Hare Krsna!

[grames]

One of Adi Shankaracharya's (eighth century) finest poems, 'Manisha Panchakam', was inspired by his dialogue with a Chandala, a member of the lowest caste. Once, when Shankara was on his way to the temple after a bath in the Ganga, he found a Chandala with four dogs blocking his path. His caste prejudice flared up when the Chandala refused to step aside, and asked him to do so. But the Chandala asked: "If there is only one existence, what is it that you want to drive away: My body or my soul? If it is my body, both your and mine are made up of the same physical elements.

But if it is my soul, it is also no different from yours. How can therefore be any distinctions of caste and creed?" Filled with remorse, Shankara prostrated himself before the Chandala. The bard in him sang: "He who has learnt to see one existence everywhere/ he is my master - be he a Brahmin or a Chandala."

More here with all five http://sanskritdocuments.org/sites/s...apanchakam.pdf

Again, when Goswami Tulsidas recreated Valmiki's Ramayan in Awadhi, the language of commoners, he was denounced by the purblind Brahminical order of the day. It was the then Shankaracharya who gave dharma's sanction to the transcreation of Ramayana, which reached out to a vast populace. It was a revolutionary movement, a reinvention of such brilliance that only Sanatan Dharma was capable of.

[hinduism♥krishna]

So much unrelated and unnecessary claims are continueing again and again ! By posting too much you can not disprove that 11.11.5 verse. Know that varna dharma is within the maya ; not beyond the maya.

Ok , I stopped here until you don't disprove that verse and until you don't post the scriptural supports that clearly states varna is not by birth.

Live with your opinions , don't change them ever. Outsiders can assume whatever they want. It doesn't matter. Because Varna dharma is the duty of those who are born in 4 varnas.

Thank you. Bye and take care.

Hari krishna hari

[grames]

What is not proved cannot be disproved!

Same rule applies to you as well.... that Varna is by Birth!

When the dots are connected, it is a proof and if you cannot see, that is the Qualification of your individual status. I cannot help it.

My birth did give me what you are celebrating here but i have no pride in that rather my faith is in being qualified or getting qualified. So, i am surely not part of your so called "Circle" and i will be always an outsider to your circle.

Hare Krshna!

[hinduism♥krishna]

Dear grames.

This is another which clearely proves varna by birth.


The Lord tells Srideva in Srimad Bhagavata (10.86.53):

" brahmano janmana sreyan sarvesam praninam iha
tapasa vidyaya tustya kim u mat kalaya yutah "

"The brahmana is superior to all living beings by birth , let alone when he is austere, learned, content and devoted to Me."

[grames]

Dear Hk.,

I am not frightened and i will not but i want to caution you that, you are now getting to inner circle of who is better and who is not when the original objective is whether someone who is not born in the land of India is qualified to follow SD or not! We are not discussing whether Brahmana is best or Shudra not!

If you can just prove this statement of yours, it will settle the score

"Guna and Karma acquired by birth"

Thanks
Hare Krshna!

[hinduism♥krishna]

Dear Hk.,

I am not frightened and i will not but i want to caution you that, you are now getting to inner circle of who is better and who is not when the original objective is whether someone who is not born in the land of India is qualified to follow SD or not! We are not discussing whether Brahmana is best or Shudra not!

If you can just prove this statement of yours, it will settle the score

"Guna and Karma acquired by birth"

Thanks
Hare Krshna!

Namaste , really you don't have any answer to my proofs .

"The brahmana is superior to all living beings by birth , let alone when he is austere, learned, content and devoted to Me."

You said this verse is only stating that bramhana is superior to others . So funny interpretetion ! Did you eat the word " janmana-by birth ? or you have some defects to see it .

That verse clearely says that bramhanas are superior than anything . By what ? The verse answers that ' by birth ' . This simple thing you can not understand , then what to talk about basics of varna dharma ? I really surprised by seeing that you are not using your common sense .
You asked me the proof to show guna and varna dependant on birth . However the answer is hidden in just two verses . One verse where krishna says varna is classified according to varna and other verse from bhagavat puranas which is stating varna by birth and which was too spoken by krishna . We should know that there can not be the two opposing statements in most authentic scriptures like gita and bhagavat purana . At least shri krishna can not say two contradictory statements . So this is the indirect proof which shows guna and karma are dependant on birth .

