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Thread: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

  1. #51

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    om gurave namaḥ

    Namaste All,

    Thank you for these wonderful posts; they are extremely thought provoking, and as such I would like to respond with a few thoughts which have arisen in consequence.

    Yajvan Ji you have said:

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    ... why even bring in the notion that the world is illusion or māyā. What contribution does it have for the adhikārin� or for that matter the paśu�? Surely all the siddhānta-s could stand on their own merit without the need for māyā.
    Might this lead the paśu into this wonderful tradition of philosophy and knowledge; I think to a large extent, for me, it has been due to this notion. Providing an initial answer to any who are profoundly seeking, sincerely. This idea helps the thinker to begin a proses of separation; prakti from puruṣa; as he gradually begins to emerge from a state of differentiated knowledge in which he was previously enveloped. Thus giving weight to the very path that it is; to questioning ones existence; many would simply call out madness, thus seldom those who may dare.
    As such, it is māyā that forms a sheath or protective layer about the self, that it might incubate us, so as to reproduce the very same. How else would would we come to know of the nature of our own greater existence, when or our current nature is so limited and very relative?

    Now the paradox here is, to my mind, that māyā is her self māyā. A trick or illusion with out which this existence would not be; in effect She entices us to know her further; A process which of its self causes growth, upachaya, regulating its self through its own self recognition.
    The essential difference then, being that of awareness; As we recognise again, we return to being a part of the whole and our growth is then both concious and positive; through both day and night, ahorātram.
    With the awareness that we are in integral part of something much bigger than ourselves.

    Kind regards.
    Last edited by Mana; 15 January 2014 at 11:53 PM.

  2. #52

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Dear Yajvan ji,


    There can be three categories of objects:
    -- SAT, what IS and remains as it IS: trikalepi tishtati, it exists in all three periods of time without any change.

    --ASAT, that which is not there in the three periods of time -- without any iota of doubt. Like the horns of a hare. Or a barren women's children.

    --MITHYA: that which is not there but appears "as if " there. Like a Mirage water. There is no water body there. The water body seen there is really "ASAT" , but it appears as if its there. Like a palace imagined in dream. The palace is not there , but appears true. The Adhistana on which mithya is imaged up [like a snake seen on a rope, rope is the adhistana] is SAT.

    So Ignorace is to see MITHYA as SAT as something existing.
    Knowledge is to see MITHYA as ASAT. Or MITHYA as MITHYA . The changes become ASAT.

    Maya is the ignorance [or its cause ... the cause and affect have to be on the same plane]. So Maya belongs to category of MITHYA too!! Thats why I stressed on the meaning "YA - MA", what which is Not!

    Shankara wrote an entire panchakam called Maya Panchakam. !!

    Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi explained statement
    Brahma satyam jagan mithya jeevo brahmaiva na parah... he says:
    1. World is ASAT
    2. Brahman is SAT
    3. Brahman alone is all this

    which is to say the changes that we see belong to the category of MITHYA. Its to be understood as exactly equivalent to saying:
    1. The snake is unreal.
    2. Rope is real.
    3. Snake is nothing but the rope.

    which is to say that the rope is not Moving! If we reject [bhagatyaga lakshanam] the movement and potential to hiss of the snake ... and see what is its adhistanam ... its rope alone. So the snake is only maya kalpitha ... its mithya. its maya.


    ajata vada is the ultimate truth as it is. Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi was asked "Is there rebirth" and he replied "Find out if there is a birth in the first place" ! There is no birth, no death. So no question of Srishti . This is Ajata vada. Its just to say BRAHMAN Alone IS.

    Infact sristhi drishti vada is only given for people who are not able to understand or accept dristi sristhi vada.

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  3. #53
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Namaste,

    Why is mAyA talked too much?

    Since matured sadhakas are very rare and are generally in isolation and maun cannot be taught. You will have to feel it, it is not much focused. Teaching via maun is very supreme, as in the case of Bhagavan DakshaNaamurty, but very few can grasp it. It also requires presence of a Realized Guru. Most of the sadhakas are beginners and for them maayaa is taught. It's the newer ones that makes noise and so we find more talks about maayaa, where it is given importance. So initially to withdraw the senses, one is constantly reminded of maayaa, one should stay away from worldly objects, mentally disconnect from friends, family members, avoid them as poisons, avoid objects of senses as poison, etc. This produces vivek yukta vairagya. Once the mind becomes 100 % introvert, it's time to think of brahman and nothing else. Guru makes extrovert mind introvert, and Ishwara establishes introvert mind into heart (Atman, Brahman, source of everything – breath, mantra, thoughts and this world). No more bombarding of withdrawing of senses et al is done.

    As Yajvan ji has said, the verse Sarvam Khalu-idam Brahman is often forgotten.

    Sri Ramana Maharshi has said this here

    Either by experiencing oneness with everything and then transcending it to enter into non-duality OR by first entering into non-duality neglecting everything and then experiencing the oneness with everything.

    Paramhansa Hariharananda says, either by disassociating or by integrating 5 sheaths, you attain immortality.

    Once your mind is rooted in something very deep, then thoughts, etc cannot be influence you. You do not need to think of it as mAyA or as an illusion. OM or something else, that is very deep, the root of all, uproots everything by itself and I, as an individual, have no role in it. I feel as if the source of all is waiting for me, but I am not ready yet.

