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Thread: Liberation is longing for happiness.

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    Liberation is longing for happiness.



    A series of discussion between manas and Ātmā.


    Manas: Why do we wish to get liberated? Or Of what we want to get liberated?

    Ātmā : Because we are ignorant, we need to get liberated from the darkness of ignorance.

    Manas: Then what are we ignorant of?

    Ātmā: We are ignorant of our real identity.

    Manas: If we are ignorant of our real identity; then what is our real identity?

    Ātmā : Human beings, by nature, have a habit of identifying themselves with their intellect, mind, body, family, relatives, community, society, profession, states, country, religion, teachers, and ideology, and so and so...

    Manas: then...

    Ātmā : And finally forgets their real nature that they are none other than the same substance that forms as all that we see here. That is, forgetting the fact that the whole universe is made of that one substance, which is sat-cit-ananda in essence. And because of their ignorance they don’t discriminate between the real and the unreal.


    To be continued..
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    Manas: As we live in this world of necessities, how do we transcend all these inevitable, though ignorant, identities of ours?

    Everyone can’t live in solitude!

    Ātmā: It is not so. We don’t need to live in solitude to attain the perfect state of happiness. We have only analysed that which causes the wrong identity and not yet discussed the removal of ignorance.

    Manas: Yes! That’s right.

    Ātmā: So now it is understood here that mere finding the cause of wrong identity alone will not suffice the need for liberation; the cause needs to be eliminated too. In addition to, it is also clear that our ignorance make us suffer.

    Manas: Yes, we have not yet seen the process of removal (of this ignorance). But for now, what exactly is this suffering?

    Ātmā: Suffering is a state of acute pain.

    Manas: Then what is pain?

    Ātmā: Pain is lack of pleasure.

    Manas: Then what is pleasure?

    Ātmā: Something that provides a source of happiness or a kind fulfilment which is hard to explain still it is something that everyone constantly wants to keep realizing throughout their life.

    Manas: Now, it is somewhat clear that longing for liberation, otherwise is an act of longing for happiness.

    To be continued..
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    Manas: Thus, the liberation means, finally, we are reaching a state of Complete Happiness, which is precisely a state of no suffering or ignorance. Is that right?

    Ātmā: Yes; that’s right. But, with capital B, we would like to emphasise something important here.

    Manas: What is that point of paramount importance?

    Ātmā: That is, the removal of darkness is not possibly achieved by pushing the darkness aside; but it is only accomplished by bringing the light inside; and by doing so, the feel of darkness of ignorance gets automatically diminishes.

    Manas: A little more clarification on the process of removal of darkness would be beneficial.

    Ātmā: let it be so. The process of removal of darkness is a common event in our daily life, and it is known through the senses. We don’t require any capacity of higher intuition or reasoning to comprehend this process.

    For example we have a dark room. And to illuminate it we never push the darkness aside with an effort that is very inconvenient; instead, with comfort and ease we bring in a lit lamp inside and the whole room would look brighter than ever before.

    Manas: What is the kind of light that we need to bring in to illuminate ourselves and to get rid of the darkness of ignorance?

    Ātmā: As we are aware, here the light we are speaking of is not an alight wax candle or an electric lamp.

    Manas: what exactly then is the nature of light we are longing for?

    Ātmā: Even if we know the real nature of what that Light is, as it is not a physical phenomena, we cannot even speak out a single word about it.

    To be continued...
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    Manas: What is the significance of the scriptures if one can’t speak a single word about the light that removes the darkness of ignorance?

    Ātmā: There comes the word privilege.

    Manas: What does the word privilege mean and whose it is?

    Ātmā: Privilege, at this occasion, can be translated as 'a natural and unusual innate ability to expound the meaning of the meaning of Unknown in terms of known'. This ability is reserved exclusively by particular people called the Sages or the Seers.

    Manas: How do they expound the Unknown in terms known?

    Ātmā: The light that removes the darkness of ignorance is the quest here. The privileged sages have seen the culminating point of this light we are in search of. And they are very kind people also. So, they thought of expounding it for the benefit of their fellow men. And they started to speak of it for everyone to hear; so these words are precisely to be heard. So it is called the Shruti. So shruti is ‘Light’ and ‘Wisdom’ at once.

    Hence Shruti is Word Wisdom.


    Manas: How does the two, the light and the words, co-exist?

    Ātmā : How does it, the light and the word, co-exist is another difficult subject yet to be expounded here; perhaps, this is to be accomplished in a short period of another 5-10 years, which is quite short in comparison to the years required for accomplishing the studies of certain sciences belong to the same sanātana dharma.

    To be continued..

    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    Manas: Well that said. Just we are ordinary people gathered here, and not metaphysicians like Sankara or Socrates; how do these sages expect people like us to understand these confusing, yet unavoidable, flashes of these freedom contents?

