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Thread: Who Attains Moksha?

  1. #1

    Who Attains Moksha?

    Pranam-s,

    Disclaimer: I was unable to find a thread with this topic, hence I am creating this one here. If there is a thread that has already answered the questions I am about to ask, please let me know as soon as possible so I can message Satay-ji in order to ask him to delete this current thread so it does not become redundant and so it does not take up forum space.
    - - - - - -
    Is Moksha applicable to non-Hindus, etc. etc. etc.?

    Shruti* clearly says that consumers of cow-flesh, regardless of racial and social background, do not attain "moksha"/"amrita-s" (immortality).

    Shruti also clearly says that those who do not offer the proper (Vrata) prayers and sacrifices and oblations, do not attain "moksha"/"amrita-s" (immortality).

    So, how is "moksha" described in the non-Shrutic scriptures of Hindu Dharma?

    How do the Shaivas, Vaishnavas, Shaktas, and other sects see "moksha"?

    Can the most morally just, socially valorous, etc. etc. etc. person attain "moksha" even if that person eats cow-flesh?

    Of Paramount Importance: Please utilize scripture in order to give foundation to your argument/thoughts/opinions and discussion.

    Bonus Question for Vaishnavites: Shri Krishna says that anyone can approach him with any type of devotional method (be it on a "leaf", "yajna", etc.). But, what about someone that approaches Him even though that person is a eater of cow-flesh? How do eaters of cow-flesh attain "moksha" if they approach an almighty God like Shri Krishna who Himself was a cow-herd during his youth (as per Līlā)?

    *By Shruti, I literally mean: Rig, Sama, Yajur, and Atharva. Nothing more, nothing less.

  2. #2
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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté



    Let me if I may offer this point of view...

    We are humans and most live in the objective world. Within this world of things we acquire, store , gather, collect and inventory things. Yet when it comes to the notion of mokṣa the term ~acquire~ (prāpta) may feel right, but it is a bit off-the-mark.

    Now, why do I mention this? Well begun is half done. One key quality in advancing the notion of mokṣa is the comprehension of what it is and what it is not. Perhaps we can talk a bit of this, if this string supports the idea and there is an eagerness to 'get it'.

    So, that said the notion of acquisition (prāpta) is just a bit off-the-mark. How so? If something is acquired then it is objectively possessed and is transactional. That is, it has a beginning and an end. Mokṣa is that of ātma-vidya , the re-recognition of one's true Self, of Being.
    It has never left , it is here, and permeates every fiber of every thing. It has no beginning and no end. So there is no-thing to acquire.

    Even the notion of 'being on the path' is often used by the seeker (anveṣaka¹). But how can there be a path if the beginning and the end are in the same place ? This is the pickle. We are none other then that, the Self. You cannot go even for one second not being the Self.

    If this Self (ātman) was outside of you, at some destination, then perhaps a map could be made that would guide one to its acquisition - then it could be obtained, gathered, collected. But this is not the case.

    It is like this... there once was a beautiful lady that wore a string of pears about her neck. She is so busy with daily life she forgets these pearls and thinks they have been lost. She scurries here and there looking for the necklace. She asks her friend have you seen my precious necklace ?
    Her friend points to the woman's neck and says look here, feel here. To the woman's surprise she says ' oh, I have found my necklace, what joy '. Now, did she ~find~ her necklace ? was it really ever missing ? It is this feeling that something has been found that suggests we have obtained a lost item, but we know this is not the case.

    This is the pickle of mokṣa. We are never really missing our own Self ... tell me one time ( even in the deepest sleep) you have not been the Self - pure Being, existence itself. We are told in our āgama-s:

    turyātīte bheda ekaḥ
    satatodita ityam || tantrāloka 10.283
    'without break or pause' is satatoditam (satata + udita). This Being, this Fullness and Wholeness does cease, it has no edge or crack. So, this must include every one on this good earth.


    So what needs to be done ? There is a word used - pratyabhijñā = recognition or re-recognition. It is just the notion of recognizing one's Self again. So all the techniques available are not ones for 'attainment' but the removal of the those things that hinder the natural state of Being from being one's full and uncomplicated experience.


    iti śivaṁ

    1. anveṣaka - searching

    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #3

    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Pranam-s,

    Yajvan, so what you are saying is that eaters of cow-flesh (Go-mAtA) are able to acquire "moksha"?

    How do you reconcile that with Shruti? ...

