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Thread: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

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    Smile Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Namaste , hari ram.

    Here is my simple question ? # To all my dear dvaitian vaishnawas . .

    Why shri krushn never used vaikuntha in bhagavad gita ? Besides , In anu gita , uddhava gita also , he never used any vaikuntha word as final mosksh. If vaikuntha was really a final mosksh , then shri Krishna would have said like that ?

    In bhagavad gita , krishna uses many words like , matbhavam , becomes bramhan , nondifferent from me , enter into the supreme . These all are indicating only advaitik philosophy . In anu gita too , krishna teaches advaita knowledge to his disciple arjuna.

    Now the question # Is vaikuntha a state of bramh ?


    edited : This is taken from my post #52 :

    It is said that He who performs actions according to the systems postulated in Vedas by vishnu , will reach him either in a form or image or in an abstract power as is his liking.

    But there is a mention about direct personal experiencing of God as a form, a living being.
    This opinion is of the Pancharatra Agama. Those who embrace that opinion think that Vaikuntha is the highest place.
    Now please note that in Vedanta the Lord has said that Vaikuntha was created by him outside the seven covers or planes of Maya but within the field of Maya.

    There it is mentioned that Maya is a sport of the God and by that sport he has created Vaikuntha and therefore Vaikuntha is not perishable.Where Purshottma whose colour is like that of a cloud resides in a body which is created by his own will through his own Maya, there Guna Time Karma and Maya, being all only illusions cannot remain.

    the opinion of Agama is that Vaikuntha is eternal and non-destructible and there is no birth and death and those who reach that level of consciousness reside there in their eternal freedom.
    Vedanta however opines that at the time of total dissolution of the Universe, even Vaikuntha and Kailasa are annihilated because they are also forms .
    At that time, only that which is beyond the Gunas remains as it is and it is the absolute Brahman which is eternal and non-perishable.


    The state where, Time, Karma, Guan, Dharma, Maya are all not existing is really the absolute Brahman. In Vaikuntha the Sayujjyata liberation which can be attained is with Gunas but the absolute Brahman is the state where Maya is dissolved and that is complete Sayujjyata.


    In this connection, the Brahma Sutra says those who considers atma and bramhan different have all the glory of God to enjoy but they do not become the bramhan.


    If you are not one with God, you maintain a distance from God even at that height of achievement.
    Then, what will be your future?! How long will you be in Vaikuntha-Loka, Kailasa, Brahma-Loka or the Heaven where God abides? How long will you stay there? To be in that condition will be to enjoy the contemplation of the Infinite but not to become the Infinite. You have the happiness of contemplating the Infinite but you cannot become the Infinite and do what the Infinite can do. This is a peculiar aphorism in the Brahma Sutra.But dvaitian vaishnawas constantly claims that you can not become bramhan.

    If you cannot become infinite bramhan , you will be finite again; if you are finite, then you have to return, having not attained moksha.


    Edited : This is from my #18 post

    I think krishna has already told his real abode in bhagavad gita (8.21) .

    From the Unmanifest all manifestations emerge at the coming of Brahma’s Day; at the falling of Night they dissolve in that Self-same thing called the Unmanifest. (BG 8.18)

    And this multitude of beings comes into being again and again, and dissolves helplessly, O Partha, at the coming of the Night, it is born again at the advent of the Day.(8.19)


    But higher than this Unmanifest, there is another being,Unmanifest and eternal, which, when all beings perish, does not perish. (BG 8.20)


    " avyaktokshar......tat dhama paramam mam "

    it is called the (akshara)eternal (avyakta)Unmanifest; they speak of it as the highest goal. After reaching it, they do not return; that is My Supreme abode.

    conclusions :
    1) krishna never mentioned vaikuntha word.

    2) From 8.18 and 8.19 ,it is cleared that there are two unmanifests .One is when jiva merges during bramha's night ,which is called as 'temporary avyakta' and the other is 'akshar avyakta'which is beyond avyakta .

    3) That supreme place is known as "akshar" ( imperishable and eternal ) and "avyakta" ( avyaya-formless-unmanifested) .

    4) It is more than impossible to call vaikuntha as " avyakta place " .or " place which is beyond form and formless ." Scriptures simply call that place as 'aroopa' and formless to negate form .


    Why it is called as "akshar" ?
    If we call it Unmanifest, we do not praise it properly; because it cannot be comprehended by the mind of the intellect. Even if it assumes form, it does not lose its formless nature. And with the disappearance of its form, its eternity is not affected It is, therefore, called the Imperishable, known as eternally present.


