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  1. #11
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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post

    I will ask again- Why does Shankaracharya say worshipping devas other than Lord Vishnu is done in ignorance?
    last few verses could shed some light on it.

    Here, Ishvara is separated from demi-gods.

    In last verse Adi Shankara says, 'me' has to be taken as 'Atman'

    Hindi translation by Sri Harikrishandas Goenka (on Sri Sankaracharya's Sanskrit Commentary)

    किस प्रकार ( भजन-सेवा करें सो कहा जाता है -- ) तू मन्मना -- मुझमें ही मनवाला हो। मद्भक्त -- मेरा ही भक्त हो। मद्याजी -- मेरा ही पूजन करनेवाला हो और मुझे ही नमस्कार किया कर। इस प्रकार चित्तको मुझमें लगाकर मेरे परायण -- शरण हुआ तू मुझ परमेश्वरको ही प्राप्त हो जायगा। अभिप्राय यह कि मैं ही सब भूतोंका आत्मा और परमगति -- परम स्थान हूँ, ऐसा जो मैं आत्मरूप हूँ उसीको तू प्राप्त हो जायगा। इस प्रकार पहलेके 'माम्' शब्दसे 'आत्मानम्' शब्दका सम्बन्ध है ।।9.34।।

    9.34 Manmana bhava, have your mind fixed on Me; Here Ast. adds the word vasudeva.-Tr and also be madbhakah, devoted to Me. Madyaji, sacrifice to Me, be engaged in sacrificing to Me. And namaskuru, bow down; only mam, to Me. Yuktva, by concentrating your mind; and mat-parayanah, by accepting Me as the supreme Goal; esyasi eva, you shall surely attain; mam, Me who am God. You shall attain Me evam atmanam, who am thus the Self: I indeed am the Self of all the beings, and am also the supreme Goal. You shall attain Me who am such. In this way, the word atmanam (Self) is to be connected with the preceding word mam (Me). This is the purport.

    Note: This is vaishnava forum. Should this be taken to another forum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

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  2. #12
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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    Both of these are references to the sacrifices in the vedic karma kanda, as yajnas are clearly mentioned these have no relevance to the topic at hand, as Krishna says he is the recepient of all vedic sacrifices.
    --
    rubbish, while 3.10/11 are related to karmakand chapter 17 verse is a clear indication of worship of Devas in the mode off good ness.
    how do you propose worship of devas etc to be done in 9.25?

    we have hit an impasse here, there is no further benefit of discussion to be had here.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  3. #13
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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post
    In last verse Adi Shankara says, 'me' has to be taken as 'Atman'
    No, he equates Narayana to the atman, which he equates to Brahman. He has done this in other texts too.

    Atma here means indwelling controller or Antaryamin. Krishna (and Shankaracharya ) are saying that since Lord Vishnu is the indwelling controller of all deities, worshipping tgem is superfluous.


    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post
    Here, Ishvara is separated from demi-gods
    There is no proof Shankaracharya was a Smarta. He has not equated any other deity to Brahman even once in his bhashyas. I have asked again and again- Skanda Purana and Shiva purana identify the Supreme being who humiliated the devas in Kena upanishad as Shiva. Why does Shankaracharya not acknowledge this in his bhashya?
    Last edited by Omkara; 26 September 2013 at 08:21 AM.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


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  4. #14
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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    pranam

    rubbish, while 3.10/11 are related to karmakand chapter 17 verse is a clear indication of worship of Devas in the mode off good ness.
    how do you propose worship of devas etc to be done in 9.25?
    Nonsense. The word used is yajante.

    Have you read even one bhashya by any acharya? What impels you to constany pick up fights on subjects you know nothing about?
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    Nonsense. The word used is yajante.
    Oh really tell me something I don't know, why don't you tell us what "Yajnte" means, and while you are at it do let us know what 9.25 suppose to be, you will find the context in 9.24, if it says any different from 17.4 do let me know.

