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Thread: Hare Krsna!

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    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    "The two scriptural quotes you have provided do not address caste/origin in terms of them exclaiming that questioning a Vaishnava in terms of caste, race, origin, etc. is aparAdha/violation."

    The quotes are very plain in what they state: 1. "The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts."

    EVERYONE, irrespective of background, belongs to God/Krsna.

    2. "
    When a person is admitted into Vishnu's family, he is called a Vaishnava."

    Madai and Jagai, both born brahmins ate beef and intoxicated with alcohol could abuse an illustrious personality such as Lord Nityananda prabhu. In such a case, the lesson is clear the punya of past actions and birth only carry one so far... personal choices can negatively impact one's spirituality. The other lesson is found in personality such as Haridas Thakurji who was born a Muslim, but became a holy Vaishnava. The karma accrued from mleccha upbringing is elevated and blessed by choosing conscientiously to follow dharma and chant the Holy Names of our Lord.


    When a person becomes a Vaishnava... he is acceptable to the Lord. If a person renounces the very definition of a Vaishnava by bad actions, regardless of merits of birth and upbringing, he is not acceptable to the Lord. If someone presents as a Vaishnava, and not with contemptible behaviors, what does it matter their background, race, caste or anything? Such a person belongs to Lord.

    I did not wish to delve into the condition of aparadh, nor to prove a Court case regarding it. It seemed enough to bring it to attention that rejecting a Vaishnava or pointing out their cultural, racial, caste background is heading towards Vaishnava aparadh. I have read a few of this prabhu's posts and seen the contempt. For this reason I made the comment, so as NOT to lead the conversation into contempt for a person's background and referred to positive scriptural assertions of the merit of a Vaishnava and a human being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    It would be intellectually honest to mention the mere fact that the above is an opinionated insight derived from opinionated commentaries upon opinionated commentaries.
    I have not asserted any opinion. I have no interest in asserting any opinion on the scriptures, hence my reply. To the best of my ability I try to conform to scriptural teachings.

    It is also intellectually honest to admit this forum is rather contemptuous towards members of the Hare Krsna movement... hence the reason for my appearance here. It is my intention only to clarify what I perceive as misunderstandings. But if a person has degenerated to a level of hatred or other strong aversion, I will not succeed in changing his mind. Neither will I degenerate into any fighting over spiritual subjects, when the purpose of spirituality is to praise the Divine and not ourselves, and to taste the LOVE and BLISS of Divine presence and act with mercy towards one another.

    We do not know what difficulties a person encounters in their life, whether they are having a surgery soon, or if a loved one is disabled. We don't know any of the conditions of life of the people we meet. But if we fail to share with them the blessings of spiritual sadhana and the peace of sadhu sanga, then I think we have missed the boat.

    My sincerest dandavat pranams to you.
    uttama hañā vaiṣṇava habe nirabhimāna
    jīve sammāna dibe jāni' 'kṛṣṇa'-adhiṣṭhāna

    "Although a Vaiṣṇava is a most exalted person, he is prideless and gives
    all respect to everyone, knowing everyone to be the resting place of Kṛṣṇa."
    -Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 20.25

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    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Namaste Devi Dasi

    What a nice member name! It brings back memories of the 1970s and a wonderful Hindu who was American who authored a devotional song IN ENGLISH that was called "Devi Dasi" and he would play guitar and sing this and other very nice Hindu songs both in English, Sanskrit, Hindi, Bengali.

    In one way, you remind me of my daughter. My wife is Bengali-Gujarati.

    I hope everything goes well for you on this forum, you seem to know a lot and I am sure I will seek a question once in a while.