    Vaikuntha is supreme only in terms of eternal lokas. As vaikuntha can not be a " avyakta place " , it is not the highest place of vishnu . But it is generally considered as supreme by vishnu devotees who are entangled in forms .

    In this way krishna opens the secret of his nature ,which is known as atmaroopa.

    HARI OM HARI HARI HARI







    Dhanyavad , RAM KRISHNA HARI
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 03 December 2013 at 10:43 AM.
    Hari On!

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    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Namaste

    Isn't the Bhagavad Gita part of the Mahabharata? What about this?

    Mahabharata of Krishna-Dwaipayana Vyasa Book 12 Santi Parva Section CCCXLIII

    "I till the Earth, assuming the form of a large plough-share of black iron. And because my complexion is black, therefore am I called by the name of Krishna. I have united the Earth with Water, Space with Mind, and Wind with Light. Therefore am I called Vaikuntha."

    or these other Vaishnav scripture?

    Srimad Bhagavatam 9.4.18-20:

    sa vai manah krishna-padaravindayor
    vacamsi vaikuntha-gunanuvarnane
    karau harer mandira-marjanadishu
    srutim cakaracyuta-sat-kathodaye
    mukunda-lingalaya-darsane drisau
    tad-bhritya-gatra-sparse 'nga-sangamam
    ghranam ca tat-pada-saroja-saurabhe
    srimat-tulasya rasanam tad-arpite
    padau hareh kshetra-padanusarpane
    siro hrishikesa-padabhivandane
    kamam ca dasye na tu kama-kamyaya
    yathottamasloka-janasraya ratih

    Sri Caitanya Charitamrita Madhya 21.3:

    sarva svarupera dhama -- paravyoma-dhame
    prithak prithak Vaikuntha saba, nahika ganane

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Namaste,

    Lord Krishna describes His eternal abode to be the destination for liberated jivas in Bhagavad Gita. In Chapter 8, He describes all worlds starting with the abode of Lord Brahma to be subject to return but leaves of Sri Vaikuntha. Then He declares His abode to be the eternal abode as - "tad dhAma paramam mama" - that abode of Mine is eternal. And in 2nd chapter He says that there was never a point that we (individual souls) were not there and there will never be a point when we will cease to be.

    In the Upanishads is mentioned a separate path taken by the liberated soul to the abode. Vedanta Sutras too end confirming that the liberated jiva can be with or without form and also he gets all powers except being Jagat Karana, thus refuting absolute oneness. Connecting all the dots and from all Puranas from Bhagavatam to Shiva Purana, we can understand that His dhAm is called Sri Vaikuntha.

    Therefore in places where it seems advaitic like Him identifying with His abode (as in identifying with yagna, kratu etc) or us entering Him has to be interpretted in the right way such that above is not contradicted.

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    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    Isn't the Bhagavad Gita part of the Mahabharata? What about this?

    Mahabharata of Krishna-Dwaipayana Vyasa Book 12 Santi Parva Section CCCXLIII

    "I till the Earth, assuming the form of a large plough-share of black iron. And because my complexion is black, therefore am I called by the name of Krishna. I have united the Earth with Water, Space with Mind, and Wind with Light. Therefore am I called Vaikuntha."

    or these other Vaishnav scripture?

    Srimad Bhagavatam 9.4.18-20:

    sa vai manah krishna-padaravindayor
    vacamsi vaikuntha-gunanuvarnane
    ...

    Sri Caitanya Charitamrita Madhya 21.3:

    sarva svarupera dhama -- paravyoma-dhame
    prithak prithak Vaikuntha saba, nahika ganane
    Quotations that you gave from Mahabharata and Bhagavatam mean that "Vaikuntha" is just one of the Lord's names. Just like He can be called Vishnu, Rama, Krishna, etc, so He is also known as Vaikuntha.
    But that was not hinduism♥krishna's question. His question was about the abode of the Lord which is called Vaikuntha.
    In the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna does not mention his abode under the name Vaikuntha, but just as "abode". See verses 8.28 and 8.21 (http://vedabase.net/bg/8/en).

    Vaikuntha as the spiritual world or Lord's abode is explicitly mentioned in the Puranas. See for example Bhāgavatam 3.15.13 (http://vedabase.net/sb/3/15/13/) where Lord Vishnu is called Vaikuntha (vaikuṇṭhasya) and His abode is also called Vaikuntha (vaikuṇṭha-nilayam). In fact the spiritual world is called Vaikuntha which means "free from all anxieties". Srila Prabhupada explained it in the purport to verse 3.15.13. In the spiritual world of Vaikuntha there are no sufferings from birth, death, old age and diseases, misfortune etc. and therefore nobody is anxious there. That is the meaning of the word "Vaikuntha" when referring to the world called "Vaikuntha" or the Lord's abode.

