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Thread: Before samsara

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    Before samsara

    Hello, ¿What is the original place/state of a jiva before faling to the material world? ¿Is there an "official position" in ISKCON?
    Some say It's Vaikuntha/Goloka, others Brahmajyoti and I have even read a swami initiated by Prabhupada who says that we've been in samsara without beginning.

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    Re: Before samsara

    Namaste

    The "official position" in ISKCON on this issue is this:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...028#post103028

    If you're interested here I have provided some quotations from the books of Srila Prabhupada where he says that we were originally in the spiritual world, Vaikuntha:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...447#post107447

    regards

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    Light Re: Before samsara

    Namaste,

    There's no fall of jiva from spiritual world vaikuntha ! It's not a sanatana dharma concept. No any Hindu scripture will support this. But some 300-400 years old semi-vedic sects believe this under the name of sanatana dharma.

    We are in sansara without beginning, is a non-accepted concept at the level of supreme knowledge of Upanishads . If we consider ourself in biginingless sansara, there wouldn't have been moksha at any time. Soul is itself beyond time and space. So we can't say at specific time it got overwhelmed in sansara or he is in sansara from beginningless time.


    According to Upanishad's pov, there is no such thing as bondage or liberation ! All are mind's game , illusion. Soul is beyond bondage and liberation. He is aloof from everything though he appears in a body just as sky, which is everywhere but is separate from everything. Soul can't be touched by maya ! Only mind is running by mind itself. Atma (soul) doesn't suffer anything, he is only the witnesser of three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep. He is beyond omkara, imperishable, infinite bramhan.

    Generally the mind has natural liking for sense objects and repetition of enjoyment creates attachment and when the mind gets involved there, it never withdraws itself. When the intellect thinks about these objects and the mind repeatedly meditates on sense enjoyments it begins to hanker for them and the consciousness becomes proud of these possessions.

    When that pride is more powerful both the physical and subtle bodies are bound with objects, which bondage is very troublesome and difficult to get rid of, for the Jeeva.

    Then the Jeeva thinks that all that the body suffers is his own suffering. He says – “I am blind, I am lame, I am having skin disease, I am beautiful, and I am the man of knowledge.”

    He thinks that he is the body, and foolishly forgets his own original existence as Atman. This false bondage is considered to be real by the Jeeva. This is only because he completely see himself identified with mind . The fact is that he is always different from mind. He thinks illusion is a real thing and just imagines the body suffer as a real thing.


    Dhanyavad,jai Shri Krishna rukmini !
    Hari On!

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    Re: Before samsara

    Why would the all powerful, all knowing Atman then allow such illusion or untruth as Truth or real? Mind cannot project itself to Atman but as per your long saying, its Atman which is allowing this illusion on to Its Self by itself! The driving force and whats driven is the very same Atman then, there is no release for that Atman once it is under illusion because the Atman is anyways under illusion! Whatever you do under this illusion, is then Illusion or unreal that includes even the post you write here.

    Vaishnavaism model is that, Jiva is always the knower ( in fact, its the position of Vedanta too) and it is the actor as well so that it reaps the benefits of its Karma (action that includes mere breathing) be it materialistic or spiritual. When it acts to please the mind, it gets more and more bondage towards the matter and when the action is for the appeasement and pleasure of the Lord, it gets "attached" to the Lord!

    Samsara starts for the Jiva because of the PrapdaKarma and the cause of that is Anadi! Since that karma is Anadi, the Samsara is the gift of that Anadi karma to cleanse and get cleansed by the Grace of Lord ( PrabdaKarma can be removed only by the Love and grace of Lord) and thus such samsara is also Anadi. ( Anadi - As much as it means 'untraceable" or unknown - not that starting from Vaikunta or any spiritual planets - We stop our curiosity here and there is no more 'fall', "creation" or "over imagination" and/or "projecting" image on real etc - This is the concept and philosophy accepted by Vaishnava schools and most vedanta school's understanding). A lot of us who wanted certain beginning and release for the Samsara Jiva ( baddaJiva) forced this unfortunate discussion and no matter what theory you give or philosophy, that may not satisfy our ever curious mind which is fixated on boundaries.

