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Thread: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

  1. #51

    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Hi.,

    Re-opening this thread??

    A is the only thing in the universe and to experience that universe, you should be that A because you are that A!

    The above is a declaration of a newbie scientist. Now, he has cleverly connected all logical fallacy in to a simple paradoxical statement like the one above so that, you cannot question his verdict. Here is why it is paradoxical

    1. You must become that A to know you are actually that A
    2. Anything else that is not A does not exist including you - really.
    3. Anything else that is not real, can not give you idea of real - So, A alone can give you the experience
    4. You are that A anyways - But you do not have experience of A because you are in between point 2 and 3 - The paradox knot that will never leave you
    5. Since A is the only one, there is no experience and only experienced alone remain - the Sat! What is Experienced is also temporary however divine that is.
    6. Since A is always in that experience, now we are in a cyclic confusion - Where did anything else came from and going through and on what substratum
    7. Oh no, A is the only Being....so there is no Becoming - of anything else to A
    8. No you should not ask any question on the pt 7 - if A is the only Being, why am i not A - Immediate answer is, No you Are that. But , no i am not that - because i have different experience NOW! No you are that, but now you are neither that nor something else! Another Paradox.

    U know what, this bullets can be extended to infinity - all will be answered with paradoxes in between and not sure if that is called scientific and rational! Rationality requires support of a Fact - that fact cannot come from unreal sources - they must be real and here the only fact that is real is A itself! So, A is A - no further proof required! Thats the only rationality left and this situation and position is called, WASTE OF TIME!

    Hare Krshna!
    Namaste.

    What's the problem with paradoxes? And who calls them paradoxes and by what standard this judgement is made?

  2. #52
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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekam View Post
    Namaste.

    What's the problem with paradoxes? And who calls them paradoxes and by what standard this judgement is made?
    Paradoxes are not problem by itself.. knowing what it means is!

    5*0 = 10*0 => thus 5 = 10 is called a paradox!

    There are many variant of paradoxes and what i have listed is not about "any school of philosophy" but just iterated the statement and subsequent explanation justifying that statement with paradoxes.

    It is not about judgement - discussion is always open and judgement and conviction happens only at individual level or its personal. My expression might be totally due to my own understanding and limitation or this is what i see as my experience and possible conviction and does not alter or change yours as long as you have your own.

    Hare Krshna!

  3. #53

    Smile Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    "A is the only thing in the universe and to experience that universe, you should be that A because you are that A!

    The above is a declaration of a newbie scientist. Now, he has cleverly connected all logical fallacy in to a simple paradoxical statement like the one above so that, you cannot question his verdict. Here is why it is paradoxical

    1. You must become that A to know you are actually that A"

    Nice but your premise is wrong, you must not become "A" you are already "A".

    Now another mistake you have made, you are right in saying "A" is the only thing in the universe this is fine. Now you say to experience that universe viz "A" you should be "A" is a very wrong statement.


    Now a question may come to your mind, what are the conditions to experientially know the Brahman. So it is good that you are not asking this from merely a philosophical point of view but from the experiential point.

    For this one must obviously use the mind the Veda says " Manasaiva anudrastavyam" this means that it must be known through the mind only.

    Now another question may arise is Advaita Jnanam a type of Samadhi, the answer is no.

    Advaita Jnanam is knowledge not a type of Samadhi. The reason being that Samadhi is something that has a beginning and has an end as well.

    But is there a way to know the Advaita experientially the answer is a definite Yes. Initially we treat it as Brahmanubhava, but once having the Brahmanubhava one realises that there is no separate Brahmanubhava otherwise there will be an experiencer of the Advaita State. The Advaita State will become something to be experienced. This is definitely not the case.

    The only question that remains is that if every thing is Advaita then why is there this division of the experiencer and the experienced. ?

    Another question will be what will be the state of a Jnani who experiences this ?

    The answer is that once Advaita is experientially known and also one realises that there is no separate state of Advaita to be experienced but that Advaita is knowledge. One will understand this, till then what ever answers given will not satisfy you.

    As for the Jnani, he is already fulfilled hence seeing the world also he is fulfilled and without the world also he is fulfilled. He has solved his problem of deficiency or lack.

    I believe you are a follower of Iskcon, it is fine. But the problem is that I have read the works of Prabhupada and I can definitely tell you that he has no idea of what Advaita is. He calls it Mayavada. According to him Maya is illusion but remember an Advaitin never says that Maya is illusion.

    An Advaitin never says that the world is an illusion.

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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Namaste.,

    Very old thread...

    Even now, you do not and cannot go beyond the Paradox of A and Experiencing A! If you know the paradox, you know what i am talking about and if you do not know it is a paradox, you are advaitin

    Its futile to assume the school of TattvaVada or derivatives of it did not understand Advaita and until the time of Sri MadhuSudha, no advaitin ever put forth the wague argument of "they did not know advaita" as their supporting statement and made it a closed group taste based argument.

    If nothing else has reality, A has no business to know it as A cos it is already A and also with that awareness intact in all kala and all levels of experience or anuBhava or knowledge progress! Any preaching or philosophy you can put forth with this idea is a Paradox - its either you know it or you don't want to admit on the fear of loosing the interest in the faith itself.

    Hare Krshna
    Last edited by grames; 08 March 2015 at 05:17 PM.

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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Namaste Grames,

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Paradoxes are not problem by itself.. knowing what it means is!

