Hare Krsna!

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste ,

First, this was not even a problem until recent times. Even today, the Varna/Jati system is not a problem for the Vaidheekas, i.e. those who derive religious doctrine from Vedas and other sources affiliated with the Vedas. For them, and in earlier times, Varna/Jati was understood as a strictly endogamous and hierarchical system based on one’s birth. That was just the way things were. But, in recent times, with the ascendancy of natural rights, equality, democracy, the natural understanding of the Varna system has become increasingly indefensible.

There are many myths created by anti-varna dharma people such as jati is man made . Jati and varna have no any connection ,like this . of course Jati is the same as Varna; there may be thousands of Jatis, but they can be neatly grouped into one of the four Varnas .

Even a cursory reading of Manu Dharmashsthras will clearly show that the four Varnas are intrinsically defined by birth and it stays till death.
Oh well, I can already hear their protestations -- Manu is obsolete, no one even reads it any more. It does not matter how widely read Manu is today, it still occupies the highest realm of sacred texts next in authority only to the Vedas.

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste , devotee .

Apart from puranas , bhagavad gita also accepts varna by birth if we look carefully . Some people claim that Getha makes no mention of Varna being determined by birth. Let us examine this claim carefully .


On the issue of Varna and birth, we find answer in the very first chapter. In Shloka 41 of Chapter 1, Arjuna declares that Varna Sankraha, i.e. mixing of Varna, will result if the women of the clan become blemished. Further, in the next Shloka, Arjuna says that due to the mixing of Varna, the virtues of Jati and Kulam (clan) that have existed from beginningless time, will be destroyed. In this Shloka, Arjuna makes a clear connection between Varna and Jati. Finally, Arjuna cites the authority of clan elders for this position, in Shloka 44. So, Arjuna claims, on the authority of elders, mixing of Varna will result if the chastity of women is not preserved. If Varna is strictly determined by one’s conduct and is not a function of one’s birth, why would there be mixing of Varna that Arjuna speaks of ?


In the seventeen chapters that follow, Lord Krishna never once disputes Arjuna on this issue of connection between Varna and birth. He dispels Arjuna of many of his delusions, yet the Lord chooses not to dispel him of this one. The Lord does speak of Varna several times in the course of his teachings to Arjuna, yet, never once does he correct him on this connection. So, the only conclusion we are allowed is that the Lord does not consider the connection between Varna and birth, a delusion.


However strong the above evidence may be, some persons won't accept this . Now see the next evidence .


Let us look at Shloka 33 of chapter 9. Lord Krishna is in the process of explaining to Arjuna that anyone can seek his refuge and attain freedom (moksha). To emphasize this, the Lord states that even women, Vaishya, and Shudra, who are born out of Papam, can achieve the supreme goal by surrendering to Lord Krishna -- so, it goes without saying that Brahmanas and Kshatriyas, who are born out of Punya and Bhakthi, can surely achieve it through him. Here, the Lord states unequivocally that the four Varnas are determined by birth, resulting from Papam or Punyam, and for good measure, he adds women as well in the mix. The term he uses is “papa yonayaha”. There cannot be any ambiguity what the Lord states -- Women, Vaishyas and Shudras are born out of Papam. In other words, just as gender is determined by birth , Varna is determined as a result of birth and is generally unchangeable. Here the another thing we came to know that guna and karma are dependant on birth or papa , punya .


Hari krishna hari hari

[grames]

Just a quick reply....

If Arjuna is worried about "mixing" of Varna, what he has done in his marriages is already what he is worried about if at all, it is all by mere birth alone.

You said, Arjuna claims such varna is eternal - not sure if you have copy pasted or consciously typed it. ("Arjuna says that due to the mixing of Varna, the virtues of Jati and Kulam (clan) that have existed from beginningless time")

What you are getting in to is not the objective of whether someone born outside the land of India has any rights to worship Lord Govinda. Now, you are focusing on, who is best among the varna ( again, something very much refutable when the Prema Lakshna of Jiva is expanded and Krshna clearly states and also demonstrated, the Prema Bhakta is His life line and He gives up Himself and becomes their servant, child and lover and takes up all possible relations and services just for their unalloyed Love - That has no Jati or Varna attached to it) so, if you want to change this discussion to who is best among varna, that is fine but we are loosing track on the proof that, Is guna karma acquired after birth or not! ( You haven't provided a proof yet for this - instead of statements)

Hare Krshna!

[Sudas Paijavana]

Pranam-s,

HLK, can you take this conversation onto another thread, and leave this one alone? It's just an introduction thread - not, under any circumstances, to be used for continuous debate. I could understand if it was just a discussion - but, this has turned into a full out debate. Please, for the love of Krishna, take it somewhere else. Leave this thread alone.

[Believer]

Namaste,

The good Lord has been periodically sending people to this forum whose thinking, shall we say, has been different from the majority of the members in the forum. That becomes a test of our patience, our spiritual maturity and our humility. Common sense tells us that we should ignore their posts and they would wither away for want of an audience. Once we start challenging them, things get ugly very quickly and the conversation goes downhill. The case of the just banned member is a testimonial to that, whereby all of us felt a need to respond, against our better judgement. Perhaps we can do better next time the Lord sends someone to the forum to put us through a test.

Pranam.

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste

Namaste,

The good Lord has been periodically sending people to this forum whose thinking, shall we say, has been different from the majority of the members in the forum. That becomes a test of our patience, our spiritual maturity and our humility. Common sense tells us that we should ignore their posts and they would wither away for want of an audience. Once we start challenging them, things get ugly very quickly and the conversation goes downhill. The case of the just banned member is a testimonial to that, whereby all of us felt a need to respond, against our better judgement. Perhaps we can do better next time the Lord sends someone to the forum to put us through a test.

Pranam.

Indeed.
Although I know that I'm just wasting my time with HLK I still answer his posts.

regards

[Anima Deorum]

Namaste Devi Dasi

What a nice member name! It brings back memories of the 1970s and a wonderful Hindu who was American who authored a devotional song IN ENGLISH that was called "Devi Dasi" and he would play guitar and sing this and other very nice Hindu songs both in English, Sanskrit, Hindi, Bengali.

In one way, you remind me of my daughter. My wife is Bengali-Gujarati.

I hope everything goes well for you on this forum, you seem to know a lot and I am sure I will seek a question once in a while.

So you are a devotee of Krishna. Let me share my favorite artwork of Krsna by Raja Ravi Varma. He is one of my favorite artists, I sure you will recognize it as it was repainted by ISKCON, but this is the original:



"Your ever well wisher"

Om Namah Sivaya

Beautiful. Thank you.