Now the direct understanding ! KARMA AND GUNA are dependent on birth is a very well known fact .It doesn't need any proofs . It is explainable and logical .
Varna dharma is not the matter of just one life . It is the matter of all previous lives . There is a law of karma who says ' By what way you act , in the the same way i will act ' . Guna and karma have a direct relation with the ' papa ' and 'punya' . In reality , this law of karma governs the varna dharma . Only he decides the person's future varna or birth . If the person was under the predominant 'tamas guna' in his previous lives , law of karma won't give him birth in bramhana family in next birth

.Similarly if the person was predominantly under satwik guna , the law of karma won't give him birth in shudra varna in his next birth . This is the simple understanding .

Whatever you do in your past lives , it has a direct impact on sins and virtues and on your position of varna in the next birth . In short , The order is like this .The karma and guna are dependant on birth , the birth is dependant on sins and virtues and these sins ,virtues are dependant and governed by law of karma .
If you are not understanding this simple thing , then fault will be in the intelligence ; not in bhagavta purana's sacred verses.

Another point ! In bhagavat gita , lord krishna says ' varna is classified by me according to guna and karma . He didn't say that varna is only by karma and guna . The correct understanding by considering verses from bhagavat purana would be like this : The varna is by birth and by what nature they are classified ? They are classified according guna and karma . It means guna and karma are the natures of varna . So it doesn't get contradicted with varna by birth .

Besides i can prove varna by birth with the help of gita only .

[devotee]

Namaste HLK,

Though I don't want to spoil the party you and Grames are enjoying but :

I don't think the verses you have quoted support that only children born to Brahmana are Brahmana. Can you show any verse from Bhagwad Gita or Upanishads which say so ? I don't think there is any verse in Bhagwad Purana too which supports this.

In my humble opinion :

BrAhmana by Birth ===> Those who have BrAhmANa qualities (as stated by Lord Krishna in Chapter 18 of BG) by birth i.e. acquired naturally at the time of birth due to their past samskArs.

BTW, will you please refer VajraSuchikA Upanishad, which enjoys higher authority than PurANa being Upanishad http://www.vedarahasya.net/vajra.htm , doesn't support your theory ?

Please refer these too :

Those greats who were non born in Brahmin family :

I am a poet, my father is a doctor, my mother a grinder of corn.
Rigveda, 9.112.3

===> This shows that in Vedic times, in one family alone there could be many VarNas.

Maharshi Aitreya Mahidasa: According to tradition, his mother was a maid named ‘Itara’. This Rishi is credited with the compilation of the Aitreya Brahmana and sections 1-3 of the Aitreya Aranyaka (the latter contains the Aitreya Upanishad- one of the 10 canonical Upanishads for Hindus) belonging to the Rigveda.

Maharshi Matanga: He was the son of a Shudra mother and a Vaishya father. In fact, Chandalas are often addressed as ‘Matanga ’in passages like Varaha Purana 1.139.91

Maharshi Valmiki: He was descendant from Sages but had become a chandaala (= an outcaste) named Ratnakara, because he took to murder and highway robbery. He was reformed by Prajapati Brahma and was inspired by the divine Sage Narada to compose the Hindu epic par excellence- the Ramayana.

Bhakta Nammalvar: The foremost of the Alvar Vaishnava saints, he was a Shudra by birth. His composition ‘Tiruvayamoli’, which is in the Tamil language, is considered at par with the Vedas by the Sri Vaishnava Hindus.

Saint Kabir: He was brought-up by ‘Julaha’ couple. Julahas are a Muslim caste of weavers. A Sef-realised saint. He preached in the language of the masses and many of his verses are common proverbs in North India.

Vatsa, a descendant of Kanva RV 6.1; 8.8 etc; was called a Shudra-putra (Panchavimsha Brahman 14.66).

