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Thread: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

  1. #21
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Namaste SS,

    In simple way, as I have defined in earlier posts,

    Real = That which is eternal and is present at all times. OR that which is no non-existence.

    False = That which does not exist at any time.

    False (asatya) cannot be experienced and hence the word 'asatya' is used only to complete duality i.e. fill pair of opposites.

    MithyA = In between. That which is not eternal.

    There can be two possibilities

    1. The object is destroyed or of perishable nature, hence object after perishing leaves it's traces i.e. cloth burned by fire, reduces to ash, ashes are traces that once there was something.
    2. Object after negation, does not leave a trace - snake does not leave any trace when rope is realized nor does silver leave trace when sea shell is realized nor is desert appearing as water.

    So logically mithyA means illusion. But this contradicts our day-2-day perception. Hence there are 3 truths and it is said that this world is real from empherical POV and not from absolute POV.

    The mithyAtva (property of this world being illusion) is only realized in samadhi and not before and hence as I have said, just saying everything is illusion and not doing anything is just empty talk.

    The thing is that we are under ignorance and hence we see this (experience) this world. So efforts are to be mad to remove this ignorance or to transcend guNa-s, 3 states, 5 sheaths, etc. Since we are under ignorance, hence we have to accept this world as real, but at the same time, out attempts should be such that we cross the boundaries of guNa-s as our shruti-s teach.

    Only after realization we can make such statements. For contemplation purpose, Self Enquiry, chanting OM or do neti-neti, all this accepts duality in the beginning, else there cannot be any sadhana, but the laxyArtha of such sadhana is to rise above guNa-s to experience ultimate truth.

    So vAchyArtha is duality and talked in terms of duality.
    laxyArtha is non-duality.

    in short dual statements lead to non-duality.

    We Adi shankara had not accepted 3 levels of truths, then we could accuse him and advaita as that which can never be started and that everything is illusion (at all levels) and that there is no guru, not sahdhana, no creation, etc.

    But accepting 3 levels of truths makes advaita practical.

    OM
    Last edited by Amrut; 14 December 2013 at 11:07 AM. Reason: added last line
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  2. #22
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Vannakkam: For those of you who haven't seen this, it might be 'fun'.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KXidr0z1RY

    Aum Namasivaya
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 14 December 2013 at 02:40 PM.

  3. #23

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit Seeker View Post
    If the word "illusion" is to be used as the appropriate metaphor, it's implications are vast on the average mind which can easily misinterpret the meaning and significance behind such a statement when it is left alone.
    I agree. My take on this is that we have gone from a situation in which this was secret knowledge for initiates to help explain higher experiences to a situation in which this is taught to first year students of Hinduism as one of the basic tenets every Hindu is supposed to know and accept. It is bizarre and reversal of the tradition of Hinduism. In ancient religions, like Hinduism is, there was always an unfolding of knowledge in stages. The Celtic Druids had tree stages and the education of carefully selected initiates took many decades. Greece and Egypt had their mystery schools where advanced people could discover the final truth. All kept their higher knowledge secret.

    To me westerners looking for ultimate truth behave a bit like Indiana Jones, looking for the lost Sankara stones (Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom). In protestantism there is strong egalitarian thinking in which all knowledge should be shared. They hated the Catholic church for forbidding common people to read the bible. They saw this as a means to keep people backward and in a subservient position, which is not untrue. We are in the strange position that westerners study all other cultures in depth and then start telling those people what it is about. Protestants also have a very intellectual approach to religion, they do not believe in right action (dharm) or devotion (bhakti), but solely in right knowledge (scripture). They call that "sola scriptura" (Only scripture).

    I see people on forums constantly stating the Vedas are "authoritative". They use the Vedas like they are some kind of Bible on which a theology is based. The Vedas however are foremost a dharmic instrument. The hymns are not meant to be intellectually understood, but declaimed with the exact right pronunciation in rituals to bring about a harmony with the Gods and the universe. This is a practice, the Dharm of priests. Hindu knowledge is above all practical knowledge, even when it comes to enlightenment, for which many practical paths are developed. If it comes to philosophy Hinduism does not have one, but many coexisting schools of thought. Hinduism always celebrated this diversity and did not try to form a unified ideology.

    To me it looks like the first things westerners do when meeting Hinduism is to try form a universal theology that can encompass all Hindu traditions and all western traditions. Because westerners are indoctrinated with the idea that there can only be one truth. If there are two truths than they must be merged through the process of synthesis, leaving only one truth again. This is the heritage of the Greek philosophers. It led to a syncretic religion like Christianity, which is the synthesis of many cults. And this idea still rules all western knowledge whether science or religion. That is why western science can not accept subjective (personal) knowledge.

    I think even with the best intentions most westerners will understand Hinduism very differently. When a Westerner reads in Advaita philosophy that this world is an illusion, than for him this becomes the tenet of Hinduism. But in Hinduism that is only a perception that goes with a certain higher experience. It is not a universal law or something.