    Have you read even one bhashya by any acharya? What impels you to constany pick up fights on subjects you know nothing about?
    Grow up, I was not even responding to you, when you brought in this verse and the Bhasya in response to my post,weather I read any Bhasya is irrelevant, what makes you think I am picking fights, let me ask you are you a closet Vaishnava?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  6. #16
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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Oh really tell me something I don't know, why don't you tell us what "Yajnte" means
    It means "to perform a yajna" or "to worship by means of a yajna.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    and while you are at it do let us know what 9.25 suppose to be, you will find the context in 9.24, if it says any different from 17.4 do let me know.
    I have aldready explained in my reply to Amrut-
    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    Atma here means indwelling controller or Antaryamin. Krishna (and Shankaracharya ) are saying that since Lord Vishnu is the indwelling controller of all deities, worshipping them is superfluous.

    There is no proof Shankaracharya was a Smarta. He has not equated any other deity to Brahman even once in his bhashyas. I have asked again and again- Skanda Purana and Shiva purana identify the Supreme being who humiliated the devas in Kena upanishad as Shiva. Why does Shankaracharya not acknowledge this in his bhashya?
    Please see what Shankaracharya has to say on the subject-
    23. Even those who, being devoted to other deities and endowed with faith, worship(them), they also, O son of Kunti, worship Me alone (though) following the wrong method. Api, even; ye, those who; anya-devata-bhaktah, being devoted to tother deities; and anvitah sraddhaya, endowed with faith; yajante, worship (them), te api, they also; O son of Kunti, yajanti, worship; mam, Me; eva, alone; (though) avidhi-purvakam, following the wrong method. Avidhi implies ignorance. So the idea is that they worship (Me) ignorantly.'How it is that they worship (Me) ignorantly?' [i.e. the worshippers of other deities worship them knowingly, and hence, how can the question of their gnorance arise?] This is being answered: Because-

    24. I indeed am the enjoyer as also the Lord of all sacrifices; but they do not know Me in reality. Therefore they fall As the Self of the deities (of the sacrifices), aham, I; hi, indeed; am the bhokta enjoyer; ca eva, as also; the prabhuh, Lord; [The Lord: 'I being the indwelling enjoyer; ca eva, as also; the prabhuh, Lord; [The Lord: 'I being the indwelling Ruler of all.'] sarva-yajnanam, of all sacrifices enjoined by the Vedas and the Smrtis. A sacrifice is verily presided over by Me, for it has been said earlier, 'I Smrtis. A sacrifice is verily presided over by Me, for it has been said earlier, 'I Myself am the entity (called Visnu) that exists in the sacrifice in this body' (8.4). Tu, but; na abhi-jananti, they do not know; mam, Me as such; tattvena, in reality. And atah, therefore, by worshipping ignorantly; te, they; cyavanti, fall from the result of the sacrifice. ['Although they perform sacrifices with great diligence, still just because they do not know Me real nature and do not offer the fruits of their sacrifices to Me, they proceed to the worlds of the respective deities through the Southern Path (beginning with smoke; see 8.25). Then, after the exhaustion of the results of those sacrifices and the falling of the respective bodies (assumed in those worlds) they return to the human world for rembodiment.'-M.S. (See also 9.20-1.)] after the exhaustion of the results of those sacrifices and the falling of the after the exhaustion of the results of those sacrifices and the falling of the respective bodies (assumed in those worlds) they return to the human world for rembodiment.'-M.S. (See also 9.20-1.)] respective bodies (assumed in those worlds) they return to the human world respective bodies (assumed in those worlds) they return to the human world for rembodiment.'-M.S. (See also 9.20-1.)] The result of a sacrifice is inevitable even for those who worship ignorantly out of their devotion to other deities. How?

    25. Votaries of the gods reach the gods; the votarites of the manes go to the manes the worshippers of the Beings reach the Beings; and those who worship Me reach Me. Deva-vratah, votaries of the gods, those whose religious observances [Making offerings and presents, circumambulation, bowing down, etc.] and devotion are directed to the gods; yanti, reach, go to; devan, the gods. Pitr-vratah, the votaries of the manes, those who are occupied with such rites as obsequies etc., who are devoted to the manes; go pitrn, to the manes such as Agnisvatta and others. Bhutejyah, the Beings such as Vinayaka, the group of Sixteen(divine) Mothers, the Four Sisters, and others. And madyajinah, those who worship Me, those who are given to worshipping Me, the devotees of Visnu; worship Me, those who are given to worshipping Me, the devotees of Visnu; reach mam, Me alone. Although the effort (involved) is the same, still owing to ingorance they do not worship Me exclusively. Thereby they attain lesser results. This is the meaning. reach mam, Me alone. Although the effort (involved) is the same, still owing to ngorance they do not worship Me exclusively. Thereby they attain lesser results. This is the meaning'Not only do My devotees get the everlasting result in the form of non-return(to this world), but My worship also is easy.' How?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    let me ask you are you a closet Vaishnava?
    I think I have made my views sufficiently clear in the thread "Lord Shiva in the Vedas"
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