    So you are a devotee of Krishna. Let me share my favorite artwork of Krsna by Raja Ravi Varma. He is one of my favorite artists, I sure you will recognize it as it was repainted by ISKCON, but this is the original:



    "Your ever well wisher"

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Namaste Sudas Paijavana and Devi Dasi
    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    The two scriptural quotes you have provided do not address caste/origin in terms of them exclaiming that questioning a Vaishnava in terms of caste, race, origin, etc. is aparAdha/violation.
    Actually it is a kind of violation. In the Padma Purāṇa it is said:

    arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhir
    viṣṇor vā vaiṣṇavānāṁ kali-mala-mathane pāda-tīrthe 'mbu-buddhiḥ
    śrī-viṣṇor nāmni mantre sakala-kaluṣa-he śabda-sāmānya-buddhir
    viṣṇau sarveśvareśe tad-itara-sama-dhīr yasya vā nārakī saḥ

    One who thinks that the worshipable Deity in the temple is made of wood or stone, one who sees a Vaiṣṇava guru as an ordinary human being, or one who materially conceives of a Vaiṣṇava as belonging to a particular caste is nārakī, a resident of hell.

    The position of a Vaishnava is above all varnas. Obviously one who thinks that such a devotee of the Lord is a mleccha or a shudra has a hellish mentality (nārakī).

    I've already mentioned that in "Misunderstandings - VAD Threads". There I also mentioned Lord Mahesvara's words from Mahabharata:

    "In my opinion, if pious activities and good character are found in a sudra, it should be understood that he is better than a brahmana.
    Birth, purificatory processes, study of the Vedas, and good birth are not the criterion for being a brahmana. The only criterion is one's behavior."

    Here we have "he is better than a brahmana". Is there any varna higher than brahmana? No, there is no varna higher than brahmana, but there is someone even higher than a brahmana according to this words of Lord Mahesvara! This means that someone who is pious and of good character can be higher than all varnas! Guess who this person might be?

    --------------------------------

    Namaste Devi Dasi

    Welcome to HDF.


    regards

  4. #4

    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Pranam-s, Jijnasa:

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Namaste Sudas Paijavana and Devi Dasi
    Actually it is a kind of violation. In the Padma Purāṇa it is said...
    Now, wouldn't it have been easier to quote the Padma PurANa instead of the other previous quotes? The one quoted by you does address it as a violation while the scriptural quotes by DD do not.

    Guess who this person might be?
    Spock?

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    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Namaste h(luv)k

    A mlechha ( non-hindus) are not allowed to worship krishna. Only hindus twice born ( bramhana, kshatriya, vaishya) are elligible to worship krishna by vedic, tantrik and mixed way
    Frankly, this isn't appropriate in an "introductions" thread. Someone, who is obviously an advanced devotee, comes to the form, who happens to worship Krishna, and you have to startup with this type of behavior? We do not know you from a hole in the wall as far as so-called "restrictions", you are just a member of a forum with no background we know of (as far as I know you could be a murderer or anything, on meds for psychotic lapses, a chandala, anything who knows?) and while I appreciate your ideas on Brahman and Adwaita, I am a "dualist" and I appreciate the wisdom of many in the Family of Hinduism and especially new guests such as Devi Dasi to the forum. Can't you just lighten up on the mleecha stuff and let others enjoy what new members introduce? Frankly, you now make zero sense to me, how can you call yourself an adwaitan adherent of Brahman, tell me Brahman is everywhere (and thus Krsna is everywhere, is that what you say?) and then worship of Krishna (be it Vedic in authority or chanting) cannot be everywhere? It makes no sense to limit the world IMHO. But just treat guests like a Hindu would, that is part of Hinduism too.
    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    Pranam-s, Jijnasa:

    Now, wouldn't it have been easier to quote the Padma PurANa instead of the other previous quotes? The one quoted by you does address it as a violation while the scriptural quotes by DD do not.
    Unfortunately my posts are under moderation and there is a time lapse in when they appear, one at least did not appear, and I also cannot make corrections or read them over.

    I stated already, and now the post has come through, there was a very specific purpose behind the scriptures cited which I wanted to convey, of a positive nature regarding that the humanity itself belongs to God/Krsna, and that humanity can uplift itself by worship of God/Krsna, and not to delve into the matter of aparadh directly, which apparently is your interest.

