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Thread: Who Attains Moksha?

  1. #21

    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Pranam-s,

    Quote Originally Posted by rama_t View Post
    3. Can he meat..? If he eats meat, then can he get Moksha..? Not possible.
    emphasis mine

    Exceptions:
    There are always exceptions to rules.

    In the coldest places on earth, no vegetation is possible, then how to live..? If you eat meat as exception and as duty that will be forgiven by Lord.
    Will "the Lord" forgive consumption of cow-flesh?

    As per Shruti, consumption of cow-flesh leads to ruin: there is no moksha due to the consumption of cow-flesh; in fact, Lord Agni and Lord Savitā despise consumers of cow-flesh above all else; Lord Agni actively punishes consumers of cow-flesh.

    Why only cow-meat..
    I concentrated on cow-flesh because I wanted to tie back non-Shrutic scriptures with the Shruti Veda-s. Go-mātā is given a primordial position in terms of importance in the Shruti Veda-s, especially in the Rig Veda.

    Can a Hindu that consumes cow-flesh attain moksha?

    Can a non-Hindu that consumes cow-flesh attain moksha?

    "Not possible", correct?

  2. #22

    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Though a deep topic I feel prompted to write a few thoughts

    Moksha is a remembrance of our unity with Brahman - who alone exists. Presently we have forgotten it. Our memory is short. When we come to remember it - we see that the whole universe is the One all pervasive Brahman. Then all our doubts and illusions would disappear.

    Scriptures mention about this state thus:
    Bhidyate hrdayagrandhih Chidyate sarvasamsayaah
    Ksheeyate chasya karmaani Asmin drshte paraavare

    A free translation:
    When He who is beyond all this is seen - all our hrdayagrandhis, ie bonds tying us “to the here and now“ get broken immediately; all our doubts will be removed and all our Karmas will be instantly dissipated.

    At the mundane level - it is a memory related aspect. In the Gita Arjuna the mortal expresses surprise and doubt as to how could Krishna who as perceived in the mortal frame is subject to birth and death could be understood to have instructed Vivaswaan the Sun God. Sri Krishna replies “Both of us have passed through countless lives; you dont remember yours; but I remember all of mine“. Moksha is when the illusion covering our mind and memory is removed and we are able to recollect our essential unity with Brahman.

    The Upanishads mention about the Rishi Vamadeva who attained Brahmajnanam while in the womb. From there he is said to have declared “Aham Manurabhavam Suryascha (I was Manu earlier. I was Surya earlier).
    Last edited by yajvan; 08 November 2013 at 07:27 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    I think in Bhagawath Gita, an entire chapter is dedicated to who will be granted moksha, is it not? I remember reading that bhagwan will grant those souls, who have strived hard for spiritual growth in their past lives, a birth in a spiritual family and ability to realize god through spiritual practices - a birth that guarantees advancement in one's spiritual standing and finally moksha.

    People may eat meat but they may be otherwise good too (including eating of cow flesh which is definitely a sin), for them, they will be made to pay up for their sin and then granted ascension continuing from where they stand.. IMO.

    I have also read somewhere that good people belonging to other faiths are made to be born into Sanathana Dharma whereby, via proper Guru guidance, discipline and resources such as structured ritualistic practices (homas, pujas, stotras, yogic practices...), they will be able to attain moksha eventually.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Vannakkam: As far as I know, a more important pre-requisite in any traditional school is brahmacharya. It is necessary for nirvikalpa samadhi, which leads to moksha.

    Aum Namasivaya

  5. #25

    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    I think in Bhagawath Gita, an entire chapter is dedicated to who will be granted moksha, is it not? I remember reading that bhagwan will grant those souls, who have strived hard for spiritual growth in their past lives, a birth in a spiritual family and ability to realize god through spiritual practices - a birth that guarantees advancement in one's spiritual standing and finally moksha.

    People may eat meat but they may be otherwise good too (including eating of cow flesh which is definitely a sin), for them, they will be made to pay up for their sin and then granted ascension continuing from where they stand.. IMO.

    I have also read somewhere that good people belonging to other faiths are made to be born into Sanathana Dharma whereby, via proper Guru guidance, discipline and resources such as structured ritualistic practices (homas, pujas, stotras, yogic practices...), they will be able to attain moksha eventually.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam: As far as I know, a more important pre-requisite in any traditional school is brahmacharya. It is necessary for nirvikalpa samadhi, which leads to moksha.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Pranam-s, EM and Viraja:

    Thank you both for your valuable responses. Yes, both of you are correct. Apart from not engaging in various foods that would be deemed tamasic, the lifestyle a person may live has a greater impact.

