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Thread: Liberation is longing for happiness.

  1. #11
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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    You mention they identify with the intellect, mind, body, etc. Who (or what) is doing the identifying ? If you say 'they are' (or written above human beings) what part of the ~human being~ is doing this identifying ?

    Dear Yajvan,

    It is agreed that a paradox is there at the core when the thread is partly analysed. And, the doubt would have been very well justified if it was presented in the very beginning of the thread itself.

    But, for now, with more additions into, the subject matter of the thread is clearly evident for anyone to see.

    Still it is being described here in a different format for furtehr clarification .

    ====

    Manas: What then is this discussion all about?

    Ātmā: The whole aim of this discussion is on how to attain a state happiness.


    Manas: Why can’t we have this technique described in a paragraph?

    Ātmā: There is no short cut or any kinds of technique etc. to wisdom; the only means available is to learn the scriptures.

    It is true that, a different method is being employed here in presenting the related subjects.


    Manas: What is that method?

    Ātmā: An opponent is being presented here. This opponent is not really apparent in usual passages on intellectual discussions, but is it always kept on the background. And the reader will have to postulate an opponent in between the lines for a better understanding of the subject.
    But, here, for the purpose our fellow readers, an opponent is being apparently presented.


    Manas: What does the opponent represent?

    Ātmā: The present opponent represents a common man of high state-education, who is familiar with everything that is happening related to the present day religion, but has no spiritual-education alongside a guru on the secrets of the Upanishads.

    ===========

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    You mention they identify with the intellect, mind, body, etc. Who (or what) is doing the identifying ? If you say 'they are' (or written above human beings) what part of the ~human being~ is doing this identifying ?


    Who will be there, however, to understand even if someone tries to put it?

    If at all, any duality is to be transcended , then, there should be a duality to postualted before doing so ; without which, the philosphy will fall into the absurdity of mechanistic monism.




    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    ...just thinking out loud ( no fault finding) ; the title of 'liberation is longing for happiness'. Is not the mumuku longing for liberation, but once revealed there is no longing , not even for happiness ?

    iti śiva

    Everyone one in this world knows what happiness is; or a state of fearlessness is not foreign to anyone out here; but, how long does it last, is the only question here.

    Unbroken Happiness alone transcends all the barriers and measures of space and time is again reminded here. Thus the longevity, if at all, of happiness too is also denied. Love

    Last edited by brahman; 23 November 2013 at 05:39 AM.
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

  2. #12
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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    Manas: Final question before we get into the comparison, if at all any, between the various types of philosophies: aren’t these westernized, these present versions of Vedanta that we are involved in?

    Ātmā: The claim is opposed; the discussion is not on the subject of Vedanta.


    Manas: What then is this discussion all about?

    Ātmā: The whole aim of this discussion is on how to attain a state happiness.


    Manas: Why can’t we have this technique described in a paragraph?

    Ātmā: There is no short cut or any kinds of technique etc. to wisdom; the only means available is to learn the scriptures.
    It is true that, a different method is being employed here in presenting the related subjects.


    Manas: What is this method emplyed here?

    Ātmā: An opponent is being presented here. This opponent is not really apparent in usual passages on intellectual discussions, but is always kept on the background. And the reader will have to postulate an opponent in between the lines for a better understanding of the subject.

    That is ,we dont remain a blind reader of the texts whater it is; yet, believing the author of text at once, and thus saving ourselves from falling into the distater of scpeticism. So, basicaly, this is belief and search at once.

    But, here, in this present discussion , for the benefit our fellow readers, an opponent is apparently presented to counter the sepaker.

    We see someone else refering to this double-sided method of search for educating people, though the subjectmatter is entirely different there...Read

    Manas: What then does the opponent represent?

    Ātmā: The present opponent represents a common man of high state-education, who is familiar with everything that is happening related to the present day religion, but has no spiritual-education alongside a guru on the secrets of the Upanishads.

    Manas: What then is the intention behind pouring in these westernised philosophical terms in to a discussion that pertains to the realm of the Upanishads, which has an origin on the Indian soil and not in the West?

    Ātmā: it is evident that the language of communication chosen here to interact with each other is English.


    Manas: Well, it agreed that the language is English but the context belongs to the Vedic dharma.

    Ātmā: Well, this discussion is not emphasising on any particular means to happiness; but it rather includes all forms and means to happiness, that all human beings are always familiar with, and finally, having an origin tracing back to the tradition of the Upanishads.


