Page 1 of 9 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 84

Thread: Adi shankara Posts - Jalpa Thread 2

  1. #1
    Join Date
    January 2007
    Location
    duhkhalayam asasvatam
    Posts
    1,448
    Rep Power
    79

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Prabam Omkara

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara

    If you leave aside the controvery about "Vinayaka" for a moment you will notice the unequivocal condemnation of the worship of the matrikas in the same paragraph.
    Also, Sri Vaishnava says Shankaracharya has referred to Surya and Rudra as jivas in his upanishad bhashyas.

    So there goes the myth that Shankaracharya was a Smarta.
    How does this prove Shankaracharya's position? on say so off Sri Vaishnava!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara
    After thinking over it a bit, my opinion is- There are pretas in the puranas called vinayakas, matrikas,bhaginis etc and it is possible that Shankarachary is referring to them. On the other hand, there is no evidence that worship of pretas was common in 8th century India, so it would be slightly unlikely that Shankaracharya is using a near-extinct tradition as an example.
    Both interpretations of Shankaracharya's words are feasible.
    Now that many opinion have been put forward, with pramanas, if i were to draw a conclusion, the general opinion seems to be that Sri Shankracharya in his bhasya on 9.25, as you seem to agree also, that he was not talking off Ganesha, based on that do you still believe Ganesh Bhujangam - Adi Shankaracharya is of later works? after all, all this argument about Sankacharya stemmed from this conversation of ours.
    scholars views notwithstanding if i were to trust anyone on this matter it would be its own sampradaya who would convince me of its authenticity, this debate it self proves that there is so much vested interest.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    June 2012
    Location
    Mumbai, India
    Age
    23
    Posts
    1,088
    Rep Power
    1116

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    based on that do you still believe Ganesh Bhujangam - Adi Shankaracharya is of later works? after all, all this argument about Sankacharya stemmed from this conversation of ours.
    scholars views notwithstanding if i were to trust anyone on this matter it would be its own sampradaya who would convince me of its authenticity, this debate it self proves that there is so much vested interest.
    Why don't you post this question on the advaita mailing list and ask them what they beleive?

    Shankara wrote his first bhashya at the age of 13. He was 32 when he died. If you think that in nineteen years he authored all the hundereds of works attributed to him whike travelling across India on foot....

    Later advaitins like Vidyaranya have listed out his works, and they consist of prasthanatrayi bhashyas and a few prakarana granthas.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

  3. #3
    Join Date
    January 2007
    Location
    duhkhalayam asasvatam
    Posts
    1,448
    Rep Power
    79

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    Why don't you post this question on the advaita mailing list and ask them what they beleive?
    Why are you dodging the question posed to you, it was you who questioned Ganesh Bhujanga based on BG9.25, making a case for it. Based on that discussion you either concede or be adamant, choice is yours.

    Shankara wrote his first bhashya at the age of 13. He was 32 when he died. If you think that in nineteen years he authored all the hundereds of works attributed to him whike travelling across India on foot....
    .
    Does this not tell you how extra ordinary this personality is, it is not beyond the realm of possibility for him to author hundreds of works besides he had hundreds of capable disciples who could have scribed his work.

    I have no academic interest in such matters nor do I base my understanding solely on his teachings, actually I do not even follow Adwaita, that is not to say those who follow it are wrong. So no I will not be inquiring this on adwaita mailing list.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    June 2012
    Location
    Mumbai, India
    Age
    23
    Posts
    1,088
    Rep Power
    1116

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post

    Why are you dodging the question posed to you, it was you who questioned Ganesh Bhujanga based on BG9.25, making a case for it. Based on that discussion you either concede or be adamant, choice is yours.
    I did not question the veracity of Shankara's stotras based on his commentary on Gita 9.25. I questioned it based on the fact that it is not considered an authentic work of Shankaracharya by scholars, both Advaitin and non-Advaitin, Hindu and Non-Hindu.

    Besides which it contradicts the bhashya on Gita 9.25.

    Deva-vratah, votaries of the gods, those whose religious observances [Making offerings and presents, circumambulation bowing down, etc.] and devotion are directed to the gods; yanti reach, go to; devan, the gods. Pitr-vratah, the votaries of the manes, those who are occupied with such rites as obsequies etc. manes, those who are occupied with such rites as obsequies etc. who are devoted to the manes; go pitrn, to the manes such as Agnisvatta and others. Bhutejyah, the Beings such as Vinayaka, the group of Sixteen (divine) Mothers, the Four Sisters, and others. And madyajinah, those who worship Me, those who are given to worshipping Me; reach mam, Me alone Although the effort (involved) is the same, still owing to ingorance they do not worship Me exclusively. Thereby they attain lesser results. This is the meaning.