    5*0 = 10*0 => thus 5 = 10 is called a paradox!
    I would not call it a paradox but wrong result obtained due to fallacious use of rule of mathematics due to one's ignorance or done deliberately/mischievously. Real paradoxes don't apply rules wrongly ... the apparent impossibility perceived in paradoxes is due to lack of knowledge of some hidden rules.

    I think this is what you keep doing in your arguments against Advaita ! ... and you get wrong results every time !!

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Dear Devotee.,

    I think we already had enough arguments in the subject of Advaita and for you i am ignorant and do not have understanding of advaita. That is fine. Be it.

    But, here is the definition of paradox

    a statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory.

    So, a Lion being neither Tree nor non-tree or divide by zero and then equate all number as one and same - are few examples of Paradoxes.

    Advaita, with the understanding of A is all but A has to know it is A - is just another Paradox. (unless proven otherwise). The crux of this paradox is, A is always aware of itself!

    Again, its my ignorance that is warranting again and again for a possibility of my very own understanding but alas, i am still ignorant and incapable of comprehending. That point alone is taken well.

    Hare Krshna!

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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Namaste Grames,

    I just wanted to point out my opinion on use of "Paradox" where mathematical rule (division by zero is not permitted) has been clearly violated to arrive at a wrong conclusion.

    You may like to see this definition :

    "a seemingly absurd or contradictory statement or proposition which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true."

    This is the history of this word :

    "Word Origin and History for paradox Expand
    n.
    1530s, "statement contrary to common belief or expectation," from Middle French paradoxe (14c.) and directly from Latin paradoxum "paradox, statement seemingly absurd yet really true," from Greek paradoxon, noun use of neuter of adjective paradoxos "contrary to expectation, incredible," from para- "contrary to" (see para- (1)) + doxa "opinion," from dokein "to appear, seem, think" (see decent ). Meaning "statement that is seemingly self-contradictory yet not illogical or obviously untrue" is from 1560s."

    In your definition too :

    "a statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory."

    "Seems" says that the conclusion derived is only apparent and not real.

    ****************

    It was just a friendly reminder as per my opinion. It is not necessary that I must be right from all angles. I didn't want to start any argument here. If I did, I am sorry.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  8. #58

    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    "Very old thread...

    Even now, you do not and cannot go beyond the Paradox of A and Experiencing A! If you know the paradox, you know what i am talking about and if you do not know it is a paradox, you are advaitin "

    Wrong you did not clearly read what I said, I said Brahman is not something that has to be experienced, I said that you know you are Brahman experientially . "A" is not experiencing "A" as you put it. Brahman or Atman is the source of experience it is not an experience.

    "Its futile to assume the school of TattvaVada or derivatives of it did not understand Advaita and until the time of Sri MadhuSudha, no advaitin ever put forth the wague argument of "they did not know advaita" as their supporting statement and made it a closed group taste based argument."

    Again you are assuming things here, I said that "Prabhupada" has no understanding of Advaita since I have clearly read his works and I have read Shankara's works as well.


    "If nothing else has reality, A has no business to know it as A cos it is already A and also with that awareness intact in all kala and all levels of experience or anuBhava or knowledge progress! Any preaching or philosophy you can put forth with this idea is a Paradox - its either you know it or you don't want to admit on the fear of loosing the interest in the faith itself. "

    Again where does Advaita Siddhanta say that nothing else has reality ? Please don't assume things here 1st know what the Advaita Siddhanta is and then respond. All I see are assumptions here and not a proper understanding of it.

    The only proper objection I have seen to Advaita Vedanta is by Ramanuja so I am not assuming that other Acharyas did not have an understanding.

    But I can say for certain that "Prabhupada" does not have any understanding of Advaita. He has merely made Strawman attacks.

    So I fail to see whatever Paradox you are pointing out to.

    However to be fair you can still question on seat of Avidya and so on but this has been answered in a million ways.

    What ever arguments you make you are making the following assumptions

    1.Brahman is the object of experience.

    This is definitely not true, Brahman is not the object of experience but that into which all experiences.

    2. Jiva becomes Brahman.

    This is again an assumption that Jiva becomes Brahman, viz wrong, Jiva does not become Brahman he is already Brahman.

    Please learn Advaita atleast conceptually and then respond. Please do not bring the same old arguments to me.

  9. #59

    Smile Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    "Even now, you do not and cannot go beyond the Paradox of A and Experiencing A! If you know the paradox, you know what i am talking about and if you do not know it is a paradox, you are advaitin "

    It took me some time to understand your statements, now you are saying that the universe is Brahman and the knower of Brahman is also Brahman.

    Therefore Brahman is experiencing Brahman. Yes not denying it so what is so paradoxical. Your objection will then be how can the experiencer and the experienced be same. The answer is that they can be same, but this cannot be decided merely on the basis of logic.

    Since I have stated long time back that logic is something limited to the waking state.

    Advaita takes into consideration all of the 3 states, the Vicharana done on the 3 states is what I am giving the name reason but not necessarily what you understand as viz relation to causation.

    It is due to this that I saw Advaita is quite rational meaning reasoning applied to 3 states and not merely the waking state. It is the absolute science.

  10. #60
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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Dear Devotee.,

    Very quick reply...
    i agree 'divide by zero' is not allowed - because??
    What i am seeking here is, you agreeing that, doing so results in Paradox ( There is a Book called Book of Paradox and lets not debate more on just the word paradox)

    The statement i have provided is that, like how divide by zero results in paradox, similarly A known A or A not Knowing A is a Paradox with that Crux of A always aware of itself!

    If you do understand this, my case is closed.

    Hare Krshna

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