    Manas: Isn’t then comfortable using the equivalent Sanskrit terms to replace such words as Cosmological. Psychological, etc., which are foreign to Indians?

    Ātmā: A particular Sanskrit word-meaning belongs to a certain philosophic branch might have different idea in the context of another philosophy, and interestingly, both belong to the same Upanishad dharma.

    Hence the need for a common language is identified here.


    Manas: Would it be, a common language for all, even confusing than the existing verbosity of the present day philosophers?

    Ātmā: We think think this method is really convenient. At least in such situations, like simple-minded but rather educative discussions, people would always try to find a common ground to interact with each other rather than going into biased verbosity.


    Though this practice may find it quite difficult in the beginning, the apparent difficulty diminishes as it goes.
    Last edited by brahman; 23 November 2013 at 05:46 AM.
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

  3. #13
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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté brahman

    I wrote,
    You mention they identify with the intellect, mind, body, etc. Who (or what) is doing the identifying ? If you say 'they are' (or written above human beings) what part of the ~human being~ is doing this identifying ?

    you mention,
    Who will be there, however, to understand even if someone tries to put it?
    If at all, any duality is to be transcended , then, there should be a duality to postulated before doing so ; without which, the philosophy will fall into the absurdity of mechanistic monism

    I have read this , yet my thirst for the answer remains unquenched. Let me offer the following for one's kind consideration.


    Between the purity of the stainless Self (ātman) and the body there resides this intangible link. It is so close to us that we miss it unless some inspection is done. This intangible link is the ego (āhamkara or 'I' maker or doer). It is called by another name also, cit-jaḍa-granthi or the knot (granthi) between cit (or chit ~consciousness~) and jaḍa (or stiffness, unintelligent) which is another name for the body.
    This ego (āhamkara) is the in-between link. It is this ~link~ that does the identifying. It is this knot that is quite subtle ; people pass-it-up. It is the link that does the identyfing with the body.


    Now this is quite subtle and takes a bit to appreciate. Let me explain. It is the source of one's thinking ' I am this, I am that, I am going here and there, I am happy, sad, mad, etc.' We trace it to this intangible link , ego. It is found as 'I thought', the notion of 'me'. It is one's reference point of being 'me' as a human. Yet here is the beauty of this knot, if you go to look for it in earnest, this ego then subsides, it yields. It therefore (over time) with not be a consideration if one pursues it in earnest... thus one's sādhana.


    An even finer point... this ego rests on something even more subtler then itself. Without it, it has no life. When one associates with this even finer level of existence the fuel for the ego is no more. We can talk of this at a later time as it requires a longer runway to get to a reasonable level of comprehension. But let me say this (again), the ego is also responsible for the fundamental mis-representation of dehātma buddhi or the Self (ātma) as the body (deha).

    So, one last thing on this knot (cit-jaḍa-granti ); it likes to eat and get bigger. What does it eat ? Objects and forms. What would be an example? I am a manager, I want to be the VP, I want to be ______ (fill in the blank) , I want a bigger house, family, car, bike, gems, etc. It (ego) tends to grasp for more and more. It holds one thing, then grasps for another like a caterpillar going from one blade of grass, then grasping for the next as it moves on.

    Now a stop-gap measure to keeping the ego in-check is that of humbleness (namra, some call upajīvin¹). Being humble is not thinking less of your self, but less about yourself. In this approach one is not feeding the ego, the knot. But this too the ego can get hold of and play games... 'Oh, I am so humble - look at me, I am just like a blade of grass, nothing in this world'. The only thing we may wish to do, to be effective, is to be without this knot, be rid of it, and then one is left in one's natural stainless state of Being.

    iti śiva

    words
    • granthi - " a knot tied closely/tightly and therefore difficult to be undone "
    • namra - bowing; reverential , humble
    • upajīvin - submissive , humble
    Last edited by yajvan; 23 November 2013 at 06:16 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #14
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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    Dear Yajvan,

    Well, we all are human beings gathered here; and with reference to your quote below, we have a very humble question, which was unanswered in your second post.

    The question, which was tactically put in our earlier post , is made crystal clear, for everyone's understanding here:


    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    You mention they identify with the intellect, mind, body, etc. Who (or what) is doing the identifying ? If you say 'they are' (or written above human beings) what part of the ~human being~ is doing this identifying ?