    Even if ascribe another meaning to the word Vinayaka, what do you say about the fact that Shankaracharya says those who worship gods other than Lord Vishnu do so out of ignorance.
    Last edited by Omkara; 26 September 2013 at 05:57 AM.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

  5. #5
    Join Date
    December 2012
    Posts
    552
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    I have problems with this logic.
    While we say 'Jack is a tall boy' and the attributes of Jack's physical body are applied to the Jiva Jack due to the inseparable relation between soul and the body, 'Jack' is a term that refers to the inseparable combination of the soul and the body. Thus we can say "Jack was born on 12th June 1984" wherein are referring to the body of the composite entity Jack. We can also say that "Jack has existed for all eternity" wherein we are referring to the eternal soul in the composite entity "Jack".

    We cannot, however attribute to individual components of "Jack" attributes of each other. We cannot say "Jack's body has existed forever " or "Jack's soul was born on so-and-so date"

    Similarly, Brahman abd Jiva are parts of a composite which is as inseparable as the body and the soul. However, we cannot say that Brahman is a being of limited knowledge who transmigrates under the influence of Karma, because we are attributing properties of the other part of the Brahman-Jiva composite to Brahman.

    Similarly, we cannot go upto a particular jiva and tell him "You are the supreme lord who creates, sustains and destroys the universe" and then invoke the inseparability of the Antaryamin and Jiva.

    Keep in mind that I am not saying that Ganesha is the Supreme Brahman. He is a Jiva.
    Paramatma and Jiva soul (Jivatma) are together in the heart of every living being. Paramatma and Jivatma are eternally two separate selves (two separate atmas).
    When we describe them by words something refers to one (paramatma) and something to another one (jivatma).

    regards

  6. #6
    Join Date
    June 2012
    Location
    Mumbai, India
    Age
    23
    Posts
    1,088
    Rep Power
    1116

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post


    Paramatma and Jiva soul (Jivatma) are together in the heart of every living being. Paramatma and Jivatma are eternally two separate selves (two separate atmas).
    When we describe them by words something refers to one (paramatma) and something to another one (jivatma).

    regards
    I never denied that. I merely pointed out that a name, like "Jack" refers to a composite body-soul entity thus the word can be taken as denoting the soul or the body depending on context.

    However the words "I" and "You" are refer only to the person being addressed by the speaker.

    Just as one cannot say "The parabharahman is atomic in size and bound by karma" even though Brahman and jiva are inseparable nor can we say "The jiva is omnipotent".

    Thus this interpretation is not feasible IMO.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

  7. #7
    Join Date
    December 2012
    Posts
    552
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by jignyAsu View Post
    As Philosoraptor mentioned, I quoted that only for Vedic hymns of various deities like Lord Brahma, Agni etc. as opposed to using (Rajasic)Puranas under heavy interpolation. The Bhagavatam verse talks about worshiping deities alongside with Lord Narayana while you are using it to worship deities installed in a separate temple. Worshiping Lord with His associates and guru is but basic Vaishnavam but you are using it to rationalize worship other deities.

    We give a lot of importance to the agamas used to install a deity.
    You missed my point.
    I am not saying that Vaishnavas should perform a separate worship because it is not common for Vaishnava practice:

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa
    In my post on Ganesha I said "Scriptures approve worship of the gods, eternally liberated souls, etc., the only question is what of all that is common for Vaishnava practice."
    My point was that Vaishnava should not fear that he will be accused of being worshiper of the demigods even if he performs such a separate worship because we have an example of Radha's eulogy of Ganesha:

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa
    So Radha's eulogy of Ganesha is, obviously, addressed not to him but to the paramatma or the supreme Lord situated in his heart. This paramatma is called antaryami or the Supersoul existing in everyone's heart.
    That's the point. A Vaishnava should keep in mind when gods (sometimes called "demigods"), eternally liberated souls and other divine beings have been eulogised in this manner, these words are addressed to the Lord. So they are not worshiped as an independent divinities.
    ...

    They do not realize that Sri Radha's worship of Ganesha is not contrary to Vaishnava doctrine if properly understood. Sri Radha was not a demigod worshiper. She did not think "I surrender my life in the hands of Ganesha. He is my Lord, he is Supreme Brahman, etc".
    I think I was clear on this matter when I said that the words of Sri Radha's eulogy were not actually addressed to Ganesha but were addressed to the Supreme Lord, Supreme Brahman situated in his heart in the form of paramatma.
    So then whom is she worshiped? Ganesha or The Supreme Lord who is Supreme Brahman?
    The answer is obvious.
    regards

  8. #8
    Join Date
    December 2012
    Posts
    552
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    I never denied that. I merely pointed out that a name, like "Jack" refers to a composite body-soul entity thus the word can be taken as denoting the soul or the body depending on context.