    Attain liberation in Vaikuntha is final and ultimate. There is no type of liberation higher than that. Goloka as the world of Radha and Krishna, the gopis, their friends, cows, etc. is said to be the highest place in Vaikuntha.

    regards

  5. #5

    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Dear Friend,

    The question put forward by you is a very interesting one and the answer can be deduced using certain examples....

    The term "Vaikunta" is very frequently used in many of the Puranas and especially in Srimad Bhagavatam and Vishnu Purana...

    When one very carefully studies Bhagavad Gita, Sri Krishna stresses at many places that one has to attain Him ultimately....

    Sri Vaasudeva very beautifully says in Bhagavad Gita 8.15

    mam upetya punar janma
    duhkhalayam asasvatam
    napnuvanti mahatmanah
    samsiddhim paramam gatah


    [very rough translation]
    Mahaatmanah gataah paramaam samsiddhim
    The great souls, after achieving the supreme most siddhi or or spiritual perfection [in this context]

    upetya maam
    they completely surrender and approach Me

    ashaashvata janma dukhalayam napunuvanti
    such Mahaatmas will never obtain the ashaashvata[temporary] janma or birth in the dukhaalayam..this materialistic universe that is filled with misery....

    Its very clear that, Sri Vaasudeva says those who obtain Him will never come back...

    Now...lets get "back" to the term Vaikunta....Vaikunta according to the Puranas is described as the abode of Sri Hari...its that planetary system where Sri Maha Vishnu resides with Sri Maha Lashmi...

    So, the question now...is Vaikunta that Supreme most place from where one never comes back?

    Lets deduce some information from the Puranas....
    Lets consider the story of the famous "Jaya" and "Vijaya"
    ...they were the dwarapalakas or the Main Entrance guards at the Vaikunta...The point one must note is those two souls were already in Vaikunta...which means they had reached it already...when Sanaka , Sanatana, Sanananda and Sanatkumara [the four manas putras of chaturmukha Bramha] went to Vaikunta to have a darshana of Sri Maha Vishnu, the rajasa guna and the tamasa guna which was still existing in Jaya and Vijaya, made them stop those four kumaras and insult them... what happened later is something we all know...Jaya and Vijaya were cursed by the kumaras to go back those planets where people with these gunas live...lets stop here and analyse...Jaya and Vijaya who were in Vaikunta came back to lower planets...

    But Sri Vaasudeva says those who reach Him will never come back....

    Now there are two things one must very carefully understand....going to Vaikunta is one thing...attaining Paramaatma is another thing....
    going to Vaikunta is like after putting a lot of effort, going to the location of a temple...attaining Paramaathma is like having the darshan of the main deity .....even after going to a temple, one must enter the garbha-gudi [sanctum sanctorum] and only then can one see the Deity there...but then its another point that one need not even go to a temple and still be immersed in Him within the mind....[ie not go to Vaikunta but still attain Him]

    The next question that immediately arises is that "What is Vaikunta then"?

    Sri Maha Vishnu is referred to as the "Parabhramha Swaroopa"...which means He is Parabramhas' roopa or very roughly.. a comprehend-able form...
    Parabramha, cannot be comprehended by us because we have very limited intellect...and because of this when one wishes to understand and comprehend Parabramha inside this Materialistic Universe, there is a need for a comprehend-able form..and this is Sri Maha Vishnu...now Sri Maha Vishnu is ofcourse the comprehend-able form or swaroopa of Parabramha inside the Universe and hence although in reality He is located in each and every atom in this Universe, only for the sake of His devotees He is also present in Vaikunta...making it His abode...but then He who is the Karunamayi..[the most merciful one] does not stay only in Vaikunta...He takes birth in a prison to make His devotees happy[Devaki and Vasudeva]...He grows and plays in cow sheds to make His devotees happy[the friends and gopis in Brindavana ]...He visits forests with His devotees to make them happy....[Hanumaan, Shabari, etc...]...He goes to war-field to help His devotees[Arjuna and Pandavas]...He is everywhere....

