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Thread: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

  1. #31

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam: One day I tried convincing my boss that the world was just one big illusion. The next day, which was payday, he asked me again what I thought. Then when he went to hand me the cheque, he tore it up right in front of me. "You're fired," he said. "In fact, you never worked here. It was all just one big illusion." Fortunately for me, my angry wife was an illusion too.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Dear Eastern Mind,


    Once in my dream you told me, my friend, this is a figment of your imagination! And I replied exactly what you did just now !

    and indeed my wife i saw in that dream ... who was angry with me ... was a figment of my imagination

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  2. #32

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,

    Just dunk your head under water and keep it there for a couple of minutes. Let me know what you think of this world after that.

    Pranam.
    Dear Believer,
    Once I had a dream that I was buried alive! I was suffering ... lack of oxygen ... dying really ... and then i said to myself "This is real... not a dream at all... very real... how stupid was I to think that this is only a figment of imagination!!!"!! ...

    and today I still say its a figment of imagination!!

    Anyways I would not try this experiment of yours, I would not try it now ... and even in my dream I would have said just this !! Somehow !

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  3. #33

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit Seeker View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

    "Advaita Vedanta[edit]
    Advaita is one of the six most-known Hindu philosophical systems, and literally means "non-duality". Its first great consolidator was Adi Shankaracharya, who continued the work of some of the Upanishadic teachers, and that of his teacher's teacher Gaudapada. By using various arguments, such as the analysis of the three states of experience—wakefulness, dream, and deep sleep, he established the singular reality of Brahman, in which Brahman, the universe and the Atman or the Self, were one and the same.
    One who sees everything as nothing but the Self, and the Self in everything one sees, such a seer withdraws from nothing. For the enlightened, all that exists is nothing but the Self, so how could any suffering or delusion continue for those who know this oneness?
    — Ishopanishad: sloka 6, 7
    The concept of the Self in the philosophy of Advaita, could be interpreted as solipsism. However, the transhuman, theological implications of the Self in Advaita protect it from true solipsism as is found in the west. Similarly, the Vedantic text Yogavasistha, escapes charge of solipsism because the real "I" is thought to be nothing but the absolute whole looked at through a particular unique point of interest.[17]
    Advaita is also thought to strongly diverge from solipsism in that, the former is a system of exploration of one's mind in order to finally understand the nature of the self and attain complete knowledge. The unity of existence is said to be directly experienced and understood at the end as a part of complete knowledge. On the other hand solipsism posits the non-existence of the external void right at the beginning, and says that no further inquiry is possible.[citation needed]"

    How do traditional advaitans feel being compared to western solipsism? I Truly feel they are nothing alike(What I learned of Advaita so far), I deal with these people all the time..
    Dear Spirit Seeker,
    I Like this question ... There are many facets in which it may be answered ...
    I'll take a simple thought experiment to explain ...
    suppose there are just two people [humans] in this world... and lets say one of us sees colors and the other does not.
    which is a disease [color blindness / hallucination] and which is not ?
    Do you perceive the person who sees the colors as hallucinating
    or do you see the person who does not see colors as suffering from color blindness ?
    Whats the way to distinguish ?

    Here is the point: a psychological aberration is something that "restricts" or "troubles" in practical sense. The person who sees the colors , if he starts to fear it and is afraid ... its a disease ... on the other hand if he is able to use his vision to easily distinguish fruits on a tree its a supernatural power!

    Same way...
    if this Knowledge that the world is a dream/unreal is forced upon him and he is not able to function normally ... its a disease ... a psychological problem.

    on the contrary if the same knowledge gives him the clarity to not "hold onto this transient world and see things in the right perspective" ... its liberation!!

    Without realizing that the world is no more than a figment of imagination ... liberation is not possible ...

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  4. #34

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    Friends,

    The world only a figment of imagination and nothing more.
    To verify it for oneself, one has to start looking at it as a figment of imagination. Its like a "long dream or a city imagined in air" --> Yoga Vasishta.

    Being a product of our imagination, it appears as we see it. If I see it as real, it appears real. If I see it as an illusion, the reality wanes away!!

    Love!
    Silence
    What the problem is here, is that it is brought as "the truth".

    There is no such all encompassing objective truth. The only real truth lies in subjective experience. But subjective experience is related to the level of consciousness. The level of consciousness can not be raised by believing in higher truth. Then one acquires the ideas without the true experience. That is like putting on the robe and crown of a king, without being a king. it is self-deceit. In Hinduism truth is always connected to experience and not a purely theoretical abstract entity like in the west. Hindus for instance say: "A truth that hurt can not be true". In the west it is the opposite. In my country we have sayings like: "The truth is hard" and "it is the painful truth". Because in Western (Greek) thinking truth was disconnected from experience.

    Truth is always relative to ones consciousness. In a higher consciousness, which only a few people on this planet have access too, Brahman can be experienced as truth. People like Ramakrishna were able to do this. If you can at will go to this higher state of consciousness, then you can say on your comeback, in this higher state/experience the normal worldly experience is an illusion. This truth only lasts as long as you are in this state. No longer. If people say: this world is an illusion. I say: Give me all your possessions, you do not need them anymore, but I still do. But they never do that, because they are just pretenders, who robed themselves with the shrouds of belief.

    Why are they so fanatic about this? Because through meditation or drugs or whatever they have tasted a higher experience for a short moment and now they think they are warped into this higher consciousness forever by the experience. Of course such an experience does have a lasting impact, but is does not turn the world into an illusion one can ignore. Ones desire to flee this world into higher reality is proof of the contrary and should be rejected. Why? Because Hinduism does not preach renunciation of this world but rather embracing this world seeing Brahman in every aspect of it. Those are two diametrically opposed ideas.

    How can this be? Because Hinduism teaches different paths for different kinds of people. It has different truths for different levels and sorts of consciousness. For a westerner this is impossible to grasp. The westerner is raised with the idea of ONE all encompassing truth. He thinks: God is the truth, the one truth. If you talk one way this moment and another way next, you are a liar, a deceiver. But Hindu gurus have no problem with that. To one person they say: You should meditate, meditation is bliss for you. To another they say: do not meditate, meditation is bad for you. Why? Because a good guru tells a subjective (personal) truth.

    So what we have on forums is lots of people that agree the world is illusion, and at other times tell us hat they have trouble paying the rent. If they lived in the consciousness the world is an illusion, the rent should not be problem. A real renunciate can live on alms. Why should he want a house? A house is an illusion. So these people dress up as enlightened beings, but they are still sufferers of the world. As Vivekananda called them: "they are beggars handing out the treasures of the world". The highest philosophical ideas they casually spread around to impress people, but also to convince people. Why are they so determined to convince others? Because they need to convince themselves! Because dressing up as king, still not fully convinces you, you are a king. You can only believe it if others complement you on it. That is the problem with beliefs and believers in general. They try so hard to convince others to convince themselves.

    And what does this remind us off? Lies. Lies are the illusions we try to convince ourselves of by rationalizing. The more we argue, the more arguments we find, the more we start to believe in our own lies. That is why the believer must herald his ideas. That is why they become such fanatic proselyters for their ideas. Would a person that is truly realized, start convincing the world? No, such people do the opposite, they rather withdraw from the world. Because in the world it is very hard to live in this higher experience for longer times. People will constantly draw you into their reality. So most realized gurus rather live seclusive and pass on their knowledge to one or a few on the threshold. You will not find them on forums handing out wisdom.

    Of course there are very advanced people who see it as the task to help the world. Take for instance Vivekanda, he was a great teacher, but he did not create an order where people were lifted to moksha. That is impossible. Those are fake gurus. He created an order to help people in their needs. Hindu knowledge is always practical and pragmatic, never purely theoretical as in the west. It is always an instrument of Dharm. This may offend people, but i would rather have a Hindu forum in which we would exchange the practical wisdom of Hinduism that far out philosophical ideas westerners are so attracted to, but help no one. I think the last is even against Hindu tradition. Shruti is not to meant to be read or discussed. The words and their sound are meant to be heard directly from a guru. And the guru determines whether he will convey it. So advaita texts, even the Gita are not to be handed out on forums, or be advertised for self-study. It only creates inflated ego's, which kid themselves they mastered higher knowledge. It does not do them or their environment any good.

    So lets get rid of all the "world is illusion/maya", the different states of God, the endless meaningless dribble about moksha. Lets stop turning Hinduism in an escapist theology or redemption theology. Hinduism is a Dharmic religion, it is directed at making life happier for all. It strives for harmony. It puts emphasis on experience. For 99.999999% of the people that is the experience in this world. Training large groups of unfit people for escapism is done to create religious soldiers. Whether you call it moksha or eternal heaven makes no difference. The essence is you say a better state is awaiting them. Mohammed told his warriors that they would fly directly to heaven and get forty virgins. That is moksha enough for most. Christian religious soldiers believe that fighting Gods wars is landing them in heaven/extasy too. It is this idea that lets debase people to blind servants that do the will of others in all kind of cults. They are told to keep their mind directed only at the salvation, while their leaders do the most unethical things and tell them to do unethical things for the highest cause.

    This world is not a hellhole. This world is the place of action. We can make this world into a place where we live happily through right action (dharm). Lots of traditional societies were able to do that. It is the salvation seekers that have given up hope that this is possible. This very negative ideology is hurting the world. The Gita was meant to be secret for good reason. No healthy society can be based on such ideas. We have to understand Krishna is not bringing one truth, but several for different groups. In nothing Krishna's own conduct remind us of a sannyasin. There never was a God that enjoyed life so much as Krishna. From childhood on he is the great enjoyer and spreader of joy, even more than Rama. But his example like that of Rama is all about dharm.

    What Krishna tells to Arjuna is only meant for Arjuna's ears. Arjuna is a warrior in a deep existential conflict. He has to do his duty but his true love for the world (ahimsa) is withholding him. To free him, Krishna tells only him to renounce the world and concentrate on him instead. For the western mind it is impossible to understand that a God would convey two different truths. The west is all about one truth. They will fight to the brink to get one truth imposed on all. That brings truth down to the masses. The one truth of the west therefor became the mediocre, life hating truth of salvation for all. Well if you want to speak of illusion, that is an illusion!
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 25 December 2013 at 10:47 AM.

  5. #35
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,

    Just dunk your head under water and keep it there for a couple of minutes. Let me know what you think of this world after that.

    Pranam.
    Namaste,

    Even then the 'I' will remain. Though it is a conditioned 'I' (Jiva) .I is the same good old friend

    This 'I" cannot be negated at any time, even after you die, you take birth and the process continues till one realizes the real 'I' - Brahman.

    Consciousness is one and the same and kAraNa sharira does not die with the death of body.

    Do you mean that 'I am body' ?

    Existence of 'I' is self evident. Without 'I', the first person, there is no 'you', the second person and 'he' the third person.

    We are just concerned with this first person 'I' and are eager to know - 'Who am I'. 'I' is not a point of light, nor body, nor jiva. 'I' is pure consciousness.

    When you dunk your head in water, the world outside water is non-existent for you

    Advaita is only for intelligent person, not for deha dhAri-s - don't mind ji

    Hari Bol
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    "Brahma satyam jagat mithya, jivo brahmaiva naparah"

    Brahman is real, the empirical world is an illusion, the noumenal (the world of Gods) world is real and everything in this noumenal world is Brahman. i.e. You, Gods and world are Brahman.

    "Tat tvam asi shvethakethu."

    Advaita supports Open Realism.

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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Avyaydya View Post
    snip snip
    Vannakkam: Thank you for one of the most elucidating posts on this matter I have ever seen. Bravo!

    Aum Namasivaya

  8. #38
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    hariḥ oá¹
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    I have read many of the posts above... for me , my studies and what I have been taught and experience is this:
    When you think you are of name and form this is what you see - name and form every where; the world is filled with diversity because of the differentiated ( departmentalized) consciousness/awareness one is engaged in. Yet when you no longer see yourself as individual name and form then then all of creation is the same - of wholeness, of fullness.

    There is no illusion only different frames of reference... this is not my discovery, but a basic premise of kaśmiri śaivism¹. The insight is simple - if ~all this~ is an illusion so is the fundamental base line or creator for all this i.e. śiva. Why so ? It is because ~all this~ appears in that (śiva). If ~all this~ is illusion so this that, and this postulate is not acceptable nor the experience of those that are realized beings on this good earth.

    iti Å›ivaá¹

    1. Within kaÅ›miri Å›aivism there are some differences ( not objections) to vedÄnta:

    • yoga in action (karma-yoga)
    • moká¹£a and its delineation
    • ignorance and its ( complete) elimination
    • who is fit to practice yoga
    • the notion of mÄyÄ - mÄyÄ is not a “villain†generating the illusion that the rope is a snake. MÄyÄ in Triká is the power that generates differences or duality.
    • what is pure and impure
    • the ultimate Reality as being dormant or active ( aware of It-Self)
    These are a few... now to develop these ideas to the fullest extent should be done in the uttara folder, as these are advanced in depth and breath of thinking.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #39

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Dear Yajvan ji,


    स्वप्नमाये यथा दृष्टे गन्धर्वनगरँ यथा।
    तथा विश्वमिदँ दृष्टँ वेदान्तेषु विचक्षणैः॥
    Gaudapada karika , vaitathya prakaranm.

    People who have the vision of vedanta consider this world to be nothing more than a dream or a magic city

    When you say Siva is all this ... you see changes here ... if Siva is changing then he becomes "Time Dependent" ... its a logical flaw ... no vedanta is required to dismiss such an assertion.

    if on the contrary you say that the changes that you see are not real, then you are actually saying that the changes are unreal.

    As you may be aware , such sentences as " all this is siva" are given with
    baadhaayaam saamaanaadhikaranyam where the saamaanaadhikaranya is to be understood in the sense of negation alone. Its similar to the sentence "sthaanurayam purusah, the person is but a stump of tree". This sentence is mean to correct an error in perception wherein a stump of a tree is mistaken for a person. We are not qualifying the word sthaanu with the word purusa or vice versa, The sentence negates the idea that it is the thief and what remains is the trunk of the tree alone.

    Similarly when one says " all this here is purusa", everything is swallowed or devoured and the purusa remains.
    The above quote is from mundaka upanishad of swami dayananda saraswati.

    Ribhu Gita says page after page that this world is like the horns of a hare ! Yoga vasishta / Tripura Rahasyam also speak the same language. Shankara says the same thing in vivekachudamani and other prakarana texts.

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  10. #40
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Namaste Yajvan ji,

    Those are really nice observations and surely these points must be separately discussed.

    The thing is that mAyA as Illusion is so much bombarded, that we, who are under ignorance, are not given any explanation as to how to remove ignorance, rise above mAyA and enter into formless.

    I feel, this aspect, the meditative aspect also needs to be discussed.

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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