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  7. #17
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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    Both of these are references to the sacrifices in the vedic karma kanda, as yajnas are clearly mentioned these have no relevance to the topic at hand, as Krishna says he is the recepient of all vedic sacrifices.
    i ask again how is this irrelevant bg 9.23-5 yajante
    TEXT 23

    ye 'py anya-devata-bhakta
    yajante sraddhayanvitah
    te 'pi mam eva kaunteya
    yajanty avidhi-purvakam

    Chapter 17. The Divisions of Faith
    TEXT 4

    yajante sattvika devan
    yaksa-raksamsi rajasah
    pretan bhuta-ganams canye
    yajante tamasa janah

    TEXT 10

    saha-yajnah prajah srstva
    purovaca prajapatih
    anena prasavisyadhvam
    esa vo 'stv ista-kama-dhuk

    your definition
    It means "to perform a yajna" or "to worship by means of a yajna.
    so now tell me how is these irrelevant?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  8. #18
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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Now you are deliberately trolling, if you were not before.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
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  9. #19
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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    There is no proof Shankaracharya was a Smarta. He has not equated any other deity to Brahman even once in his bhashyas. I have asked again and again- Skanda Purana and Shiva purana identify the Supreme being who humiliated the devas in Kena upanishad as Shiva. Why does Shankaracharya not acknowledge this in his bhashya?
    Namaste,

    I am not claiming Adi Shankara was a smarta.

    I have checked bhasya of 3.12 ken Up.

    In pada bhasya, it is said (in hindi), उमारुपिणि - स्त्रीवेशधारिणी उमारुपा विद्यादेवी further it says, knowledge (vidya) is the most auspicious (शोभायमान), as knowledge is the most auspicious.

    In vakya-bhasya, it contains the word हैमवती. there is a statement (in hindi)

    वह सर्वदा उस सर्वज्ञ ईश्वरके साथ वर्तमान रहती है; अतः उसे ज्ञानमें समर्थ होगी - ...

    It can be concluded that

    1. Uma, Haimavati means Maa Parvati, consort of Lord Shiva
    2. She appears in the form of lady and she is of the form of vidya (vidya-svarupa)
    3. She knows the truth (later she tells the truth that this was brahman who vanished)
    4. To stay with sarvaGYa Ishvara means to be with Lord Shiva --> Knowledge stays with Lord. They both cannot be separated. Jnana-svarupa.

    Though Adi Shankara has not used the word 'Shiva' or 'Rudra', he has made reference to Lord Shiva

    Again, Since Shiva is Brahman as the context, as I understand is of formless, which is shown here by saying that -- Knowledge appeared in the form of a Lady (Maa Parvati). It was ego which was not allowing Indra to see Ishvara. Since the incident is in dramatic form, hence the word 'seeing' is used. The word darshan, though is taken as 'seeing' can means 'to know' and the word Ishvara in this context of knowledge appearing in form of a lady can be taken as Brahman. Here humiliation means removal of ego, which happened to Indra, Agni and Vayu deva(s)

    If this logic is correct, and hopefully no translation error (as I checked the presence of critical sanskrit words), then it means that Vishnu, Shiva and Parvati (Adi Shakti) are one and the same.

    I know there is no direct reference of Shiva as Brahman, but knowledge is Brahman.

    Publication: Gita Press, Gorakhpur (Hindi).

    Namo Narayana
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

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  10. #20
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    Re: Ganapathi pooja in Vaishnavism

    Pranams,

    Taking this discussion further would mean hijacking this thread (it is already derailed). I will stop here. I will surely read the response of Omkara and others but will remain passive. Digging further would be a time consuming affair for me. This thread is a better option but since it is in jalpa, members may have lost interest in it

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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