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Thread: Pancharatra Agamas allow Upanayanam for women and Shudras?

  1. #11
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    Re: Pancharatra Agamas allow Upanayanam for women and Shudras?

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post


    In ISKCON the initiation process is carried out as described by Sanatana Goswami in his book Hari bhakti vilasa. If you read this book you will see which verses and scriptures he quoted there to explain how in Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition initiation should be carried out.
    Sanatana Goswami was one of the leading disciples of Sri Caitanya who had the task of explaining such things in his Hari bhakti vilasa.

    Note: Some sources say that the author of that book is Gopal Bhatta Goswami. There is controversy over the question of who is really the author of that book. I heard an opinion that is most likely that they together wrote that book.
    regards
    Thank you. Could you tell me where I coukd obtain a copy of this work in English?

    And does Sri Sanatana Goswami quote anything to the effect that the initiation is equivalent to upanayanam and allowed for non-dvijas?

    Thank you.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


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    Re: Pancharatra Agamas allow Upanayanam for women and Shudras?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post

    Sanathan, do you have the verse numbers? It would simplify matters.

    No, I don't have exact verse numbers, but I got the info from one of the Dvaita resources:

    https://sites.google.com/site/harshalarajesh/rishike

    Also I see following references on the matter in discussion:

    1. The Rig Veda (10.109.4) says, "When a brahmin's wife wears the auspicious thread, she becomes very popular."

    Ref: http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules...hp?itemid=3852

    2. "History of Dharmasastra" of P.V.Kane has the following lines :

    "
    An interesting question is whether women ever had upanayana performed, or whether they had to wear the sacred thread. Harita Dharmasutra, as quoted in the Smriti-candrika, says, 'There are two sorts of women. Those who are bramavadinis (students of sacred lore) and those that are sadyovadhus (who marry straightaway). Out of these, brahmavadinis have to go through upanayana, keeping fire, Vedic study and begging in one's house (under the parents' roof). But in the case of sadyovadhus, when their marriage is drawing near, the mere ceremony of upanayana should somehow be performed and then their marriage should be celebrated. Therefore bramavadini women had upanayana performed in the eighth year from conception, then studied Vedic lore and finished student-hood at the age of puberty.' "

  3. #13

    Re: Pancharatra Agamas allow Upanayanam for women and Shudras?

    Quote Originally Posted by sanathan View Post
    No, I don't have exact verse numbers, but I got the info from one of the Dvaita resources:

    https://sites.google.com/site/harshalarajesh/rishike

    Also I see following references on the matter in discussion:

    1. The Rig Veda (10.109.4) says, "When a brahmin's wife wears the auspicious thread, she becomes very popular."

    Ref: http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules...hp?itemid=3852


    I checked this reference against Griffith's translation online. It doesn't appear to be saying anything about a wife wearing sacred thread:


    1. THESE first, the boundless Sea, and Mātariśvan, fierce-glowing Fire, the Strong, the Bliss-
    bestower.
    And heavenly Floods, first-born by holy Order, exclaimed against the outrage on a Brahman.
    2 King Soma first of all, without reluctance, made restitution of the Brahman's consort.
    Mitra and Varuṇa were the inviters: Agni as Hota; took her hand and led her.
    3 The man, her pledge, must by her hand be taken when they have cried, She is a Brahman's consort. She stayed not for a herald to conduct her: thus is the kingdom of a ruler guarded.
    4 Thus spake of her those Gods of old, Seven Ṛṣis who sate them down to their austere devotion:
    Dire is a Brahman's wife led home by others: in the supremest heaven she plants confusion.
    5 The Brahmacari goes engaged in duty: he is a member of the Gods’ own body.
    Through him Bṛhaspati obtained his consort, as the Gods gained the ladle brought by Soma.
    6 So then the Gods restored her, so men gave the woman back again. The Kings who kept their promises restored the Brahman's wedded wife,
    7 Having restored the Brahman's wife, and freed them, with Gods’ aid, from sin,
    They shared the fulness of the earth, and won themselves extended sway.


    2. "History of Dharmasastra" of P.V.Kane has the following lines :

    "
    An interesting question is whether women ever had upanayana performed, or whether they had to wear the sacred thread. Harita Dharmasutra, as quoted in the Smriti-candrika, says, 'There are two sorts of women. Those who are bramavadinis (students of sacred lore) and those that are sadyovadhus (who marry straightaway). Out of these, brahmavadinis have to go through upanayana, keeping fire, Vedic study and begging in one's house (under the parents' roof). But in the case of sadyovadhus, when their marriage is drawing near, the mere ceremony of upanayana should somehow be performed and then their marriage should be celebrated. Therefore bramavadini women had upanayana performed in the eighth year from conception, then studied Vedic lore and finished student-hood at the age of puberty.' "
    If this is true, then I would really like to know why we so no evidence of this in practice today, the recent past, or even in other mainstream smRiti-s. Has the dharma changed for some reason?
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  4. #14

    Re: Pancharatra Agamas allow Upanayanam for women and Shudras?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    Thank you. Could you tell me where I coukd obtain a copy of this work in English?

    And does Sri Sanatana Goswami quote anything to the effect that the initiation is equivalent to upanayanam and allowed for non-dvijas?

    Thank you.
    Hari-bhakti vilasa is available all over the internet for free in English. I think rasabihari.com or krishna.com or one of the other ISKCON websites might be selling a good translation.