    Ātmā: The only means recommended is to take refuge in the scriptures and its present, bygone, and future teachers.

    Manas: Yes, we respect the scriptures and the teachers belonging to the dharma; there is no disagreement to it. How does, but, is it possible for a person caught in the realm of worldly responsibilities to learn the whole range of scriptures to attain the state of extreme happiness?

    Wouldn’t we get stuck in the middle of both, the mundane and spiritual?

    Ātmā: Here we need to differentiate the subtlety between Self-knowledge and Self-happiness.

    Manas: What is the subtle difference between Self-knowledge (ātma- jñāna’ ) and Self-happiness(ātma-ānanda)?

    Ātmā: Let us have a look at self Self-knowledge first.

    No Sage of antiquity is asking everyone alike to by-heart the scriptures. But there are exceptions to it. Some studious seekers, who are really competent with all the pre-requisites get fully engaged in the field of learning of the word of the sages ‘as it is’, and has made learning as their svadharma, has been taught with great enthusiasm by true teachers wisdom .

    These are the people engaged ‘in the path of Self- knowledge or ātma- jñāna’.

    Manas: it’s really interesting to know about the people of high competency. What about the rest, the lesser competent?

    Ātmā: Of course, there are others, not really competent to grasp the scriptures ‘as it is’ , and whose svadharma is not learning the scriptures , but still striving for happiness, belong to the category of ‘one in the path of ātma-ānanda or Self- happiness.

    (Which is also known as ātma- śānti or ātma- sukha or ātma- santoṣaḥ or ātma- nirvṛti or ātma- nityatā or ātma- lābha etc.).

    One in the path of ātma-ānanda is not much bothered about the scientific validity of the Self-same truth.

    Manas: What more do they, the one in the path of Self-knowledge, attains by ascertaining the scientific validity of the Self?

    Ātmā: It’s not about gaining something more than what others have achieved; but it is because of their svadharma that they are engaged in the critical analysis of the Self.

    Manas: Are these two , the ātma-jñāna and ātma-ānanda, experientially the same?

    Ātmā: Experientially it is the same. Both are enjoying the same kind of happiness; and it is evident that both experiences belonging to the same ānanda content of the Ātmā or Brahman as it is described in the scriptures.

    Though, both blind and true loves are perfect Love in essence, cannot be differentiated by ordinary logic, but with experience alone one understands the difference between both of this.

    To be continued..
    Last edited by brahman; 19 November 2013 at 05:10 AM.
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    ॐ स॒ह ना॑ववतु । स॒ह नौ॑ भुनक्तु ।
    स॒ह वी॒र्यं॑ करवावहै ।
    ते॒ज॒स्वि ना॒वधी॑तमस्तु॒ मा वि॑द्विषा॒वहै॑ ॥
    ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः
    om saha nāvavatu
    saha nau bhunaktu
    saha vīryaṃ karavāvahai
    tejasvināvadhītamastu mā vidviṣāvahai
    oṃ śāntiḥ śāntiḥ śāntiḥ
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    Manas: So it is understood here that, the both means of Happiness, the Self- Knowledge and the self-happiness, are equally good.

    Is it, but, so common to see people gathering around saints, and these saints, though not even holding a basic academic qualification, still known to be good teachers of wisdom? What do they teach?

    Ātmā: Such attributes really cover only the popular and mass-devotional requirements of ordinary religion. Such popular religious expressions are interesting but not really valid in the context of the Upaniṣads. It is one of the weaknesses of the human mind is this tendency towards anthropomorphism.

    Manas: Does it mean that the longing for Self-Knowledge offers something more?

    Ātmā: A comparison between the life-experiences of both, the one looking for Happiness and the one for Self-knowledge, if at all necessary, should be conducted on the light of their svadharma alone, and not in their experiential content of happiness.

    That is, the svadharma or occupation for which one is trained is something else and not just learning the scriptures alone, shouldn’t get confused with the wrong notion that by learning the scriptures alone one would attain the state of Happiness. It is not so.

    Both 'jñāna’ and ānanda, at least at an experiential level, are the same in essence.

    Manas: Why should one in the path of self knowledge dedicates his entire life, leaving even the minimum of worldly pleasures, for the sake of the scientific validity of the Self or Ānanda, if the experiences of both these types of seekers are same in essence and in quality ?

    Ātmā: This has been already explained; it is just because the one in self-knowleedge has chosen the process of learning as his svadharma.

    Manas: How do we differentiate, if at all, the words of a Self-knower and of one in Self-happiness?

    Ātmā: Yes, there is a subtle difference exists between their words( or precisely their works or the compositions.)