    Jiva has no other space to live other than Lord's and there is no substance/space separation from Jiva and Lord or even Jada! This is the foundation of Shri Ramanuja's Sareera/Sareeri model where the Jiva/Jada is part and parcel of the Lord and ever inseparable and Gaudiya Vaishnavaism does borrow this idea completely ( added the Acintya beed to the concept for adding clarity to some of the confusing/misleading parts - infact expounded by the Shri Vaishnavaism alwars already as Prema Bhakthi). So, when the Jiva and Iswara are comparable to Body and Body parts, there is no real separation ever and the separation is only in the form of Karma and Karma Pala. Jiva once embodied by the Karma Pala due to its own Karma, as it is acting on its own (SvaKriya or svaDharma - freedom of Jiva to act on its own is accepted by Vaishnava schools) it accumulates more Karma or Punya and even for such actions, it drives the Shakthi from Lord only and that too by His grace and love for the Jiva! Its not the Mind which is projecting something on the Jiva but it is the very Jiva which is acting through the mind and turned away from the Lord Who is ever sweet, blissful and all loving etc. Those actions that are taken by the Jiva, turned away from the Lord, still with in the realm of Lord only ( since there is no other realms), the jiva accumulates other forms of Karma as well. Jiva never would have lived in the spiritual planet like Vaikunta to begin the Karma that will bind the jiva to samsara since living in such spiritual planet is the status of Mukthi or liberation! Being in the Nabi of Lord during PRalaya does not mean the Jiva is in Vaikunta or in liberated state and even during/after Pralaya until Srsti happens, Jiva is unconscious and inanimate to earn any Karma or Karma Pala of Samsara and the roots of such Prabda is not traceable! ISKCON position is very Odd and unique and also there is no single unified position!

    The qualification of Jiva to live in Vaikunta is "Mukthi" and/or ( NityaSoori, Ever Liberated - not fully accepted across vaishnava lines though) and such Mukta or NityaMuktas never fall as they are already fully realized. Bhakta Narada is always in Mukthi and wanders around both Spritual and material worlds with out getting touched by the Karma or Samsara! He lives in Vaikunta and he is not denoted as "Fallen" when he wanders at his will to Booloka or planet earth. He is Nitya Mukta! But, what about Jaya/Vijaya? They were "Fallen" from Vaikunta because of the curse and also due to the WILL of Lord!

    So, as Shri Prapupad said, instead of spending our time trying to trace the "roots" of where we came from which is untraceable, it is wise and fruitful as we know where to go from here! We, in the Samsara does not require another evidence or witness for our status and our Gurus, out of their compassion has shown us where to go from here for everlasting happiness! Lets just turn our focus towards the destination and we know for sure we are in the middle of our journey!

    Hare Krshna!

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    Smile Re: Before samsara

    Namaste, grames.

    What you have written is not found in any Upanishad nor in gita or bhagavat purana . Considering jiva in bondage is due to satva guna. It's not a concept in supreme knowledge which is beyond tri guna .

    Lord krishna himself is against vaishnawa philosophy. Vaishnawa consider jiva in bondage, while shri krishna says atma is everfree, all pervading, beyong gunas and beyond liberation or bondage. After realisation, jiva merges in my swaroopa or atma and only I remain as all pervading bramh.

    jiva is under bondage , is a false concept . Lord Krishna completely denies bondage of jiva in 11th skndha of bhagavat purana. He says bondage of jiva or liberation of jiva are both false. Both are illusion .Atma is only a witnesser. He doesn't suffer anything. Only mind is the cause of illusion. If a king dreams as a beggar, does he really become beggar or it is just an appearance ?

    Why would the all powerful, all knowing Atman then allow such illusion or untruth as Truth or real?

    The same question , uddhava asks to shri krishna in uddhava gita, where paramatma krishna beautifully explains how jiva has no bondage or liberation and how he merges in me ? And yes, there shri krishna didn't mention any loka or vaikintha . Moksha is that which can't be described ,it's unimaginable, beyond all dualities including duality of bhagavan and devotee also. Vedic sages call it as bramhan or Union of atma and paramatma. Shri Krishna talks there about supreme liberation sayujyata with himself ! He has no intention to prove vaikuntha as supreme moksha!


    Dhanyavad .!
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 19 October 2013 at 09:58 PM.
    Hari On!

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    Re: Before samsara

    Namaste

    Grames reminded us of something that immediately connected with, not only my own sensibilities and perchance of adventures in Hinduism, but a common theme and encounter with other Hindus who like me have an attraction and interest in the histories (and histories to come) of the Devas, Devi, saints, munis, heroes and mystics - and that is the many examples of those Who wander about and appear in many places, many locations, sometimes even in two places at once, places which some consider good or bad, some consider nice or mean, some places clean or dirty, some places old or new, spiritual or physical, yet just because they are in a location does not mean their condition of the soul or their state of "liberation" is the equivalent of the location they happen to be at that moment.