    May the Devas destroy this day the evil-doer; may each hot curse of Agni return and blast him [the evil-doer]. Let [Agni’s] arrows pierce the liar in his vitals, and Vishva’s net enclose the Yatudhana [the consumer of cow-flesh].” (R.V.10.87.15)

    The fiend who smears himself with flesh of cattle, with flesh of horses and of human bodies, [the fiend] who steals the milch-cow’s milk away, O’ Agni, tear off the heads of such [Yatudhana-s] with [your] fiery fury.” (R.V.10.87.16)

    “Let the fiends drink the poison of the cattle [instead]; may Shri Aditi caste off the evil-doers. May the God Savitar give them up to Ruin****!! And, be their share of plants and herbs denied them!” (R.V.10.87.17)

    ****Theologically, this means: May they [the Yatudhana-s] be denied Amrita, the ever-lasting reunion with the Shri Gods, with the Consciousness of the Gods/Deva-s. Shruti clearly denies "moksha" for consumers of cow-flesh. Yatudhana-s = eaters of cow-flesh, regardless of racial and social background.
    Last edited by Sudas Paijavana; 05 November 2013 at 09:18 PM.

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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Sudas ji,

    There are threads containing deliberations on this topic, however it is good to a be a seperate thread.

    I feel we should start with what is moksha and when does it happen ? Once these answers are clear and accepted, the rest can follow easily.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  5. #5

    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Pranam-s, Kallol-ji:

    Do you think humans*** that eat cow-flesh can attain "moksha"?

    If yes, how do you reconcile that with what Shruti has everlastingly declared, as shown by the verses above?

    ***any person of any religious background, including Hindus that eat beef in India (quite a few Hindus in Kerala eat beef) and abroad

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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    A flesh is a flesh - whether it is a cow or any other animal - it does slow down the spiritual growth.

    Because we are primarily agricultural country and highly dependent on cows and ox - we rever them as our alternate mother.

    In Middle East camel holds the same position.

    So if we get to the basics of Hinduism, all living beings need to be respected.

    However said, people might not be in a position sometimes to have vegetables. I was in siberia - research expedition in a snow top Iduki lake. Only meat soups available. I had 2 choices - take that or die of hunger. Same will be in Greenland and some other places where getting vegetables at some time of the year will be difficult.

    Now with this background, should we say that these people are outside the boundary of Sanatana Dharma ? then our dharma is exclusive like the others. This is fortunately not true. Our dharma is all inclusive.

    That means the moksha is there for all. How fast one can achieve that depends on the .......only one factor - state of MIND. Body stays behind - only mind travels to the next body. It is the state of the mind which decides the next body.

    Now if it is depend on mind only then for maintaining the body I can take whatever food is available to me. Depending on the state of my mind, the state of mind can change or remain unchanged. Taking liqour is an example of immediate effect.

    The food - Mind relation is another interesting topic.

    So the fact food can matter or not for altering the state of mind, depends on how close one is to moksha.

    Now what is moksha ?
    Love and best wishes:hug:

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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Consider the historical aspect when we go through the verses. It is in the sruti era - when even the witten text was not there. Forget about tractors and Amul.

    The society was dependent on cows heavily. If no such restrictions was there, human have tendency to kill for food.

    Thus there are many such restrictions which have used the religious garb to protect the eco-system.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  8. #8

    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Pranam-s,

    Quote Originally Posted by kallol View Post
    Now if it is depend on mind only then for maintaining the body I can take whatever food is available to me.
    While I don't agree, I find this point to be interesting. Thank you for sharing, Kallol-ji.

    Quote Originally Posted by kallol View Post
    Consider the historical aspect when we go through the verses.
    In your opinion, does Shruti not apply in this era? Do you believe that the Law of Shruti is time-transcending, trans-Yuga, ever-existing?

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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Dear Sudas ji,

    We need to differentiate between the knowledge and the constitution.

    The knowledge does not change but constitution changes with time.

    The constitution says what is right for society at that point of time and what is not. Knowledge transcends everything and leads to moksha. Again it can only lead but not achieve.

    To overcome this confusion, I am harping again and again on the definition of moksha.

    Food vs mind is an intersting subject. Again just believing will make one like taliban. The knowledge behind it will help one to overcome the hurdles.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  10. #10

    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Pranam-s,

    Quote Originally Posted by kallol View Post
    We need to differentiate between the knowledge and the constitution.

    The knowledge does not change but constitution changes with time.
    I find it important that you brought this up. I think that Dharma changes, but Rta and Satya remain the same.

    To overcome this confusion, I am harping again and again on the definition of moksha.
    I too would like to know what is the true or unchanging definition of moksha, and whether the consumption of cow-flesh hinders the achieving or attaining of moksha. Does it partially hinder attainment? Or, is it a grievous offense?

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