    Hare Krsna.
    uttama hañā vaiṣṇava habe nirabhimāna
    jīve sammāna dibe jāni' 'kṛṣṇa'-adhiṣṭhāna

    "Although a Vaiṣṇava is a most exalted person, he is prideless and gives
    all respect to everyone, knowing everyone to be the resting place of Kṛṣṇa."
    -Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 20.25

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    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Very Surprising and also harsh untruth!

    Vaishnava is beyond the social caste classification meaning he/she is now just a devotee! Brahmana is a social caste and i am not sure why it hurts when some of them who does not even understand what a "Devotee" class is but keep their 'pride' of being just a social class.

    The first and most revered SriVaishnava Alwar is not a Brahmana by birth and there are so many non social class Brahmana vaishnavas in that tradition.
    The Ramanandi vaishnavas are not Brahamana's by birth and so many great vaishnavas appeared in that tradition who are not Brahamana by birth.
    The great DasaKoota of Madhva tradition had so many great personalities like KanakaDasa who are not Brahmana by birth.

    I still wonder, who are you against or what are you against? Just wearing another thread but not living and practicing the life style of a brahmana will not make you a brahmana. Someone who call himself a "Doctor" but never meet patients, do not know what medicines or medical treatments are available but always stay in the bar, clubs etc. all the time other than sleep will not be considered a Doctor by profession but just someone who secured a degree!" There is no point in arguing with such doctors about their "Doctorship"!

    Vaishnava worships only Vishnu and Lord Vishnu is present everywhere and that truth is what makes a vaishnava worship everyone and everything! ( SamaDarshana - meaning a vaishnava will treat a Brahmana and others equally including a dog eater - even the insentient). It will be Ego of a person who assumed he is first class Brahmana so the worship from a vaishnava is meant for his social class but that's not the fact and such reverence, honor and respect is only to those who already shed this ego and surrendered their social life as well for the activities of Lord 24 hrs a day 365 days a year for their entire life time with no other business in their mind and heart. ( and such are already a vaishnava - A full time Bank Manager or IT professional working in the software industry cannot claim they are Vaishnava's as their social duty is different and such person by the standards of VarnAsrama, will not be considered a Brahmana. But, our pride is bigger than VarnAsrama and we don't want to give up this pride but gave up everything else that a Brahmana has to posses without compromise but argue that such Brahmana are worshippable etc. Practical life, economical requirement etc and change of social setup are good reasons but as much as the expectation is that we should admit and agree, the compromise of not being living the life of a Brahmana has also to be accepted and agreed with out pride.)

    Its not a joke a surrendered Vaishnava is higher than a social class and spiritual class is always higher than your temporary social designation. It is intelligent and wise to understand such simple differences and meanings. Same time, a Vaishnava considers himself/herself lowest of low and with utmost modesty and this is the mood and characteristic of a Vaishnava. (Just like how a Brahmana have to exhibit the Brahamana Lakshna, a Vaishnava is not mere label and they do have to exhibit such modesty, total surrender to Lord Vishnu and utmost respect for everyone else). Anything contrary to this is not considered a Vaishnava and just carrying a japaMala or renaming yourself with some Dasa/Dasi will not make you any vaishnava unless you practice the life style of a Vaishnava.

    Hare Krshna

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    Thumbs Down Re: Hare Krsna!

    Namaste , grames and devidasi

    I didn’t say Krishna is not lord of all . I ONLY said about worship.
    Hindu sanatana dharma is the complete science of self.It is not just a culture.