    The main point on which Sri Vaasudeva stresses everywhere is that to reach Him...only because attaining Him is the supreme most solution...He does not ask His devotees to go to Vaikunta only because even in Vaikunta there is a possibility that one might come back...but then when one attains Sri Maha Vishnu, one need not worry about anything else...what Sri Krishna time and again talks about is attaining Him ...not reaching a particular destination......and that, my friend, is the reason why Sri Krishna never talks specifically about Vaikunta

    [Of course there are some contradicting statements in the Puranas which adds more ambiguity...but if you are interested we can discuss that later....]

  6. #6

    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    I thought Vaikuntha was Sri Vishnu's planets name where he recides.

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    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    When shri krishna says you should attain me .it doesn't mean that you should attain vaikuntha.It only means one should attain shri krishna's soul ,which is often called as bramhan . In uddhava gita,Krishna himself describes how jiva merges in atman .

    HARE KRISHNA
    Hari On!

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    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Namaste,

    My study in Vaishnav Philosophy is very very limited. Out of curiosity, I just checked translations by VAishnava Acharya-s of BG 2.51, 8.11, 15.4, 15.5, 18.56, which contains the word 'padam' and the famous 9.25 (anya devata verse)

    Surprisingly, I did not find that any acharya used to word 'Vaikuntha' or tried to explain Pada here means 'Vaikuntha', nor did they quote BhAgavat Purana.

    In BG 8.11,

    Sri RAmAnuja explains us the meaning of 'pada' as, 'What is attained by the mind as its goal is called 'pada''
    Sri MAdhavA explains us the meaning of 'pada' as, 'Since the aspirants attain that consciousness it is known as pada.m' and quotes Narada Bhakti Sutra which says the same.

    More surprisingly, in 9.25, acharya-s focused on saying like Vishnu is param or only and only Vishnu / Krishna has to be worshipped. They did not add that Shiva should not be worshipped.

    One may say that it automatically implies that anya-devata includes everyone except Krishna. But there is a difference.

    When I say - Speak the truth

    I am speaking positively

    When I say - Speak the truth and do not speak lie

    There is both positive and negative upadesha. There is tight logic where there is no escape window.

    I think they adopted a nahi ninda nyaya.

    It's just Krishna Krishna Krishna and nothing else. Mind does not think of anything else. Shiva automatically drops as one can surrender to only one form of God.

    Hanuman only chanted RAma Nama and not Krishna NAma. When Krishna appeared, he requested Bhagavan to give darshan as Rama

    Meera Bai chanted only Krishna's name. She would not chant RAma Nama nor Narasimh nAma

    Though all avatars of Vishnu are one and the same, mind can concentrate on only one form.

    EDIT: I think this is one of the reason why we have different sahasranama's for Vishnu, Rama, Krishna, Laxmi-Narsimha and stotra-s dedicated to each form of God. Though you can technically say all forms of Vishnu are one and same, still they have distinctive personality.

    Rama would not do that Krishna did, he would not play flute, nor would play politics (which was necessary and not against dharma), etc. Rama would not do what Parashurama did nor did Rama lived like and Avadhoot.


    Acharya-s had opportunity and they were much intelligent than us. If we can connect, they too could have connected padam with Vaikuntha.

    They also had chance to call Shiva ans 'Jiva' or as Demi-God, but they chose to remain silent.

    Gita is more popular and widely read then Upanishads and laymen generally do not read Brahma Sutras.

    Can anybody clarify please.

    Om Namo NArAyaNAya
    Last edited by Amrut; 22 November 2013 at 10:15 AM. Reason: added info after EDIT
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Please consider the wisdom of Srila Prabhupada's explanation in the Purport to this sloka:
    yatredyante katha mrishtas
    trishnayah prasamo yatah
    nirvairam yatra bhuteshu
    nodvego yatra kascana


    SYNONYMS
    yatra -- where; idyante -- are worshiped or discussed; kathah -- words; mrishtah -- pure; trishnayah -- of material hankerings; prasamah -- satisfaction; yatah -- by which; nirvairam -- nonenviousness; yatra -- where; bhuteshu -- among living entities; na -- not; udvegah -- fear; yatra -- where; kascana -- any.


    TRANSLATION
    Whenever pure topics of the transcendental world are discussed, the members of the audience forget all kinds of material hankerings, at least for the time being. Not only that, but they are no longer envious of one another, nor do they suffer from anxiety or fear.


