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Thread: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

  1. #11
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Namaste,

    The world is real for Ignorant people, while it is unreal for a Jnani says Patanjali yoga Sutra 2.22.

    The world is an illusion has to be experienced. If you merely say or convince yourself with tarka (logic) like a NyAyika (person following nyAya), then it is just an empty talk.

    It is like seeing snake, but saying I see rope. It is not that the teachings are false. They are true, but they have to be realized. Here the path begins. sAdhanA is for removal for ignorance.

    Hence we have to take relative reality (vyavahArika satya) and absolute reality (pArmArthika satya).

    Real is that which is present at all times and is eternal. All end in Jnana except Brahman. I think for practical purpose this explanation is useful.

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  2. #12
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    If I am sitting on the sun, how can I say there is darkness ? If I am setting on the earth I see day and night pass by.

    If I am walking on a road I cannot see what is coming. But if I am standing on the mountain top I see the lay of the land. Like that, the wise are able to ~see~ the lay of the land, all the curves, the forks in the road, etc. and can provide good council to the one's below walking on the road.

    One's view depends upon the level of consciousness that has been cultured.

    iti śiva
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #13

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post

    The world is an illusion has to be experienced. If you merely say or convince yourself with tarka (logic) like a NyAyika (person following nyAya), then it is just an empty talk.
    Namaste

    I wholeheartedly agree.
    For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, none will suffice. ~Joseph Dunninger

  4. #14
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    If I am sitting on the sun, how can I say there is darkness ? If I am setting on the earth I see day and night pass by.

    If I am walking on a road I cannot see what is coming. But if I am standing on the mountain top I see the lay of the land. Like that, the wise are able to ~see~ the lay of the land, all the curves, the forks in the road, etc. and can provide good council to the one's below walking on the road.

    One's view depends upon the level of consciousness that has been cultured.

    iti śiva
    Namaste,

    I think we are speaking same thing. You explained it better.

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  5. #15
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Of course it's real and true only the levels differ. But to your point chair doesn't exist because there is no inherent quality of a chair and itsn't the quality of Brahman that you identify an object as chair but it's the other way round.. you call it a chair after you define the purpose of an object.
    ॐ महेश्वराय नमः

    || Om Namo Bhagavate Rudraya ||

    Hara Hara Mahadeva Shambo Shankara

  6. #16
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit Seeker View Post
    Namaste

    I wholeheartedly agree.
    Namaste,

    These are not 'just' my words. They are words of Kanchi Paramacharya.

    Advaita, asks us to focus on NirguNa aspect, hence whatever is within guNa-s is negated, not given importance. This does not mean that I should not meditate or eat or sleep as everything is illusion. The theory of Illusion does not give license to go crazy and insane

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  7. #17

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Namaste
    As you seem well versed in western philosophy, it would not be to far of to compare cedillas. Philosophy to the monism pre-socratics.

    But unlike Greek philosophy there was little debate on the most basic essence of the universe. Vedantist call it Brahman which is infinite energy-consciousness.
    I think the best translation for Brahman, is the Greek aperion which requires futher translation and means "unbounded".

    This variates into infinite qualities. Yet it is the One existence, thus anything other than the One is considered unreal.

    For example a snow ball isn't a snow ball, it is actually just snow.

    So objects aren't objects, they are actually just variations of one energy.

    Pranam
    "Names and forms are like bangles and braclets and Vishnu is like the Gold." - Adi Shankara

  8. #18

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post
    Namaste,

    These are not 'just' my words. They are words of Kanchi Paramacharya.

    Advaita, asks us to focus on NirguNa aspect, hence whatever is within guNa-s is negated, not given importance. This does not mean that I should not meditate or eat or sleep as everything is illusion. The theory of Illusion does not give license to go crazy and insane

    Aum
    Namaste
    Tell the Babas that especially the Bauls
    "Names and forms are like bangles and braclets and Vishnu is like the Gold." - Adi Shankara

  9. #19

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Real is pertaining to reality. But that makes it very hard to define as we can not define reality, because it is the subject we examine. Whatever definition we use is unprovable and will determine the logical conclusions. So even if we do define our concepts, this already is like answering the question. That is why religion often is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    What is the whole purpose of this discussion? Does it have a purpose from Hindu perspective? The answer is yes. Sages tell us that the way we experience reality can be changed. It is possible to experience reality in a state that is stable and filled with continuous happiness, or bliss.