    Hindu means the one who follows veda and who is born in four varnas ie.bramhan ,Kshatriya ,vaishya and shudra .There are three compulsory things which should be considered to be called as a hindu. 1) he should be born in bharatavarsha. 2)He should be born in bramhana ,kshatriya ,vaishya or shudra families. 3)he should be follower of veda or vedic scriptures.
    Our scriptures support varna by birth only . Karma and guna are the sub factors of birth.Because karma and guna are entirely dependant on birth. Birth is not just an ordinary thing . With birth ,you take all your previous karma and destiny. From this it is decided in which varna you will be born ,whether in bramhan,Kshatriya or vaishya OR in mlechhas . And it is well known fact written in scriptures that birth in hindu family (bramhana , Kshatriya) is the highest .Bramana ,vaishya and Kshatriya are very close to the supreme feet of Vishnu.
    In Mahabharata , there is an incident. Karana who was very noble ,went to the school of drona to acquire dhanurvidya .But drona neglected him . Because guru can only give the vidya to those who are born in bramhana and Kshatriya varna. karna was born by impure birth . Karna was born to a Kshatriya mother but raised as the son of a charioteer, or lower class of Kshatriyas. That’s why drona rejected him as he has not born in bramhana or Kshatriya varna . Karna has all the qualities of Kshatriya , then why dronacharya rejected him ? It’s a birth only.

    “vipro rajanya vaishyo cha harehe praptaha padantikam , shroten janmanathapi muhyantyamnayavadinah “ (BP 11.2.5)


    Meaning:Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are very near Shri Hari’s feet by virtue of their birth and Vedic ceremonies, yet they are misguided by wrong interpretation of Vedas about the fruits of actions.

    Who are twice born, i.e. Brahmins, Kshatriyas and merchant class are normally turned towards Shri Hari because of their initiation to Gayatri mantras etc., They are really of high rank because of their birth.

    Actually these are the very Brahmins, who have the right for thread ceremony and Gayatri Mantra. They are supposed to have great interest in the worship of Hari, and these are the great persons by surrendering to whose feet, it is possible to meet the God Himself VERY EASILY. But SOME Brahmins become proud of their Vedic knowledge, and they are deceived by the illusion because of that pride.


    “yada svanigamenoktam …….tanni bodha me (BP 11.27.8)

    Meaning : First of all one should become a twice born (dvija) according to his veda (shastra vidhi ) ,then with faith and devotion ,how he should worship me ,I tell you ,listen now .

    The Brahmins, the Kshatriyas and the Vaishyas are the three castes for which thread-ceremony is prescribed in the scriptures.
    The Brahmins observe this ceremony in the eighth year of life. The Kshatriyas are authorized to do thread ceremony at the 12 year of life, and Vaishyas are authorized to do this at the 16t h year of age.

    A thread-ceremony done with the advice of Gayatri-mantra, is the 2th
    birth of that boy. It is called Savitri-birth. These three castes are twice born, and, therefore, they are eligible and authorized to worship krishna according to the Vedic method.


    So please don’t put your personal claims about varna.This is our hindu-vedic tradtion .We hindus are protectors of veda and vedic traditions .It’s our first duty . So we know what we are and what is veda and its ancient tradions.

    We don’t wana sacrifice our sacred varnashrama dharma and other vedic tradions just because of westerner’s and pseudo hindu’s mindsets.

    Don’t alter our vedic tradictions which are being followed from ancient time. There was a prediction that mlechhas will try to destroy and alter hindu dharma according to their thinking and they will be the cause of end of hindu vedic dharma in kaliyuga . and it is happening now. No doubt ,its sure that vedic dharma will get completely collapsed in the flow of time of this kaliyuga. But we won’t give up the duty of saving vedic dharma.Because we know that hindu dharma is the eternal dharma and Vishnu is the protector of it.
    Becasuse , we know that Vishnu himself is going to come at the end of kaliyuga to protect hindus and hindu vedic dharma. He will be born in hindu bramhana family in shambala ,small village ,which is predicted in south india .He will kill all shudra(mlechha) kings. The world will again fill with the fragnace of purity . He will become the protector of hindu bramhanas .Because bramhanas are dearest for Vishnu than his own self.