    PURPORT
    Vaikuntha means "without anxiety," and the material world means full of anxiety. As stated by Prahlada Maharaja: sada samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahat. The living entities who have accepted this material world as a residence are full of anxiety. A place immediately becomes Vaikuntha whenever the holy topics of the Personality of Godhead are discussed by pure devotees. This is the process of sravanam kirtanam vishnoh [SB 7.5.23], chanting and hearing about the Supreme Lord Vishnu. As the Supreme Lord Himself confirms:
    naham tishthami vaikunthe
    yoginam hridayeshu va
    tatra tishthami narada
    yatra gayanti mad-bhaktah
    "My dear Narada, actually I do not reside in My abode, Vaikuntha, nor do I reside within the hearts of the yogis, but I reside in that place where My pure devotees chant My holy name and discuss My form, pastimes and qualities." Because of the presence of the Lord in the form of the transcendental vibration, the Vaikuntha atmosphere is evoked. This atmosphere is without fear and anxiety. One living entity does not fear another. By hearing the holy names and glories of the Lord, a person executes pious activities. Srinvatam sva-kathah krishnah punya-sravana-kirtanah (Bhag. 1.2.17). Thus his material hankerings immediately stop. This sankirtana movement started by the Society for Krishna Consciousness is meant for creating Vaikuntha, the transcendental world that is without anxiety, even in this material world. The method is the propagation of the sravanam kirtanam process throughout the world. In the material world everyone is envious of his fellow man. Animalistic envy exists in human society as long as there is no performance of sankirtana-yajna, the chanting of the holy names -- Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. The Pracetas therefore decided to remain always in the society of devotees, and they considered that to be the highest benediction possible in human life."

    http://vedabase.net/sb/4/30/35/en1
    uttama hañā vaiṣṇava habe nirabhimāna
    jīve sammāna dibe jāni' 'kṛṣṇa'-adhiṣṭhāna

    "Although a Vaiṣṇava is a most exalted person, he is prideless and gives
    all respect to everyone, knowing everyone to be the resting place of Kṛṣṇa."
    -Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 20.25

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    Re: Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word

    Namaste Indiaspirituality Amrut
    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post
    My study in Vaishnav Philosophy is very very limited. Out of curiosity, I just checked translations by VAishnava Acharya-s of BG 2.51, 8.11, 15.4, 15.5, 18.56, which contains the word 'padam' and the famous 9.25 (anya devata verse)

    Surprisingly, I did not find that any acharya used to word 'Vaikuntha' or tried to explain Pada here means 'Vaikuntha', nor did they quote BhAgavat Purana.
    ...
    Acharya-s had opportunity and they were much intelligent than us. If we can connect, they too could have connected padam with Vaikuntha.
    In the Bhagavad gita Lord Krishna does not mention his abode under the name Vaikuntha, but just as "abode". In the Bhagavad gita there are several Sanskrit terms that are used as an "abode".
    See for example verse 8.28 (http://vedabase.net/bg/8/28/en) where the word sthānam is used. In verse 8.21 (http://vedabase.net/bg/8/21/en) and verse 15.6 (http://vedabase.net/bg/15/6/en) the word dhāma is used.
    What is interesting to note is that the verses of Bhagavad gita 8.21 and Katha Upanishad 1.3.8-9 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe15/sbe15012.htm) are very similar:

    "That which the Vedāntists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns — that is My supreme abode." (Bhagavad-gītā 8.21)

    'But he who has understanding, who is mindful and always pure, reaches indeed that place, from whence he is not born again.' (Katha Upanishad 1.3.8)

    'But he who has understanding for his charioteer, and who holds the reins of the mind, he reaches the end of his journey, and that is the highest place of Vishnu.' (Katha Upanishad 1.3.9)

    The only difference between them is that word dhāma is used in Bhagavad-gītā 8.21, whereas in Katha Upanishad 1.3.9 word padam is used in the sense of "place, abode". Those two words dhāma and padam are synonymous and mean the same thing "abode".

    In the Bhagavad gita 18.56 (http://vedabase.net/bg/18/56/en) word padam is used: śāśvataḿ padam avyayam. In Gaudiya vaishnava sampradaya Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur commented on this verse:

    "... bhakta attains my eternal dhamas (padam), such as Vaikuntha, Mathura, Dvaraka, and Ayodhya"

    Here Visvanatha Cakravarti took the word dhāma to mean padam, and he says that it refers to Vaikuntha and some places in the Vaikuntha such as Mathura, Dvaraka, and Ayodhya. According to this view places such as Mathura, Dvaraka, and Ayodhya are not only the material places on the earth, but they also exist in the spiritual world of Vaikuntha as an eternal abodes of the Lord Krishna, Narayana and Rama.

    regards

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