    The one in Self- knowledge or Ātmavit alone is the only accredited authority of the scriptures.
    As he is the learner of all the three major requirements needed for a true Wisdom teaching, doesn’t merely get merged into a state of extreme Happiness; but rather gains the status of a continuator of the ‘Word Wisdom’ by gaining the scientific correctness of the Self from his guru.

    Manas: What are the three major requirements needed for a scientific correctness of the Self?

    Ātmā: The three major requirements are the metaphorical correctness of the scriptures, the metaphysical (or scientific) validity of the word wisdom and the ethics and aesthetics (or the moral principles and values in general to all human beings). These are the three cardinal values of a true wisdom teaching for which the Upaniṣads on Indian soil always stand for.

    Manas: Does it mean that the saints in mystical ecstasies lack something out of the three explained above?

    Ātmā: These saints in devotion are equally good as their ancient counterparts at their metaphorical correctness, morals, ethics and aesthetics. But their mystical compositions get only a secondary position as its lacks methodological assessment of the Self, which is an inevitable scientific correctness involved in every metaphysical speculation.

    Manas: How can these two, the one in Self-Knowledge and the one in Bliss, be differentiated in the scientific terminology of the Upaniṣads?

    Ātmā: The one in Self-Knowledge is a Jñāna-yogin and the one in bliss can be called a ‘karma yogin’.

    These are the only two possible variations accepted and approved by the Upaniṣad-tradition for the attainment of a state of perfect Happiness.

    These variations are more precisely termed as Jñāna-yoga and karma-yoga.

    Manas: Is it really necessary that a teacher is required for heading towards the path of Self-Knowledge against the notion that the self-happiness can be attained even without having a Self-knowing guru?

    Ātmā:Some instruction has to be given because positive knowledge cannot come by itself. A teacher's authority is involved here.

    To know on the contrary that all belongs to Love or Happiness does not require proof or teaching. It is a matter of general observation.

    To be continued..
    Last edited by brahman; 20 November 2013 at 04:13 AM.
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    Manas: Aren’t these blanket terminologies; the metaphorical correctness, the metaphysical validity, morality, ethics etc.?

    Ātmā: Look, our conversation was started on how to attain the state of Self-happiness, and not about any comparison between the Self-knowledge and Self Happiness.

    Therefore we wouldn’t linger long into those subjects at the moment.


    Manas: Isn’t it, this negative attitude of denial of further clarification to these above questions, a violation of the popular ethics as understood in the Upaniṣads?

    Ātmā: What is that popular notion on Upaniṣad-ethics that requires further clarification?


    Manas: Here is the popular quote:

    “Now, if you should have doubt concerning an act, or doubt concerning conduct, if there should be there Brahmans competent to judge, apt, devoted, not harsh, lovers of virtue (dharma) as they may behave themselves in such a case, so should you behave yourself in such a case.

    Now, with regard to (people) spoken against, if there should be there Brahmans competent to judge, apt, devoted, not harsh, lovers of virtue - as they may behave themselves with regard to such, so should you behave yourself with regard to such.”

    Ātmā: Yes, this belongs to the earliest known moral instructions found in the wonderful passages of the Taittirīya Upaniṣad.

    Although these moral instructions don’t violate the requirements of ordinary understanding, these words in particular pertaining to some special situations involved in higher wisdom teaching.


    Manas: What is that special occasion in which these moral instructions belong to?

    Ātmā: This occasion is called the samāvartana: the time of returning of a student of wisdom teaching, from his teacher’s place, after the accomplishment of the first phase of his education.


    Manas: Aren’t these instructions valid in the context of ordinary behavioural pattern of human beings?

    Ātmā: Upaniṣads always stand for a certainty that is universal.

    This universality in morality that Upaniṣads represents is not the contemporary ethics as understood in ‘call centres’ and ‘corporate wisdom academies’ situated in city centres.

    That is, this ethics are not a feeling of mere humbleness or politeness or gentleness as taught by the invasive alien missionaries; on the other hand, it is all about a natural occurrence of a kind of behavioural pattern attained by establishing a kind of reciprocity and a mutual complementarily between the speaker and the listener. These are the real situations in which true ethics of the Upaniṣads works as a natural consequence.


    Manas: But it is popularly known otherwise; these teachings as only a general instructions given to the public.

    Can we have here the full quote to substantiate this new notion which is contrary to the popular ones?


    Ātmā: Yes, we shall have a look at the beautiful passages of the Taittirīya Upaniṣad (Śikṣā valli - anuvāka: 11- mantra 1 )

    "After teaching the Vedās, the preceptor instructs the disciple: “Speak truth; follow righteousness. Be not heedless about the study (of the śruti). Offer to the preceptor the wealth desired and cautious not to break the line of progeny. Be not regardless of truth; be not indifferent to righteousness. Be not negligent of self-protection. There should be no neglect of propitious rites. Do not be heedless about the study and teaching (of the śruti)."