    Not most ; all avataras of Vishnu are born only in bharata .Vishnu doesn’t take avatara in impure nations where there is no worship of bramhanas and cows. Remember this ! Every avatara of Vishnu is born in hindu vedic families ie either in bramhana , Kshatriya or vaishya . The recent complete incarnation of mahavishnu , Krishna , was in vaishya varna. The last incarnation ,kalki will be in bramhana family.In every human avataras , Vishnu is hindu only .Though he is all pervading bramhan , he acts as an ideal hindu. Though his real nature is atmaroopa , he appears in human form .But his essential formless nature doesn’t get tainted. See the greatness of bramhan ! Although he is all pervading , ignorant people see him only in vaikuntha. Although he is all pervading , ignorant people think that Krishna has taken avatara .

    The birth, lila and disappearance of the Supreme Lord as human being, to be a mere acting by the power of His Maya, which is potency to delude people as that of a dramatic performer. Having created this Universe by Himself from His own existence, and having entered it as its inner controller sported in it and having withdrawn from it into Himself at the end, (at final dissolution) and retired, Surely He is always in his atmaroopa. (BP 11.31.11)

    His birth in the race of Yadavas was nothing more than a reflection in a mirror, and just like the movements of the reflections in the mirror, He performed all his miraculous feats.
    If we put away the mirror, the reflection disappears. Similarly the seemingly happening of lilas ,death or passing away of the Lord was also an illusion, and not Reality.
    A dramatic performer dons the dresses according to the role which he has to play and takes out the dresses when the role is over; but the actor does not die when the role is ended.
    Similar to this was the incarnation of Shri Krishna.
    Though Shri Krishna appeared in the Yadava race, He was untouched by all limitations of the body ie form, and actions. Though He appeared, lived and disappeared, He was eternally free, what wonder is there that gods like shankara were surprised by His disappearance?
    The Lord brings into existence the world without any help from anybody. He protects it by His own power , what is protected , is only he and he destroys it when time comes, but remains as he is.
    This power of the Lord is very evident to us. He acts but remains unaffected by those lila, and remains in His eternal Free State which is bramhan beyond vyakta and avyakta.
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 29 November 2013 at 08:25 PM.

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    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Hi.,

    This is very unscientific and also unvedic under the label of vedic. First of all, Vedic life system advises strongly to follow the Acharya's and it is the cult of new age where everyone is a guru and define their own system of following whatever they believe but package it and sell it under the label of veda, vedic life etc. The known acharyas from all the different authentic schools condemn the practice of Varna by birth especially in the Bhakthi schools. But, still there are short sighted demons who put themselves above their acharyas and make the spiritual life style as their proprietary. Where were they when the VarnAshrama dharma is completely broken and what are you upholding now when there is no more VarnAshrama? Show me bunch of Brahmana's who knows four veda or one fully and also understood the actual purpose of meaning of what they have known? Man, with few tricks, piece of saffron cloth and a big beard you can make merry and create a big crowd falling at your feet in the name of spiritual life and i am sure there are millions of so called "Brahmana" by birth in such following who refuse to even do a single pooja at their house for their very own family God. Many families have replaced Krshna with some Babas, Anandas & Saraswati's and this is the gift of their "Birth"? Many so called noble birth happily claim there is no God but you are God and i am God and everyone is God! Those who are faithful and remain in the traditional following are victimized by another set of what you call 'hindus with mere pride but no wisdom" and not allowed to open the doors for fellow human to grow in their spiritual progress.

    Your very own message is so garbled and it is sad that, majority of the people who gets their birth in India automatically push their life time to the past yug and qualify their births alone as noble. What about the very same declaring in Kali Yug, everyone gets birth as "Sudra" only? Brushing it aside for the comfort of self pride?

    For Krshna, devotees are nearer and also the one who deliver his varna dharma be it even a chandala or outcaste. Varna by no means is by birth and there is another term for that which is most twisted and misunderstood and misguided term called "Jati". Varna is social occupation ( not "birth" - varna simply means color) and it is totally understandable that getting birth in to a noble family speeds up your spiritual journey and nothing more than that as in qualification, rights or exclusive ownership. (Such birth is noble but does not stop a Prahalada to earn the love of Nrashima even though he is son of a demon).

