noted that the "ghastly acts" of Mukesh (26), Akshay Thakur (28), Pawan Gupta (19) and Vinay Sharma (20) requires withdrawal of the "protective arm of the community from around them".
    Offenders need to be punished, that is the Dharm of the state. Punishment is in fact a service the state renders to both victims and evildoers. Evildoers need punishment to leave their dreadful acts behind them. Punishment of the state also relieves people from taking matters in their own hand and creating negative Karma for themselves. So adequate punishment is important. But punishment does not solve the problems that lead up to the crime.

    A bruised face creates temporary feelings of compassion and pity, but that does not solve the problem. It rather puts women in the role of the victim and that is the wrong role, and the wrong message. Victimizing people rather confirms their lack op power. Bruising Goddesses is an insult to the Goddess, sending the message that Goddesses can not defend themselves. As if Ma Durga is not the strongest force in the Universe, the only one able to defeat Raktabija.

    It happens that this issue is one of the main themes in the Mahabharata and Ramayana. The disrobing of Draupadi is one of the main reasons that the Mahabharata war became inevitable. Like the kidnapping of Sita was the main reason for the Ramayana war. In both cases women were robbed of their rights and dignity. And in both cases the consequences for the evildoers were fatal. The message we want to send is that of the strength of women, not their weakness.

    People overstate the role of the media to create things positive. The media is no more than the momentary emotion of the people. Outraged one moment and forgetful the next. Negative emotions do not contribute to positive solutions.

    Also the media create a bubble-like consciousness in which problems seem bigger when they get attention and smaller when they do not. It can easily happen that people suddenly become enraged about things that were far worse in the past. Or that things that enraged them in the past are now quietly swallowed. Other problems may be far bigger problems but receive little attention. It is manipulators that use the media, to steer the emotions of the people and they do that by creating strong effects. Good policy is not made in the spur of the moment when emotions boil over.

    The fact of the matter is that society will always be full of suffering because people create negative karma. This can not be changed by others as much as they like to take suffering out of the world. We only have control over the karma we create ourselves. The glorious thing about karma is that it harmonizes egoism and altruism. It is both in our egoistic interest not to do harm and help others, as it is in our altruistic loving interest. In understanding Karma the egoist and the altruist can find each other.

    Karma however does not mean that if I am beaten today, I have to accept beating tomorrow. We are as much obligated to defend the other person as our own person from harm. The first responsibility lays with ourselves and who ever witnesses it, than who know about it, the friends and family, then the local community, then the authority, at last the whole nation. The media like to turn things around: the nation must solve it.
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 21 September 2013 at 05:40 PM.

  8. #18
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    Re: New Campaign Against Domestic Violence towards Women Using images of Devi

    Namaste,

    Youth has always been and will continue to be wasted on the young.

    There are long, very well articlulated dissertations, but I have not had any help from the pro-ban lobby to my basic dilemma,

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    But help me with the following,

    If just one woman can escape only one round of being slapped around because of 'shockomercials', what should I tell her as to why I can't help her after having voted to block the use of image of Devi for this purpose?
    Pranam.

  9. #19

    Re: New Campaign Against Domestic Violence towards Women Using images of Devi

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    If just one woman can escape only one round of being slapped around because of 'shockomercials', what should I tell her as to why I can't help her after having voted to block the use of image of Devi for this purpose?
    Pranam-s,

    Well........... does the blocking of shockomercials correlate to an increase in women getting domestically abused? And, who says you can't help her after having voted to block the use of the Abused Goddess Campaign? There are more effective ways of assisting domestically abused women (and men) than Shock Advertising.

    Don't get me wrong, Shock Advertisement, as research shows, gets the attention of viewers very quickly......... sure - I'll grant you that. But, as the same research shows, the negative reactions outnumber the positive reactions. In fact, a majority of the reactions are all for the wrong reasons. Furthermore, the targeted audience is the one that is the least affected by the shockomercial.

  10. #20

    Re: New Campaign Against Domestic Violence towards Women Using images of Devi

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,

    Youth has always been and will continue to be wasted on the young.
    Namaste,

    As young Krishna shows us, youth is to be wasted. Wasted from the point of view of the fathers. The mothers are enchanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,

    There are long, very well articlulated dissertations, but I have not had any help from the pro-ban lobby to my basic dilemma,

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Originally Posted by Believer
    If just one woman can escape only one round of being slapped around because of 'shockomercials', what should I tell her as to why I can't help her after having voted to block the use of image of Devi for this purpose?
    Pranam.
    This is not a real dilemma, but a concoction of your mind.

    I can create endless similar dilemmas that would totally paralyse us if we took them seriously. Like:
    • Can I step into a car if there is only a small chance that I will kill people by this
    • Should I not always take a lifesaver ring with me for the small chance someone falls in the water and I have to save them.
    • Should I not always carry a gun for to save people in case a terrorist threatens them (The argument the weapon lobby uses in the US)
    • etc.
    Your question makes it seem that you become responsible for a strangers well-being because you disagree to slander the Goddesses.

    You suffer from wrongful appropriation. It is not all your responsibility that people suffer or die. You use the same kind of argument that Arjuna used against Krishna. He painted Krishna all the horrors of the war for which he would be responsible and then concluded it would be better not to fight at all.

    Krishna's answer: concentrate on your Dharm.

    You did not answer my question:
    Why did Krishna not prevent the Mahabharata war and all its dreadful killings? Was it not in in his power or his Dharm?
    Allow me to profit from the wisdom of old age
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 22 September 2013 at 08:55 AM.

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