    Manas: Why does one require a further advice after completing his education?

    Ātmā: Because, education is something that has neither an end nor a beginning; it is to be continued throughout our life.

    Thus the instruction given is: Svādhyāyāt mā pramadaḥ - never depart from learning.

    ===================

    Manas: Well, these acts of breaking away from finding perfect solutions to such conundrums like metaphorical correctness etc., and also the habit of giving cryptic writings in return to simple questions, can only make a real student of wisdom almost laughable.

    Ātmā: This is how the wisdom teaching on Indian soil has always being employed.

    The quality of being adequately well equipped for instructions is an inevitable requisite every seeker needs to acquire.


    Whether contact with West- Asian exegesis and other Oriental Civilizations had any affect on the true style of the Upaniṣad-tradition is an open question into which we do not want to enter.


    To be continued..

    Last edited by brahman; 21 November 2013 at 06:19 AM.
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    Manas: Well, it is agreed that most of us have not had any kind of forest education on Self-knowledge as it is necessitated in the Upanishads. But it doesn’t however mean that all of us gathered here are just illiterate; but, we excel in the field of our svadharma and never feel that, having no Self-knowledge is a state of deprived Happiness.

    Ātmā: See, the claim is objected; because, a comparison between the grades of happiness, or gaining a competitive advantage over the other is not the real purport of this discussion. Both Self- Knowledge and Self- Happiness are equally good.


    Manas: What if this practice of countering helps us find some peace and happiness?

    Ātmā: A comparison, after all, is a waste of time; yet, the whole purport of countering these statements is to gain some happiness is a notion that is agreeable. But, then again, this happiness is not though unbroken.


    Manas: How do we capitalize the continuity-factor?

    Ātmā: One has taken the vocation of learning as his svadharma alone can appreciate and attain the state of Happiness that has an unbroken continuity. Although very lower in magnitude is his happiness during the initial stages of studies, he, in fact, is happy with it.


    Manas: Well, then, we are happy with what we understand; and literacy into metaphors, modern sciences and humanity are not foreign to us also; there are many here who are masters in their respective field of studies.
    Would then it be possible to solve this apparent conundrum by citing to some kind of examples?

    Ātmā: Yes, this would be a great idea to illustrate the differences between the writings, by citing to some examples, of the mystical saints and the modern scientists against the true literary styles of the Upanishads.


    Manas: How do we actually follow the comparisons as these are too strange to us?

    Ātmā: It wouldn’t be a riddle at all; at least, the people are educated and when the present mission is only a caparison and not an authentic voyage into these enigmatic literatures, it is not expected to be a trouble at all.


    Manas: Still, it is for the first time that we are going to come across, at least in field of spirituality, such conundrums as metaphorical correctness and metaphysical validity etc. Hence, it would be highly appreciated if further descriptions include the reasons also to why a quote is being cited and to which quote it it to be compared with.

    Ātmā: Nevermind, we shall try to have short notes to every quote.


    Manas: However, in usual course of discussions, especially the ones claiming to be ‘Self- knowers’ make the readability suffer with complex verbosity that makes a layman almost frustrate, which prevents him from attaining even a small degree of happiness. Whereas it is repeated everywhere, again and again, that attaining happiness is the whole purport of this discussion.

    Ātmā: Well, frustrations etc. are not restricted; though, a strong will to perform the task of reading, again and again, is the most important thing recommended in situations of higher knowledge.

    Word wisdom is word Magic; and hence it cannot be bettered. If bettered, it falls into the absurdity of psychology, mysticism or crude morality.


    In the Upaniṣads the ideas of Brahman, Ātmā and Ānanda are often used interchangeably; it means, the cosmological, the psychological and the ethical elements clinging together to trodden the full vision of the Absolute.


    To be continued...
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

  10. #10
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    Re: Liberation is longing for happiness.

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté
     
    Quote Originally Posted by brahman View Post
    Manas: Then what are we ignorant of?

    Ātmā: We are ignorant of our real identity.
    Manas: If we are ignorant of our real identity; then what is our real identity?

    Ātmā : Human beings, by nature, have a habit of identifying themselves with their intellect, mind, body, family, relatives, community, society, profession, states, country, religion, teachers, and ideology, and so and
    You mention they identify with the intellect, mind, body, etc. Who (or what) is doing the identifying ? If you say 'they are' (or written above human beings) what part of the ~human being~ is doing this identifying ?


    ...just thinking out loud ( no fault finding) ; the title of 'liberation is longing for happiness'. Is not the mumuku longing for liberation, but once revealed there is no longing , not even for happiness ?

    iti śiva
    Last edited by yajvan; 22 November 2013 at 06:39 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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