    Where they are and Who they are, are not necessarily the same. Grames reminded us that Narada wanders about here and there both spiritual and material, but Who he is that is not the same as Where he is, so Narada is said to be in Mukthi, and is always in Mukthi and not touched by the wheel of birth and death, not touched by many things.

    Narada is just one of so many examples found in the Histories, and in what is to come.

    Yes, I understand that Gaudiyas hold that Vrindavan is a spiritual realm, yet also I know a place in India called Vrindavan and I have been there a couple of times. To some this place, like Kashi, appears to their eyes or senses as material, but to devotional in soul it is seeing a spiritual place with special eyes or a third eye or an experience of the soul noticing things about one and noticing even other souls.

    So karma is what you do or what is an event both good or bad that can have either good or bad result, it can wait or be immediate in result, but in some rare cases even for some the result never comes. That means, One who is not "touched by karma" when the result does not come.

    So I think, just because one is in a location does not mean karma has resulted or come to fruit. Narada is an example. Where you are is not at all the same as What you are.

    Also, when you are in a place, something could be situational. For example, there could be the plague there. Many bodies are dead or soon dead. There may be a spiritual plague for some, but your soul does not have the physical plague. Yet, some allow a situation to effect their consciousness. Consciousness is a state of "mind", but the soul still is pure from the physical plague. So the consciousness may change, it may have fear. That is a state which is temporary, even if it lasts for a long time, fear is a state of "mind", but only the body gets the physical plague and not the soul. Fear as a state or consciousness can, however, take on a "life" of its own. Your fear can absolutely travel outside of your own sphere and suffocate others. There is karma as a result, even for such subtle injury to others. But for someone as Narada, there is no karma. Whatever fear there is due to some situation, that fear which has taken a life of its own, it was not him who did it. It was another one.

    Some say earth is hell. But really, it is just a location, yes? Narada is still one with his Lord, even when on earth. Those who are going to be like Narada, while they many not be "untouched", yet they often first go into a state of feeling extreme separation from their Lord. So some say, this is also a union, but not surprising considering it is a state of consciousness. This feeling of separation, which is also a union, can take on a life of its own, just like fear, but the result is very different. Like fear, others can feel it. It can completely change the situation around them, and change them too. It seems your bhakti can absolutely travel outside of your own sphere and can cause others to feel it, but instead of suffocating it breathes, yes?

    Now there are surely good results coming for such a bhakta, even if they don't care about results anymore.

    Grames perhaps will object to this question I have, yet let me ask:

    Is there a door to Vrindavan that says you cannot come into that place if you are a demon? As a location, perhaps you can. But as a consciousness, perhaps you cannot. Then I wonder, is there a door to Vaikuntha that says you cannot come in if you are a demon? As a location, perhaps you can. But as a consciousness, perhaps you might not?

    Do you fall from Vaikuntha like you fall from a cliff? What is falling? Is it a movement, from one location to another, or is the consciousness taking a different state? Just curious about this. Narada is real.

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: Before samsara

    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    Do you fall from Vaikuntha like you fall from a cliff? What is falling? Is it a movement, from one location to another, or is the consciousness taking a different state? Just curious about this. Narada is real.

    Om Namah Sivaya
    Hi, I'm really new in hindu philosophy (have only read the Bhabavad-Gita and some hymns from Rig-Veda).
    If I understand correctly, according to the "Fall from Vaikuntha" theory, no one really falls from Vaikuntha because the spiritual body reamins there. It's only the consciousness that is projected to the material world and takes repeated births in material bodies. That's what I understood from reading some articles, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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    Re: Before samsara

    Namaste

    ... continuing the question, can a demon enter Vaikuntha as a location but perhaps not in consciousness, and "falling"

    Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita "masanam margasirso ham" (of months, I am Margashirsha). The 11th day of the waxing moon of Margashirsha masa is popularly known as Vaikuntha Ekadashi.

    There are several famous and ancient temples that have what is called the Vaikuntha Dwara, a holy door or gateway to the temple which when opened and entered by adherents on Vaikuntha Ekadashi, are granted entrance to Vaikuntha.

    Of course, often these promises do not specify WHEN you are given enterance. This life? The next, or sometime after?

    An example is the Paramapada Vasal the northern gate at the Srirangam Temple where anyone who passes through this Vaikuntha Dwara gate on Vaikuntha Ekadashi is guaranteed entrance to Vaikuntha. That might include a demon. Or even a mouse who circumstantially observed ekadashi, fasting due to a famine of grains for example.