    With which part of our existence, as human beings, should we comprehend the scholastic expositions of your second post?

    Love
    Last edited by brahman; 24 November 2013 at 12:21 AM.
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

  6. #16
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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    Manas: The need for a common language is understood, it is essential; at least, when the situation warrants.

    But, aren’t we getting tied up with another scheme of linguistic diversity?

    Ātmā: Yes definitely, though a common language suffices the need for a better understanding of the complex subjects like metaphysics etc., is, after all, a science alone.


    Manas: Does it mean that the present system lacks any universality, that is, finally, a sect of people alone can appreciate it?

    Ātmā: it is universal in every aspect; yet, the acceptance of it lies in the eye of the beholder.


    Manas: It is not clear?

    Ātmā: Because, the universality of any science can only be measured from the standpoint of its benefits and quality; and, not from the amount of its quantity in members who fervently admire it.


    Manas: So, now we think, we are ready for the teaching?

    Ātmā: There is no teaching etc. here. This is only a minor practice of trial and error method that is constraining only to our own threads. And any presentations on sciences such as linguists etc are not our mission either.

    Rather it would only mean that, we use a common language within our threads; and these usages will in no way contradict with their future ones.

    That’s all about it.


    Manas: How do we then learn this?

    Ātmā: We learn it in the same sense that, just as we started to speak our mother tongue.


    Manas: But, it not just a spoken language alone.

    Ātmā: Yes, we have gained some proficiency in its grammar etc., but, it was only happened during our later stages of our education, and not in the early childhood itself.


    Manas: Hope the coming presentation meets all the norms of morality, at least, as stated by some of the best of statesmen on the nature of teaching:

    ❝If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his head. If you talk to him in his own language, that goes to his heart.❞


    Ātmā: Well, morality etc. are not only applicable to the proponent alone; but also, to the opponent as well.


    Upanishads, by its absolutist status, stands far beyond the expressions of common understanding. Though it tends to be esoteric in nature, in actuality it is not; exoteric is its real nature, but only when, it is analysed in a methodological parlance.
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

  7. #17
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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    hari o
    ~~~~~~


    namasté brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by brahman View Post
    With which part of our existence, as human beings, should we comprehend the scholastic expositions of your second post?
    With our mind... if we could do this with pure mind ( without vāsanā-s¹) that would be preferred. Yet to ~comprehend~ the Supreme it is advised to do this with 'no mind' or mṛtyu¹ manas.

    iti śiva

    words

    • vāsanā - impressions in the mind
    • mṛtyu - death

    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #18
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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    hari o
    ~~~~~~


    namasté brahman


    Quote Originally Posted by brahman View Post
    Well, we all are human beings gathered here
    Herein lies the problem.



    iti śiva
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #19
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    Arrow Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    With our mind... if we could do this with pure mind ( without vāsanā-s¹) that would be preferred. Yet to ~comprehend~ the Supreme it is advised to do this with 'no mind' or mṛtyu¹ manas.

    [SIZE=3]
    iti śiva
    Dear Yajvan,

    Well, these are all enlightened POVs, with which, we have been done and already satisfied. Hence, we are not expecting any possible replies to these questions, but:

    Still someone should be there to see the 'no mind' or 'mṛtyu¹ manas'.

    It means, ‘a seer’ and ‘the seen’ is involved in the present speculation, which is a duality of a higher order in every philosophising.

    How does these two, the seer and the seen, find a common ground of an Absolutist status? Or

    How do we transcend this - seer and the seen - duality to attain a state of perfect non-dualism?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post


    Herein lies the problem.



    Definitely yes, the sciences are meant for human beings; and, not for animals.

    An expert should be able to speak his science, at least when situations warrants, not necessarily in its abstract form, but in terms of ordinary understanding, to the common public; or else, his science is not said to be universal, and it can only be considered as a mental exercise alone.


    ====================


    We, by nature, are practical people, and always would love to stand by the dictum ‘science for man’, and not otherwise, that is, man for science.

    Accomplishing the task of attaining a Unitive vision of all practices, by comprising it all together, at least within the methodological importance of the Upanishads, though omitting its many other aspects that are not really necessary for the ordinary public, still without much contradictions, would be the whole purport of the thread, that is now in motion; the mission for which has only began, but with a firm awareness that, it will never come to an end.

    To remind that, we have no particular point to prove here; therefore, we spare no time for debates and havocs.

    Love


    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

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