    Illusion, etc is only in the beginning. Later there is no need to think about it. It is something I cannot explain, but I have seen the power of this force. It has the power to uproot any emotions, desires (vAsanA-s) from root in a flash. This force, which does not have any shape, can cure the incurable ailments. I feel that the saints rooted in this infinite source can bring peace to the depressed person. the power is such that nothing can stand in front of it.

    From within, you become very soft as ego is getting destroyed, but when dealing in samsAra, we have to adopt duality and be humble. I cannot say, I, as Brahman, am saying this. So we accept Ishvara and even surrender praise, complain, and do salutations to the Lord, Narayana, as he is the one who is the sustainer, or say, in general, to the omnipresent entity. After the desires are uprooted, there is profound peace and bliss. You are literally bathing in deep peace and bliss, and the intensity is such that material happiness and material joy is no match against this nijAnanda.

    Also the emotions remain, and you may get angry, but the anger fades away fast, the more you stay rooted in the source, faster you reset yourself. If you manage to be rooted in day time, well, nothing can disturb your peace


    Hari OM
    Last edited by Amrut; 13 January 2014 at 02:12 AM.
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  4. #54

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    If Maya was not required to be discussed: shankara would not have written a maya panchakam !

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  5. #55
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    If Maya was not required to be discussed: shankara would not have written a maya panchakam !

    Love!
    Silence
    He has written many stotra-s. Can all be applied practically by one person throughout the life? they are for different people in different level of consciousness or say in different stages of evaluation.

    adhikAra bheda is important, but it looks like you do not ascribe to this view

    Discussing about mAyA is imp for beginners. What happens to vivarta vAda when one is taught ajata vAda. Or say, if ajAta vAda is taught from beginning and nothing else, what will be the case ....

    Silent Love! - radiant, cool, peaceful, unperturbed, anand born out of vairAgya.

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  6. #56

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Dear Indiaspirituality Amrut ji,

    I appreciate your intention in the post. But when you say :

    they are for different people in different level of consciousness or say in different stages of evaluation.
    Are you telling this about yourself or about others ?
    If its about others its not correct to judge others.
    If its about yourself : When a budding scientist thinks "I cannot think originally like a Feynman", he becomes a non-scientist. Have faith in yourself ! Thats the most fundamental point to understand. We often condemn ourselves to mediocrity by delving upon such ideas. This is my view. This Truth has to be understood carefully and anyone who is interested in it can understand.

    The Truth has to be presented to all... let those that can take take it. And those that cannot will obviously not accept it. Even if a few people cannot live it out, the Truth does not change, isnt it ?

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  7. #57

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Finally,
    This point of Yajvan ji:

    Surely all the siddhānta-s could stand on their own merit without the need for māyā.
    Is not true.


    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  8. #58
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Our āgama-s & śāstra-s proclaim brahman is the true, the real, reality. Our upaniṣad-s proclaim I am that, all this is that. Nothing is other then that.
    How then can any thing ( including this whole creation) be something other then that ?

    For those entwined in tripuṭā ( the 3's ) let them bathe in this māyā , as they have (once again) mistaken a diamond for a piece of broken glass.

    Even with the application of the ointment of knowledge, they continue to think , there is brahman and there is 'me'... here in lies the problem.

    iti śiva
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #59

    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Dear Yajvan ji,

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Our āgama-s & śāstra-s proclaim brahman is the true, the real, reality. Our upaniṣad-s proclaim I am that, all this is that. Nothing is other then that.
    How then can any thing ( including this whole creation) be something other then that ?

    For those entwined in tripuṭā ( the 3's ) let them bathe in this māyā , as they have (once again) mistaken a diamond for a piece of broken glass.

    Even with the application of the ointment of knowledge, they continue to think , there is brahman and there is 'me'... here in lies the problem.

    iti śiva

    So where is the problem ? The concept of Maya is used to establish that Brahman alone IS! So shastras say Brahman alone IS and the teaching is to reject anything "seen" as other than Brahman as Maya - Ya Ma, that which is Not!
    As even ... Rope Alone IS, but i see a snake... so the "snake is maya... that which is not! or an effect of maya ... what ever!" !
    so its at a different level that the concept of Maya is taught.

    Infact if Brahman alone IS, why even teach or present this Truth ? Brahman has no confusion !!

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  10. #60
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    Re: the world is an illusion, but its real enough

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    Dear Indiaspirituality Amrut ji,

    I appreciate your intention in the post. But when you say :



    Are you telling this about yourself or about others ?
    If its about others its not correct to judge others.
    If its about yourself : When a budding scientist thinks "I cannot think originally like a Feynman", he becomes a non-scientist. Have faith in yourself ! Thats the most fundamental point to understand. We often condemn ourselves to mediocrity by delving upon such ideas. This is my view. This Truth has to be understood carefully and anyone who is interested in it can understand.

    The Truth has to be presented to all... let those that can take take it. And those that cannot will obviously not accept it. Even if a few people cannot live it out, the Truth does not change, isnt it ?

    Love!
    Silence
    Namaste

    I know you do not accept adhikAra bheda

    Truth does not change, but when the road has many turns, you simply cannot talk all the way to destination. so give step by step instructions, which makes it easy for the traveller.

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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