    I think on forums we see the rise of a kind of Hinduism in which the order is reversed, which is more of a theology, a belief in a universal God, than a dharmic religion. In which you do not improve through dharm and finaly go to a guru for the final stages after even more dharm, but one in which you start studying Hindu "basics" like "You are God" and "the world is maya".

    That is what I read when newbies in Hinduism start telling what they know. Like students they rehearse these lessons until they can comfortably wield them. Hinduism becomes a belief system based on these tenets. I think the video Eastern Mind gave is a funny, but recognizable parody on that.
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 16 December 2013 at 04:46 PM.

  4. #24
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    You are right and Reality is subject to your free will. Things are only there when they are observed in digital and finite form, but when not observed, matter or energy is in wave form/shapeless form/infinite form.

  5. #25

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Friends,

    The world only a figment of imagination and nothing more.
    To verify it for oneself, one has to start looking at it as a figment of imagination. Its like a "long dream or a city imagined in air" --> Yoga Vasishta.

    Being a product of our imagination, it appears as we see it. If I see it as real, it appears real. If I see it as an illusion, the reality wanes away!!

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    Friends,

    The world only a figment of imagination and nothing more.
    To verify it for oneself, one has to start looking at it as a figment of imagination. Its like a "long dream or a city imagined in air" --> Yoga Vasishta.

    Being a product of our imagination, it appears as we see it. If I see it as real, it appears real. If I see it as an illusion, the reality wanes away!!

    Love!
    Silence
    Vannakkam: One day I tried convincing my boss that the world was just one big illusion. The next day, which was payday, he asked me again what I thought. Then when he went to hand me the cheque, he tore it up right in front of me. "You're fired," he said. "In fact, you never worked here. It was all just one big illusion." Fortunately for me, my angry wife was an illusion too.

    Aum Namasivaya

  7. #27
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Namaste,
    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    The world only a figment of imagination and nothing more.
    Just dunk your head under water and keep it there for a couple of minutes. Let me know what you think of this world after that.

    Pranam.

  8. #28
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,

    Just dunk your head under water and keep it there for a couple of minutes. Let me know what you think of this world after that.

    Pranam.
    Vannakkam Believer et al: The other day I got to wondering why the advaita thing is so overblown here in the west, and seems to be rather misconstrued. My internet research lead me to this page http://davidgodman.org/interviews/rs2.shtml , basically an ode to Ramana Maharshi. It did a lot for me, in that it backed up many of my own suspicions. I highly recommend it to anyone seeking to discover or compare Advaita to what has become known as neo-Advaita. The page is in the form of an interview, and explains a ton. Hope you enjoy it. There are a couple of paragraphs in there that are spot-on.

    Aum Namasivaya

  9. #29

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

    "Advaita Vedanta[edit]
    Advaita is one of the six most-known Hindu philosophical systems, and literally means "non-duality". Its first great consolidator was Adi Shankaracharya, who continued the work of some of the Upanishadic teachers, and that of his teacher's teacher Gaudapada. By using various arguments, such as the analysis of the three states of experience—wakefulness, dream, and deep sleep, he established the singular reality of Brahman, in which Brahman, the universe and the Atman or the Self, were one and the same.
    One who sees everything as nothing but the Self, and the Self in everything one sees, such a seer withdraws from nothing. For the enlightened, all that exists is nothing but the Self, so how could any suffering or delusion continue for those who know this oneness?
    — Ishopanishad: sloka 6, 7
    The concept of the Self in the philosophy of Advaita, could be interpreted as solipsism. However, the transhuman, theological implications of the Self in Advaita protect it from true solipsism as is found in the west. Similarly, the Vedantic text Yogavasistha, escapes charge of solipsism because the real "I" is thought to be nothing but the absolute whole looked at through a particular unique point of interest.[17]
    Advaita is also thought to strongly diverge from solipsism in that, the former is a system of exploration of one's mind in order to finally understand the nature of the self and attain complete knowledge. The unity of existence is said to be directly experienced and understood at the end as a part of complete knowledge. On the other hand solipsism posits the non-existence of the external void right at the beginning, and says that no further inquiry is possible.[citation needed]"

    How do traditional advaitans feel being compared to western solipsism? I Truly feel they are nothing alike(What I learned of Advaita so far), I deal with these people all the time..
    For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, none will suffice. ~Joseph Dunninger

  10. #30
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam: One day I tried convincing my boss that the world was just one big illusion. The next day, which was payday, he asked me again what I thought. Then when he went to hand me the cheque, he tore it up right in front of me. "You're fired," he said. "In fact, you never worked here. It was all just one big illusion." Fortunately for me, my angry wife was an illusion too.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Vannakam

    I thought you are a good old retired guy, but you are 60 years young.

    I would have kept my boss under ignorance until I retired or wished to break up

    Aum Namasivaya
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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