    Just FYI, much to brahma-jijnasa's chagrin, I distinctly remember reading in HBV a reference to the ideal guru coming from a "noble family," thus implying that the early gosvAmI-s did not support the current ISKCON conception of initiating non-brahmins as brahmins. I'll see if I can find the reference.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  5. #15

    Re: Pancharatra Agamas allow Upanayanam for women and Shudras?

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    Hari-bhakti vilasa is available all over the internet for free in English. I think rasabihari.com or krishna.com or one of the other ISKCON websites might be selling a good translation.

    Just FYI, much to brahma-jijnasa's chagrin, I distinctly remember reading in HBV a reference to the ideal guru coming from a "noble family," thus implying that the early gosvAmI-s did not support the current ISKCON conception of initiating non-brahmins as brahmins. I'll see if I can find the reference.

    I found the reference - it's verse 38 of hari-bhakti-viLAsa:

    atha visheShataH shrI-guror lakShaNAni

    mantra-muktAvalyAm

    avadAtAnvaya-shuddhaH svochitAchAra-tat-paraH |
    AshramI krodha-rahito veda-vit sarva-shAstra-vit ||

    "The Qualities of a Genuine Spiritual Master

    In shri mantra-muktAvaLI it is said:

    'A genuine spiritual master is saintly, born in a pure family, diligent in performing his prescribed duties, a follower of varëäçrama, devoid of anger, learned in the Vedas and scriptures, . . .'

    That would definitely indicate that initiating people as gurus when they were born into impure families is not as per the directions of sanAtana-gosvAmI
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: Pancharatra Agamas allow Upanayanam for women and Shudras?

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post

    If this is true, then I would really like to know why we so no evidence of this in practice today, the recent past, or even in other mainstream smRiti-s. Has the dharma changed for some reason?
    I have read some indologists say that women and shudras did undergo upanayanam and study the vedas until lakulisha brought about his reformation and forbade this, and the smritis were edited acvordingly.
    I am still trying to verify the authenticity of panini supposedly referring to female students of the vedas in his Aahtadhyayi. If that is true tgen perhaps this theory has some merit.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

  7. #17

    Re: Pancharatra Agamas allow Upanayanam for women and Shudras?

    Namaste

    There is a lady in Pune who teaches vedic chants such as Rudra and Purusha Sukta to [a handful of] women. She herself has undergone Vedpathsala schooling, conducts yajnas, and has undergone the thread ceremony, as well as had some girls receive the upanayana and related saMskAr. She also chants the GAyatri herself, but of course does not / cannot pass it on to her students. Her group chants Shri Sukta during navarAtri and Rudra during shrAvaN.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Pancharatra Agamas allow Upanayanam for women and Shudras?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    And does Sri Sanatana Goswami quote anything to the effect that the initiation is equivalent to upanayanam and allowed for non-dvijas?
    There is one smarta on this forums who wants to pollute you with his nonsensical arguments, as usual . He now claims that Sanatana Goswami did not believe that a person born in the impure family can become a guru. He is really astonishing and untiring. Where does he find all this pointless and silly arguments? He really has them in abundance.

    Now, when we talk about "initiation for non-dvijas" it has sense only if a person is born with a brahminical qualities in any of families: brahmana, kshatriya, vaishya or shudra or even mleccha. I do not believe that Sanatana Goswami thought that a person who does not possess the qualities of a brahmana can be initiated. I hope that you understand that, and that all those VAD threads were not in vain.
    As an introduction to the topic I recommend these three:
    http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/24/331/
    http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/15/108/
    http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/23/105/

    regards

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    Re: Pancharatra Agamas allow Upanayanam for women and Shudras?

    Namaste, what I am looking for is evidence from the pancharatra allowing upanayanam for women and shudras.

    Since ISKCON claims its initiation process is based on sanatkumara samhita of the pancharatra and the non ISKCON blogger whose article I posted to start the thread also agrees that the said text allows upanayanam for women and shudras, there should be such evidence.

    If you can find and post such quotes from the pancharatra, it will also have the effect of conclusively proving your position to fellow Vaishnavas.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

  10. #20

    Re: Pancharatra Agamas allow Upanayanam for women and Shudras?

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post

    There is one smarta on this forums who wants to pollute you with his nonsensical arguments, as usual . He now claims that Sanatana Goswami did not believe that a person born in the impure family can become a guru. He is really astonishing and untiring. Where does he find all this pointless and silly arguments?
    From hari-bhakti-viLAsa, which was written by shrI sanAtana gosvAmI.

    Believe what you wish, but that's what he wrote. You can find many copies of this text online. I found it on a website called iskcondesiretree.com or something like that.

    verse 38 of hari-bhakti-viLAsa:

    atha visheShataH shrI-guror lakShaNAni

    mantra-muktAvalyAm

    avadAtAnvaya-shuddhaH svochitAchAra-tat-paraH |
    AshramI krodha-rahito veda-vit sarva-shAstra-vit ||

    "The Qualities of a Genuine Spiritual Master

    In shri mantra-muktAvaLI it is said:

    'A genuine spiritual master is saintly, born in a pure family, diligent in performing his prescribed duties, a follower of varNAshrama, devoid of anger, learned in the Vedas and scriptures, . . .'


    Personally, I don't care one way or another what the gauDIya stance is on this. But from what I can see, early gauDIya vaiShNava-s did subscribe to the familial basis of varNAshrama, and the current conception of "varNa by quality not birth" (which lead to multiple, multiple degraded swamis worldwide) appears to be more of a modern, ISKCON invention. Any time you wish to discuss the superiority of "varNa by quality, not birth," I would be happy to review ISKCON's track record with you on manufacturing these "by quality" gurus.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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