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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Can one inform me which lifetime you are talking about... if it is this life or the next or the one 1,000 years from now. When does the blemish of a fault disperse ( of eating meat) ? If you say that it never disperses then you are suggesting that mokṣa is beyond the realm of the human condition.

    That said, The mahābhārata¹ says Of all the tapas, brahmacarya and ahiṁsā are the greatest tapas. And what then is this tapas aimed at ? The unfoldment of one's full potential. So it must be possible. The mahābhārata and the upaniad-s inform us even the lowest of men (robbers, thieves, etc.) can be lifted up with tapas.

    Now my question - the eating meat thing is really curious. We wish to think that the meat eater is doomed from the mokṣa experience. If this is absolutely true for all time, then one needs to explain śrī nisarga-datta maharāj¹. We find he consumed meat, yet mokṣa blossomed in him. How to explain this ?

    So, I am not an advocate of meat or any other foodstuff that brings harm. But there is a deeper conversation to this notion that we are missing. All the rules and regulations apply to the body, intellect, mind, emotional levels. These feel like you, but are not you. If and as long as you think you are the body and its components, then all these rules apply. Once you are beyond the limits of 'me-ness' of individual existence, then the rules are those of the Supreme and perfect dharma adheres to this person.
    This takes some time to sink in and appreciate. I am not asking any one to hurry on this and 'get it'. It took me years to finally get the comprehension properly aligned. But do not be satisfied with boundaries. Look at these and ask why are they there.

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • mahābhārata - śāntiḥ parvan
    • śrī nisarga-datta maharāj was the student of śrī siddharameśvara maharāj
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Namaste Yajvan ji,
    Thanks for the excellent posts.

    Namaste Sudas ji,

    What do you think of moksha?

    Is it an acquisition ?
    Is it a change of state?
    Is it a discovery of something that you already have?
    Does one experience moksha while alive or after death?

  8. #28

    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Now my question - the eating meat thing is really curious. We wish to think that the meat eater is doomed from the mokṣa experience. If this is absolutely true for all time, then one needs to explain śrī nisarga-datta maharāj. We find he consumed meat, yet mokṣa blossomed in him. How to explain this ?
    Pranam-s,

    Even though the MaharAj consumed certain forms of meat, I'm guessing he did not eat cow-flesh, correct?

    I'm strictly speaking about cow-flesh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
    What do you think of moksha?

    Is it an acquisition ?
    Is it a change of state?
    Is it a discovery of something that you already have?
    Does one experience moksha while alive or after death?
    Pranam-s,

    I obviously don't know enough about it. Thus, the thread.

  9. #29
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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Dear Yajvan ji.,

    Combining two of your responses in this thread and asking some Qs. First you said, Moksha is not something you have lost to attain or obtain it back just like a "necklace" you always own.

    Second, the "meat" eating etc. does not prevent someone from the experience of "Moksha".

    How are you connecting these two? What i understand reading your message is, all these rules, regulations etc. are for the bodily existence only and someone who surpass the BM complex will not be bound by such rules or regulations.

    Is your message implying that, we should not worry about these "regulation" but still believe there is some magic elevator that will "grant" moksha regardless of what you do with your Body and Mind?

    An advanced thinker or believer of "nothing needs to be obtained" should actually believe in no harm in nothing and should have the resolution to advocate "everything" is fine and will not prevent from the experience of Moksha as it is "always there" with in. But, why or what is stopping you from saying that? Like how Bhishma says, as he consumed the food offered by duryodana, his dhamic nature is clouded and once that blood produced by that adharmic anna is out of his body by the arrow of Arjuna, he was able to talk the "real dharma" and given us the Vishnu SahasraNama. Does that convey something more important and subtle.

    No one can sanction our own personal rules in the life style of Dharma and that is not called Dharma anymore if you do so. So, meat eating is prohibited as a regulation to cleanse your "engagement" of atma not just because it will influence the "Body Mind" complex alone. As long the Atma is engaged in maintaining the body and mind, it is not going to look "inside" or "self reveal" etc.

    Just my thoughts...you can disagree and disapprove.

    Hare krshna

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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Dear Yajvan ji.,
    Combining two of your responses in this thread and asking some Qs. First you said, Moksha is not something you have lost to attain or obtain it back just like a "necklace" you always own.

    Second, the "meat" eating etc. does not prevent someone from the experience of "Moksha".

    How are you connecting these two? What i understand reading your message is, all these rules, regulations etc. are for the bodily existence only and someone who surpass the BM complex will not be bound by such rules or regulations.

    Is your message implying that, we should not worry about these "regulation" but still believe there is some magic elevator that will "grant" moksha regardless of what you do with your Body and Mind?