    Since, you are talking about the practice of Dvapara and before, i wonder whether you are in touch with the current time and life standards of Kali Yug! No one can classify them as the VarnAshra varnas anymore and the "Jati" is the only remainder in the age of Kali and the only left over varna is "Sudra".

    Looking at your interpretation of Krshna and His leela, it is so obvious that birth is an hindrance to the true devotional service and also explains why great Bhakthi saints longed to get birth in the "Sudra" varna even though they were born to Brahmin families. (The Jati). At least, follow his advice and He is lord of all automatically means, everyone can worship Him! Will everyone worship Him? Thats the puzzle!

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    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Hi.,
    Your very own message is so garbled and it is sad that, majority of the people who gets their birth in India automatically push their life time to the past yug and qualify their births alone as noble. What about the very same declaring in Kali Yug, everyone gets birth as "Sudra" only? Brushing it aside for the comfort of self pride?
    What else can you expect from a person whose AcArya said the following in his brahmasUtrabhAShyam:

    इतश्च न शूद्रस्याधिकारः।
    यदस्य स्मृतेः श्रवणाध्ययनार्थप्रतिषेधो भवति।
    वेदश्रवणप्रतिषेधो वेदाध्ययनप्रतिषेधस्तदर्थानानुष्ठानयोश्चप्रतिषेधः शूद्रस्य स्मर्यते।
    श्रवणप्रतिषेधस्तावत्'अथास्य वेदमुपशृण्वतस्त्रपुजतुभ्यां श्रोत्रप्रपूरणम्'इति।
    पद्युह वा एतत् श्मशानं यच्चूद्रस्तस्माच्चूद्रेसमीपे नाध्येतव्यम्' इति च।
    अत एवाध्ययनप्रतिषेधः।
    यस्य हि समतीपेऽपि नाध्येतव्य भवति स कथमश्रुतमधीयीत।
    भवति च वेदोच्चारणे जिह्वाच्चेदो धारणे शरीरभेद इति।
    अत एव चार्थादर्थज्ञानानुष्ठानयोः प्रतिषेधो भवति'न शूद्राय मतिं दद्यात्'इति॥१.३.३८॥

    Transliteration:
    itashca na shUdrasyAdhikAraH|
    yadasya smR^iteH shravaNAdhyayanArthapratiShedho bhavati|
    vedashravaNapratiShedho vedAdhyayanapratiShedhastadarthAnAnuShThAnayoshcapratiShedhaH shUdrasya smaryate|
    shravaNapratiShedhastAvat'athAsya vedamupashR^iNvatastrapujatubhyAM shrotraprapUraNam'iti|
    padyuha vA etat shmashAnaM yacchUdrastasmAcchUdresamIpe nAdhyetavyam' iti ca|
    ata evAdhyayanapratiShedhaH|
    yasya hi samatIpe.api nAdhyetavya bhavati sa kathamashrutamadhIyIta|
    bhavati ca vedoccAraNe jihvAcchedo dhAraNe sharIrabheda iti|
    ata eva cArthAdarthaj~nAnAnuShThAnayoH pratiShedho bhavati'na shUdrAya matiM dadyAt'iti||1.3.38||

    I guess Hinduism<loves>kR^iShNa should pour tin and rubber (or lac) down my ear[s] (since I wasn't born in bhArat). I'm sure it would make Adi sha~Nkara proud...
    Last edited by Jaskaran Singh; 29 November 2013 at 07:57 PM.
    படைபோர் புக்கு முழங்கும்அப் பாஞ்சசன்னியமும் பல்லாண்டே
    May your pA~nchajanya shankha which reverberates on the battlefield, last thousands upon thousands of years...
    http://archives.mirroroftomorrow.org...anchajanya.jpg

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