    However the words "I" and "You" are refer only to the person being addressed by the speaker.

    Just as one cannot say "The parabharahman is atomic in size and bound by karma" even though Brahman and jiva are inseparable nor can we say "The jiva is omnipotent".

    Thus this interpretation is not feasible IMO.
    Still I do not see what is not feasible in that.
    If you understand that jivatma and paramatma are two separate souls although they also are connected, then there is no reason why it should not be feasible.

    regards
    Last edited by brahma jijnasa; 31 October 2013 at 05:53 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    January 2007
    Location
    duhkhalayam asasvatam
    Posts
    1,448
    Rep Power
    79

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    I did not question the veracity of Shankara's stotras based on his commentary on Gita 9.25. I questioned it based on the fact that it is not considered an authentic work of Shankaracharya by scholars, both Advaitin and non-Advaitin, Hindu and Non-Hindu. This has been discussed extensively at the addvaita list and no one takes the position that alk works ascribed to Shankara are his.

    Please see - http://www.easterntradition.org/sank...al%20works.pdf
    for an overview on the issue.
    Interesting read thanks but i will pass when we can't even establish 6th or 8th century it is all conjecture.

    Besides which it contradicts the bhashya on Gita 9.25.

    Deva-vratah, votaries of the gods, those whose religious observances [Making offerings and presents, circumambulation bowing down, etc.] and devotion are directed to the gods; yanti reach, go to; devan, the gods. Pitr-vratah, the votaries of the manes, those who are occupied with such rites as obsequies etc. manes, those who are occupied with such rites as obsequies etc. who are devoted to the manes; go pitrn, to the manes such as Agnisvatta and others. Bhutejyah, the Beings such as Vinayaka, the group of Sixteen (divine) Mothers, the Four Sisters, and others. And madyajinah, those who worship Me, those who are given to worshipping Me; reach mam, Me alone Although the effort (involved) is the same, still owing to ingorance they do not worship Me exclusively. Thereby they attain lesser results. This is the meaning.

    Even if ascribe another meaning to the word Vinayaka, what do you say about the fact that Shankaracharya says those who worship gods other than him do so out of ignorance.
    nothing new here he his repeating what lord Krishna says in text 23, off course making same effort to attain lesser result would be ignorance but does this mean both krishna and sankara are saying worshiping devas is ignorance? well not in my understanding,far from it why ? because if you look up chapter three verse 11/12 explicit instruction to worship the devas, if it was meant to be ignorance worship surely this instruction of Krishna must be questioned so it becomes incumbent on us to to arrive at correct context for verse 9.25. Not only chapter 3 look at chapter 17.4

    yajante sattvika devan
    yaksa-raksamsi rajasah
    pretan bhuta-ganams canye
    yajante tamasa janah

    directly in correlation with 9.25

    those who in mode of ignorance worship pretan bhuta ganams, you can hardly call deva worship as in ignorance when clearly Lord Krishna says those who are in mode of goodness worship Devas

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    June 2012
    Location
    Mumbai, India
    Age
    23
    Posts
    1,088
    Rep Power
    1116

    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    nothing new here he his repeating what lord Krishna says in text 23, off course making same effort to attain lesser result would be ignorance but does this mean both krishna and sankara are saying worshiping devas is ignorance? well not in my understanding,far from it why ? because if you look up chapter three verse 11/12 explicit instruction to worship the devas, if it was meant to be ignorance worship surely this instruction of Krishna must be questioned so it becomes incumbent on us to to arrive at correct context for verse 9.25. Not only chapter 3 look at chapter 17.4

    yajante sattvika devan
    yaksa-raksamsi rajasah
    pretan bhuta-ganams canye
    yajante tamasa janah

    directly in correlation with 9.25

    those who in mode of ignorance worship pretan bhuta ganams, you can hardly call deva worship as in ignorance when clearly Lord Krishna says those who are in mode of goodness worship Devas

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Both of these are references to the sacrifices in the vedic karma kanda, as yajnas are clearly mentioned these have no relevance to the topic at hand, as Krishna says he is the recepient of all vedic sacrifices.

    I will ask again- Why does Shankaracharya say worshipping devas other than Lord Vishnu is done in ignorance?
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 48
    Last Post: 13 October 2011, 12:22 AM
  2. New posts refersh rate
    By Onkara in forum Feedback
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 21 June 2011, 05:44 PM
  3. Recommendation: jalpa
    By yajvan in forum Feedback
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 13 September 2010, 11:06 AM
  4. Tattvas
    By grames in forum Advaita
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 14 October 2009, 08:55 AM
  5. Some questions on HK
    By Yogkriya in forum Hare Krishna (ISKCON)
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 06 August 2007, 03:03 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •