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Thread: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

  1. #41
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post
    Namaste Yajvan ji,
    The thing is that mAyA as Illusion is so much bombarded, that we, who are under ignorance, are not given any explanation as to how to remove ignorance, rise above mAyA and enter into formless.

    I feel, this aspect, the meditative aspect also needs to be discussed.

    Hari OM
    Your observation has merit... I am of the opinion that this māyā is a bit over-rated, and it seems, much in vogue to discuss. As forementioned māyā is not a “villain”. Yet for some the notion of illusion is mesmerizing.

    What is this māyā ? It is rooted ( √ ) in mā or measuring and this 'yā' is restraining . Yet many say māyā is the notion of illusion. How are these two i.e. illusion and measuring/restraining , connected?

    Māyā is the illusion that the Infinite can be measured out or restrained. It is the idea that this Infinite Being that we experience as the universe ( and what it contains) is made of parts, finite items, zillions of them, but still finite , within boundaries. It is the boundless measured into the boundaries , this is the illusion of avidya ( ignorance).

    This has been used as a tool by the wise to help with ~framing~ what is worthy of pursuit and what is not.

    To rid one's self of this māyā is a bi-product or residual result found from the recognition ( re-cognition) of who we really are, our real nature.

    From here we come to how to do this. And that gets us to 'it all depends'. But depends on what ? Where we are at today. Where and how far has our development taken us ? One size does not fit all, so for one to continue to unfold it may just take a nudge, for others more tapas is required. And that leads us to the various practices we find in all the disciplines found in sanātana dharma ( some may call āra dharma ).


    iti śiva
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #42
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Namaste Yajvan ji,

    +1
    I fully agree with what you have said. oh and yes, mAyA is not villain.

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  3. #43

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Dear Yajvan ji,
    Can you please respond to my post [previous to this one], when you find time ?

    I read maya derives from ya - ma ... that which is NOT!



    If God is made of parts that disturbs other definitions where he is said to be part-less , changeless etc.

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  4. #44
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    Dear Yajvan ji,
    I read maya derives from ya - ma ... that which is NOT!

    If God is made of parts that disturbs other definitions where he is said to be part-less , changeless etc.
    The wise tell us this... This brahman is pūrṇa - fullness, plenty, abundance; wholeness; It is anāhata defined as unbeaten , not multiplied. It is another way of saying the 'wholeness' of Being. We are told it has the quality of ād vyāpana, meaning to go , pervade, or cover thoroughly.
    A more common word is viśva which = all-pervading or all-containing , omnipresent; this is the fundamental root of viṣṇu.
    And if we use the word śiva it is rooted in śī , 'in whom all things lie' , which meets with the definition of viśva.

    The wise also use the term satatoditam¹. It means that which has no pause, no break. This for me really captures the essence of this totality, the fullness or pūrṇa . It is break-less and unitary.

    So, this establishes the tenet that the Supreme is without parts, with no break or pause. Yet to us, to the human condition we experience diversity, breaks and pauses. This then is the notion of what I posted above:
    Māyā is the illusion that the Infinite can be measured out or restrained. It is the idea that this Infinite Being that we experience as the universe ( and what it contains) is made of parts, finite items, zillions of them, but still finite , within boundaries. It is the boundless measured into the boundaries , this is the illusion of avidya ( ignorance).
    It is as if this wholeness has parts, but it does not. Just as if we think we see the whole ice-berg sticking out of the water, when it does not. The totality of the ice-berg is both seen and unseen.


    re: ya-ma
    Many use this idea and I am fine with it... yet if one does some looking we find the following:
    yama -
    • act of checking or curbing , suppression , restraint
    • a twin , one of a pair or couple
    • it is also the ~symbol~ for '2'
    • it is also a name for the devata that presides over the pitṛ-s ; some too call dharmarāja ; also another name for saturn.
    We can see how some of these notions may apply to māyā :
    -> curbing or check the Supreme (as if) it can be constrained

    -> the symbol for '2' is another way of saying diversity - that is the diverse part of unity ,which gives us uni-verse ( or universe)

    When we look to the components:
    • ya can mean joining (union) or restraining (diversity); yet has these same definitions it also means to go away , withdraw , retire.
    • ma in its masculine gender means time. what is time? It is the measurement of eternity. So , see the connection (I hope)
    • ma in its female gender has many meanings e.g. light, mother, even death. Yet too it means to bind, and also to measure. Once again we see the connection. Yet too we see similar definitions for mā, add to it the following: to measure across , to measure (by any standard) , compare with.
    So we see how nicely + ( at the phoneme level) algins with mā +


    praṇām

    words
    satatoditam - If I look at this word as sat + a-tu + dita , it tells me that which really is (sat) + not (a) + to have authority (tu) + bound or divided (dita). Or that Reality that cannot be bound or divided
    Last edited by yajvan; 27 December 2013 at 06:28 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #45

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Dear Yajvan ji,
    Thank you!
    The moment we say "as if", we have already said that its an appearance without "reality" ! That is what we mean when we say the world is an illusion.

    BTW sir, I am not able to see the sanskrit texts you are writing , has it got to do with the browser configuration or some fonts ?

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  6. #46
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    Thumbs Up Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Umm... Hello to all... I hate it when philosophy boils down to language and that too when it gets hit like a tennis ball between two languages.... Can someone please explain to me what "exactly" maya is?

    According to me "illusion" is nothing but misperceived reality or wrong perception of an object that exists and the dictionary.com agrees with me. So, therefore for something to be misperceived it implies it definitely exists (not talking about form or appearance, just existence). 'cuz, we're perceiving it. "delusion" is the perfect word to describe pigment of imagination. Dreams are delusions and fantasies, not illusions. see below... it says it can be confused with illusion. I can never agree to something like "ultimately nothing is real". If nothing was real, anything can't exist, even this that we see, read and think. I feel that reality is like a mirage, not a sick joke of "nothing exists, or reality is false." If nothing exists, then even Brahman and this "I" program in this brain also don't exist.

    (I hate using the "I") The way I see it.... The world is an illusion, because my senses or my cognition or "I" fail to "look" at the world properly, maybe I'm not evolved enough or wise enough. Just because I can't make sense, doesn't mean it doesn't exist (dont exist "sounds like" buddhism -> am I wrong?). Everything does exist, we're not good enough to "look" and "recognize" it. When we are good enough, or wise enough nothing is an illusion.

    The way I see it.. God is the gene and I'm the expression, god is the program and I'm his function, he's the idea and i'm the result.... Can't really explain this feeling, (a bad analogy follows...) he's the anticlockwise motion and I'm the clockwise motion (You see from one side cyclone may be in anti clockwise and other way, the same is clockwise) like south and north pole at electron level, like ice and water. Come Maya, He's the world we see, if wisdom shines in us/me, back to being water.... Even this does not explain it! Just how shallow is language?



    Nice thread Sadhuji....



    illusion

    Use Illusion in a sentence
    il·lu·sion

    [ih-loo-zhuh[IMG]file:///C:\DOCUME~1\User18\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\02\clip_image002.gif[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:\DOCUME~1\User18\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\02\clip_image002.gif[/IMG]n] Show IPA
    noun
    1.
    something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality.
    2.
    the state or condition of being deceived; misapprehension.
    3.
    an instance of being deceived.
    4.
    Psychology . a perception, as of visual stimuli (optical illusion) that represents what is perceived in a way different from the way it is in reality.
    5.
    a very thin, delicate tulle of silk or nylon having a cobwebbed appearance, for trimmings, veilings, and the like.
    Relevant Questions
    What Is Illusion?
    What Does Illusion Mean?
    What Are Illusions?
    What Causes An Optical Illusion?
    Origin:
    1300–50; Middle English < Latin illūsiōn- (stem of illūsiō ) irony, mocking, equivalent to illūs ( us ) past participle of illūdere to mock, ridicule ( il- il-1 + lūd- play (see ludicrous) + -tus past participle suffix, with dt > s ) + -iōn- -ion

    Related forms
    il·lu·sioned, adjective

    Can be confused: allusion, delusion, elusion, hallucination, illusion (see synonym study at the current entry).

    Synonyms
    1. aberration, fantasy, chimera. illusion, hallucination, delusion refer to false perceptions or ideas. An illusion is a false mental image produced by misinterpretation of things that actually exist: A mirage is an illusion produced by reflection of light against the sky. A hallucination is a perception of a thing or quality that has no physical counterpart: Under the influence of LSD, Terry had hallucinations that the living-room floor was rippling. A delusion is a persistent false belief: A paranoiac has delusions of persecution.
    Dictionary.com Unabridged
    Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2013.
    Cite This Source
    |
    Link To illusion
    Collins
    World English Dictionary
    illusion (ɪˈluːʒən)

    n
    1.
    a false appearance or deceptive impression of reality: the mirror gives an illusion of depth
    2.
    a false or misleading perception or belief; delusion: he has the illusion that he is really clever
    3.
    psychol See also hallucination a perception that is not true to reality, having been altered subjectively in some way in the mind of the perceiver
    4.
    a very fine gauze or tulle used for trimmings, veils, etc

    [C14: from Latin illūsiō deceit, from illūdere; see illude ]
    I don't know who I am, nor what I am.
    I don't know what I need to know.
    I don't know who you are, nor what you are.
    All I know is that you love me, Oh Sarvathma.
    Lead me on the righteous path, so that I may reach you.

  7. #47
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by upsydownyupsy mv ss View Post
    Can someone please explain to me what "exactly" maya is?
    This has been done ( substantially) on this HDF site... May I suggest a search on the word maya and on māyā to begin.

    Note that maya does not = māyā in definition, but has been spelled like this through-out the HDF site.

    iti śiva



    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #48

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Friends,
    A few quotes from Tripura Rahasyam [that fit into the context]:

    Tripura rahasyam 13th chapter:

    स्वप्नवृक्षोऽपि तत्काले किँ न साधयते हितम्।
    पान्थानाँ किँ न हरति तापँ छायाप्रदानतः॥
    Are not the trees seen in dream useful in dream?
    Would they not provide shelter to a tiered person in dream?

    फलाद्यैः स्वप्नमर्त्यादीन्न तर्पयति किँ वद।
    स्वप्ने क्व बाधितः स्वाप्नः क्वास्थिरश्चोपलक्षितः।

    Or do they not give fruits to a hungry person in dream, please tell ?
    Can the objects of the dream be negated there ? Or can they be made to stay always ?

    अखिलँ बाधितँ जाग्रद्दशायामिति चेच्छृणु।
    जाग्रत्प्रपञ्चोऽपि सर्वः सुषुप्तौ किँ न बाधितः॥

    If you say that everything in the dream gets negated when one wakes up,
    isn't it true that even the waking state gets negated in deep sleep ?




    Its expressed with such a simplicity :

    Ribhu gita says :

    vakshye prapancha shunyayatvam sasha srngena sammitam
    sarva lokeshu durlabham savadhana mana srunu...

    chapter 8, ribhu gita:
    i shall tell you the total void ness of world, equivalent to the horns of a hare.
    this knowledge is rare to be found in all worlds, oh mind listen with alertness...

    idam prapancham yat kinchit, yat srunoti ca pashyati
    drshya rupam ca drk rupam sarvam sasha vishana vat!!

    this world, what ever little is heard or seen , with both the seen and the seer are only like the children of a barren women!



    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  9. #49
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    As forementioned māyā is not a “villain”. Yet for some the notion of illusion is mesmerizing.

    What is this māyā ? It is rooted ( √ ) in mā or measuring and this 'yā' is restraining . Yet many say māyā is the notion of illusion. How are these two i.e. illusion and measuring/restraining , connected?

    Māyā is the illusion that the Infinite can be measured out or restrained. It is the idea that this Infinite Being that we experience as the universe ( and what it contains) is made of parts, finite items, zillions of them, but still finite , within boundaries. It is the boundless measured into the boundaries , this is the illusion of avidya ( ignorance).
    If we look to this māyā it has much to do with the notion of creation, not just how we experience it or ~ see ~ it.
    In general we can organize the notion of creation into 3 groups:
    • ajāta siddhānta¹ - or the 'unborn' view ; there is no creation to speak of i.e. no birth, no death of the universe or of us.
    • vivarta siddhānta - or 'changing from one state to another' which is the vedāntic point of view of error , illusion , an apparent or illusory form
    • sṛṣṭi-dṛṣṭi siddhānta - or the creation (sṛṣṭi - letting go) of the universe (by the Supreme or by natural processes) before a seer or witness is observing (dṛṣṭi) its creation.
    The scientific community would support sṛṣṭi-dṛṣṭi siddhānta as the big bang idea.

    Ajāta siddhānta is supported by the great brahmaṛṣi gauḍapāda-ji ; he tells us the truth from his level of enlightenment:
    The supreme truth is this: there is no birth and no dissolution, no aspirant to liberation and no liberated, and no one who is in slavery
    (māṇdūkayakārikā, II, 32).

    This vivarta siddhānta view is sometimes 'pinned' to ādi śaṅkara-ji¹ due to this notion of māyā. But many times people read his work and do not complete śaṅkara-ji's thought; this is ramaṅa mahaṛṣi's view on the matter. We are told all this is brahman, the world is illusion (māyā) , therefore all is brahman. This last part has been conveniently left aside and we end up with the idea of māyāvāda as śaṅkara-ji's contribution to the world.

    Now my question for the astute HDF reader/thinker.... why even bring in the notion that the world is illusion or māyā. What contribution does it have for the adhikārin¹ or for that matter the paśu¹? Surely all the siddhānta-s could stand on their own merit without the need for māyā.

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • siddhānta - settled opinion; demonstrated conclusion of an argument ; any fixed or established or canonical text-book or received scientific treatise on any subject
      • often these 9 are called out: brahma-siddhānta , sūrya-siddhānta , soma-siddhānta , bṛhaspati-siddhānta , garga-siddhānta , nārada-siddhānta , parāśara-siddhānta , pulastya-siddhānta , vasiṣṭha-siddhānta ; or the following 5 , siddhāntas , pauliśa-siddhānta , romaka-siddhānta , vāsiṣṭha-siddhānta , śaura-siddhānta , and paitāmaha-siddhānta
    • Ādi Śaṅkara we know as Śaṅkara Bhagavatpāda.
      • ādi = first, beginning
      • Śaṅkara = śaṃkara = causing prosperity , auspicious , beneficent. This is another name for śiva or rudra.
      • Bhagavatpāda = Bhagavat+pāda bhagavat is glorious , illustrious , divine + pāda or pādāḥ is added to proper names or titles in token of respect. With this case pāda it is then a ray or beam of light (considered as the foot of a heavenly body).
      • Yet what is this 1st or beginning? He was the first Śaṅkarācārya¹ , as he set up the maţha-s (some write as mutt's, math's) across India.
    • adhikārin - 'fit for'; one who is fit/ready ripe for the revelation of the Self.
    • paśu - tethered animal ; another name the wise use for the ignorant.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #50
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    If we look to this māyā it has much to do with the notion of creation, not just how we experience it or ~ see ~ it.
    In general we can organize the notion of creation into 3 groups:

    • ajāta siddhānta¹ - or the 'unborn' view ; there is no creation to speak of i.e. no birth, no death of the universe or of us.
    • vivarta siddhānta - or 'changing from one state to another' which is the vedāntic point of view of error , illusion , an apparent or illusory form
    • sṛṣṭi-dṛṣṭi siddhānta - or the creation (sṛṣṭi - letting go) of the universe (by the Supreme or by natural processes) before a seer or witness is observing (dṛṣṭi) its creation.

    Within this group we can also add dṛṣṭi-sṛṣṭi siddhānta ... note that in sṛṣṭi-dṛṣṭi siddhānta creation comes forth and then there are people that see creation.
    In dṛṣṭi-sṛṣṭi siddhānta it is slightly different. Creation only occurs because of the seer or the perceiver. It comes forth because there is mind.
    What could be an example of this ? When one dreams. A whole world is created/perceived in the mind from ~nothing~ or mind-stuff one person has said.
    So there is a ~world~ due to one's mind. Note to that a name for ~world~ is loka. It is defined as the wide space or world (either the universe " or , any division of it);
    yet too loka is defined as 'the faculty of seeing , sight' or that which is seen. Hence the connection to loka comes about by one's perception and not the other way around.


    This point of view is less intuitive to many... we wish to grind out that there must be a creation occurring before 'i' can perceive it. I will let others argue/debate the point.

    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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