    An advanced thinker or believer of "nothing needs to be obtained" should actually believe in no harm in nothing and should have the resolution to advocate "everything" is fine and will not prevent from the experience of Moksha as it is "always there" with in. But, why or what is stopping you from saying that? Like how Bhishma says, as he consumed the food offered by duryodana, his dhamic nature is clouded and once that blood produced by that adharmic anna is out of his body by the arrow of Arjuna, he was able to talk the "real dharma" and given us the Vishnu SahasraNama. Does that convey something more important and subtle.

    No one can sanction our own personal rules in the life style of Dharma and that is not called Dharma anymore if you do so. So, meat eating is prohibited as a regulation to cleanse your "engagement" of atma not just because it will influence the "Body Mind" complex alone. As long the Atma is engaged in maintaining the body and mind, it is not going to look "inside" or "self reveal" etc.
    Just my thoughts...you can disagree and disapprove.
    Hare krshna
    You have asked good questions, suggesting the intellect is sharp and alert. Let see if I can address the questions in a meaningful manner.

    This mokṣa is with you and me at all times. While you are here (reading) or in the deepest sleep do you ever not exist ? Mokṣa is , in its purest form, pure existence... and we exist. Even kṛṣṇa-jī says that there never was a time when I was not. So , ~my~ existence has been for all time. Yet 'yajvan' as an individual may come and go. That is of the ego, likes and dislikes, of big, small, of various varṇa-s ( outward appearances, class , tribe , order , caste ) may come and go, but the real essence of me never stops existing. So this mokṣa is the exhaustion of ignorance, that I am not this changing entity of class, tribe, size, shape, likes and dis-likes. I am this wholeness of being that is fullness itself. But it is not a foreign thing to me , it is at the base of my existence. It is just overshadowed by all of the actions of doing, of ego-wanting, of acquiring more things ( thinking more is the path to this fullness). Said another way mokṣa does not present itself as an object for our senses to experience because our senses are trained over time to face outwardly and not inward. We look to objects for experiences. We miss the simplicity of our inner being that is intimate with us , we miss it. So, how can one say mokṣa is outside of me, or the meat eater, or it is something to be attained? If it is to be attained or acquired it infers 'out side of me', and this is not the case.

    So what of all the rules of yama and ni-yama ( of which ahiṁsā resides). These are wonderful tools and methods for us to groom ourselves to look inward. They also bring order to our society when followed. They too prepare the soil to allow the growth of inward awareness. That is their most noble value to us, and I do follow them to the best of my abilities.
    Yet for the one that resides within the Self ( ātma-niṣṭa ,established in the Self) the rules are like water being carried in in wicker basket i.e. of little worth. Then this spiritual being is following the law of dharma with no effort, for the Self is none other then brahman within us. Within the realm of duality ( being human ) this is not yet the case and there needs to be guidelines and our śāstra-s are there for our guidance and support.

    Now you say something of great import, and is worthy of a deeper look:
    As long the Atma is engaged in maintaining the body and mind, it is not going to look "inside" or "self reveal" etc

    I am of the opinion that ātman is outside the field of action. In-and-of itself it has no vested interest in maintaining the body. Why do I say this ? It is supported in 2 places within the bhāgavad gītā ... (1) in every case all actions are the doing of the 3 guna-s, and this ātman is outside the purview of these guna-s. Hence the ~body complex~ functions within the relative field of existence of the 3 guna-s. and (2)verse 14 of chapter 4, informs us that actions do not involve me. The 'me' here is none other then kṛṣṇa-jī who is none other then brahman, and within us is ātman; because kṛṣṇa-jī is universal we must find him within our own Selves, the core of our own being.

    This meat eating issue
    Let's once again look to the bhāgavad gītā for proper direction. If we look to the 46th śloka of the 4th chapter, kṛṣṇa-jī informs us:
    even if you were the most sinful of all sinners, you would cross over all evil by the raft of knowledge alone.

    Would eating meat at least qualify as sin? And perhaps the killing of cows as the 'most sinful' ? Yet we are informed that knowledge will allow one to cross over from this sin. The question is what knowledge is kṛṣṇa-jī offering? It is not that of algebra, logic, social studies or the like, but of the knowledge of ātma-siddhi (Self-realization). This has been my point of view of the above posts. That 'sin' can be crushed.

    And all that do not know the Self intimately are in fact ( from the point of view of the upaniad-s¹) ātma-hano janāḥ or the killers of the Self (ātma).

    I am in hopes I added something to the overall conversation and have addressed your salient questions appropriately. If this not be not the case I will be happy to try another point of entry based upon your responses.

    iti śivaṁ

    1. īśavāsya upaniad, 3rd śloka
    Last edited by yajvan; 09 November 2013 at 04:05 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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