    I have a question for Gaudiyas - whatever happened to Goloka Vrindavan? I was told this is a place or location with its own identity, regardless whether it is a park in Vaikuntha or its own loka, it is distinct and going to Vaikuntha does not necessarily mean you have gone to Goloka Vrindavan.

    As far as leaving Vaikuntha, and returning to it, it is my understanding Jatayu returned to Vaikuntha - that is He was already there, then left, then returned. Yes?

    But it appears according to some that Jatayu didn't want to stay in Vaikuntha, but rather be reborn again. Jatayu apparently previously resolved to be reborn a vulture and continue fighting for dharma on earth. So could it be possible some leave Vaikuntha to be reborn on purpose?

    Om Namah Sivaya

  9. #9

    Re: Before samsara

    Sri Matre Namaha,

    I've been on these forums for over a year and had always deliberately stayed away from commenting on anything related to ISKCON as I do not wish to question someone else's beliefs. But, today I've decided to talk as their bragging has been too much to bare with.


    Can ISKCON quote a Single Vedic text which uses the word 'Krishna' as a Synonym to 'PURUSHA' or 'Brahman'

    Can ISKCON give me a Single Vedic text which talks about 'Go Loka'

    Can ISKCON show me a single Vedic text which does not say that Siva is 'Brahman' or to that matter Krishna alone is Brahman and not anyone else.

    Why did Krishna sing the Siva Sahasranama Stotra in the Anusasanika parva of Mahabharata lauding it as the essence of all the scriptures.

    I have a dozen more questions to counter their baseless arguments. They could do nothing in this country to prove their point and could do nothing to make their presence felt in West Bengal which is the birth place of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu but went to the West and started propagating their cult with all it's Superstitions.

    I shall tell you how they propagate their belief. I used to frequent the temple of Sai baba of Shirdi located in Cambridge layout in Bangalore. Every Thursday, agents of ISKCON used to camp there selling their books and CDs. As usual, I went there on a Thursday and found them selling their books and other religious stuff. I liked their calenders with lord Venkateshwara and lord Narasimha Deva as portrayed in their Bangalore ISKCON temple. I went to their stall and was looking at the Calenders and other books. That agent spoke to me very nicely and showed me various books and asked me to buy some.I told him that I only want to buy those Calenders as I liked them, assuming them to be put on for sale. But that agent told me that those are not for sale and are freebies along with their 'Bhagavat Geeetha as it is' and 'sri Krishna' ( or something related to their publication on Krishna ). I really liked those pictures and only for the sake of the pictures, I paid him and bought those 2 books along with the pictures. Back home, I kept the books in my cupboard and placed the 2 calenders on the wall in my living room and day in and day out I adore the lord in the 2 pictures. after about a month, along with a friend of mine, just for sight seeing, I went to the Bangalore ISKCON temple. There I was looking at the many stalls selling Tulsi Malas, Sweets and Savories, Clothes, idols and the pictures of Krishna and noticed the calenders that were given to me as freebies were actually being sold at Rs 25 each and there is no need to buy the books in order to get those calenders. I inquired with the temple shopkeepers and realized that I was taken for a ride by the agent of ISKCON only to sell his books. This is how cheap they can get to propagate their beliefs and this is what they mean by Krishna Consciousness. Even some of my friends had similar experiences with them and found them to be extremely brain washing to subscribe into their beliefs and doctrine of ISKCON. They are nothing different from any other Christian Missionaries and truly speaking, I find them demeaning and belittling Bhagavan Sri Krishna portraying Him as a mere Sectarian.

    However, I would like to make myself clear that I accept and adore Sri Krishna and the saying Krishnastu Bhagavan Swayam. and that I only differ with ISKCON and would always love Sri Krishna for He is the Purna Brahma.

    Regards,
    Rameeshh
    Sivoham

    That, which is the cause for the entire Cosmos to be as it is, is Mahamaya the divine player.

    Rameeshh

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    Smile Re: Before samsara

    Quote Originally Posted by kriyaramesha
    the saying Krishnastu Bhagavan Swayam.
    Namaste ,

    In bhagavat purana , It is written Krishnastu bhagavan swayam .This doesn't mean krishna is not the avatar. It is used because Krishna is the eighth poorna avatar of maha vishnu or poorna bramhavatar.So he is identified as bhagavan . Because , In the same BP, at the end, It is written that Krishna is the avatara of mahavishnu.

    It's great that you have picked differences between Iskcon and sanatana vedik dharma.

    Dhanyavad ! Jai shrimati rukmini krushn !
    Hari On!

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