    Now the arbitrary thing is this state is considered "more real". A more accurate word would probably be "more blissful", because both states are real in their own right. But when we call one more real than they other becomes less real or more illusionary.

    So the prime purpose for calling our world illusionary is to open the mind to another state of experience. It should not be seen as an absolute claim. So why did the Sages call the state of bliss more real? That is because they made the assumption that an unchanging state is more real than a changing state. The state of absolute bliss is an unchanging state, while our present state is continuously changing. So they reasoned, the Divine is unchanging and therefor ultimate reality and everything else is changing and less real or illusionary. What we see in the world has no permanent state, but only for a time, thus creating the illusion of being unchangeable. That is the illusion we are talking about. We give things unchanging names as if they are unchanging entities, but they are changing entities. So these names only create the illusion in the mind that things are unchangeable. Thinking itself is the creator of this illusion. That is why thinking must be overcome to reach the higher state.

  10. #20

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Avyaydya View Post
    Real is pertaining to reality. But that makes it very hard to define as we can not define reality, because it is the subject we examine. Whatever definition we use is unprovable and will determine the logical conclusions. So even if we do define our concepts, this already is like answering the question. That is why religion often is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    What is the whole purpose of this discussion? Does it have a purpose from Hindu perspective? The answer is yes. Sages tell us that the way we experience reality can be changed. It is possible to experience reality in a state that is stable and filled with continuous happiness, or bliss.

    Now the arbitrary thing is this state is considered "more real". A more accurate word would probably be "more blissful", because both states are real in their own right. But when we call one more real than they other becomes less real or more illusionary.

    So the prime purpose for calling our world illusionary is to open the mind to another state of experience. It should not be seen as an absolute claim. So why did the Sages call the state of bliss more real? That is because they made the assumption that an unchanging state is more real than a changing state. The state of absolute bliss is an unchanging state, while our present state is continuously changing. So they reasoned, the Divine is unchanging and therefor ultimate reality and everything else is changing and less real or illusionary. What we see in the world has no permanent state, but only for a time, thus creating the illusion of being unchangeable. That is the illusion we are talking about. We give things unchanging names as if they are unchanging entities, but they are changing entities. So these names only create the illusion in the mind that things are unchangeable. Thinking itself is the creator of this illusion. That is why thinking must be overcome to reach the higher state.
    You see if one were to put it that way, it's easier for my mind to grasp and accept by the very structure of it.

    Pertaining to solipsism and how one can easily mistake advaita for solipsism is usually by comparision on the surface.

    The thing is I am so used to coming across statements like "This world is my imagination, it is your imagination too.", "This apple that your holding doesnt exist" "Nothing around you is real, you think it is but it is not" etc. etc.

    And the very thing about it is, Most of these statements and arguments here in the west dont even stem from any sort of higher 'realization' or experience, but rather, it's just an appealing way to think for them within the contextual framework they apply for the universe.. and they dont for the most part have any good arguments to back it up.

    It's just vague statements as the examples I presented that can be easily misleading or misinterpreted, when one simply expressess them, but has no good reasoning as to how or why they came to such a conclusion.

    I'm just speaking generally on the Western Ideas as one could make the mistaking of comparing them with Dharma philosophy, which really might be nothing alike in CONTEXT.

    I know more about advaita then when i first came here, nothing is going to stop westerners from taking bits and pieces of indian philosophy here and there and just apply it to their own way of thinking, all the while rejecting everything else for them.

    So I cant say they are the same, but I have read elsewhere on the forum that advaita is an idealist school? If this is true, in what sense?

    So I am humbly ask for the wise on the forum, all our brains have different ways of mapping out reality in a neurological sense. When one says "the world is an illusion", many different things are going to come to mind for the receivers from the ideas and information they have been exposed and used to up to that point, far from the meaning or context of which it meant for you.

    If the word "illusion" is to be used as the appropriate metaphor, it's implications are vast on the average mind which can easily misinterpret the meaning and significance behind such a statement when it is left alone.
    Last edited by Spirit Seeker; 14 December 2013 at 10:52 AM.
    For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, none will suffice. ~Joseph Dunninger

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