Kakshivat, a Brahmavadin, was the son of Dirghatamas by a Shudra maid servant (Brihaddevata 4.24-25).

According to Mahabharata (Anushasana Parvan 53.13-19), Sage Kapinjalada was a Chandala and Sage Madanapala was the son of a boatwoman.

According to Mahabharata Shanti Parvan, King Sudas was also a Shudra. Sudas is one of the most celebrated kings of the Rigveda, being the hero of the Dasarajna war.


Some important passages :

"I do not know this, Sir, of what family I am. I asked my mother. She answered me: 'In my youth, when I went about a great deal serving as a maid, I got you. So I do not know this, of what family you are. However, I am Jabala by name; you are Satyakama by name.' So I am Satyakama Jabala, sir." To him he then said: "A non-brahmin would not be able to explain thus. Bring the fuel, my dear. I will receive you as a pupil. You have not deviated from the truth."
Chhandogya Upanishad 4.4.1-5


“Listen about caste, Yaksa dear, not study, not learning is the cause of the twice-born status. Conduct is the basis, there is no doubt about it.”
Mahabharata III.312.106

“O King of Serpents! He in whom are manifest truthfulness, charity, forbearance, good conduct, non-injury, austerity and compassion is a Brahmin according to the sacred tradition.”
Mahabharata III.180.20

“O Serpent! He, in whom this conduct is manifest is a Brahmin, he in whom this is absent treat all such as Sudra.”
Mahabharata III.180.27

“The gods consider him a Brahmin (a knower of Brahman) who has no desires, who undertakes no work, who does not salute or praise anybody (with a selfish motive), the fruits of whose deeds have exhausted and who maintains equanimity.”
Mahabharata, XII.269.34

“If one’s birth were to decide one’s caste, then all should be Brahmins because all humans beings have one Father- Prajapati (God, the protector and master of all creatures).”
Shukraniti, Chapter 1

“Vyasa, born of a dancing girl, became a great Rishi;
Hence, it is tapas that makes one a Brahmin, and not his birth.
Sakti, born of a Chandala woman, became a great Rishi.
Hence, it is tapas that makes one a Brahmin, and not his birth.
Parasara, born of SwapAki, became a great Rishi;
Hence, it is tapas that makes one a Brahmin, and not his birth.
Vyasa, born of a fisherwoman, became a great Rishi;
Hence, it is tapas that makes one a Brahmin, and not his birth.”


Again, the verse "ChAturvarnyam mayA srishtam guna karma vibhAgshah" (BG) does say that the four VarNas are classified on the basis of guNa and karma that clearly means that guNa and karma are the main consideration for anyone getting classified into a particular varNa.

.... but you both can keep the fight on, if you so wish. I quit here.

OM

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam all
Wow
There I thought we must have one very popular introduction here! so I thought to join in to welcome our new member, alas it is another very popular subject that has taken over!

Welcome Devi Dasi

Welcome back Devotee ji

PS
Can this current discussion be conducted in its appropriate thread please

Jai Shree Krishna

[hinduism♥krishna]

BrAhmana by Birth ===> Those who have BrAhmANa qualities (as stated by Lord Krishna in Chapter 18 of BG) by birth i.e. acquired naturally at the time of birth

Exactly , bramhana qualities are aquired naturally through their birth .That's why varna is by birth . . The son of bramhana will be a bramhana only .

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste devotee ,

Even in upanishada and veda , there is not any acceptable proof that clearely shows that varna is not by birth , while In puranas , there are many incidents which clearely posit varna by birth as a fact .Eg - In ramayana epic , ravana was born in bramhana family .So he was a bramhana . He was the knower of the vedanta. But later on You know that he was overwhelmed by the pride . Moreover he kidnapped rama's wife sita . He didn't show the bramhana qualities at that time . So if we believe in varna not by birth , ravana should not be considered as bramhana . Finally rama killied ravana .But after the death why did rama perform sanskara on his body after killing the ravana if he was not bramhana ? it is known that one should perform sanskara when one kills the bramhana . The killing of bramhana is called as 'bramhahatya ' which is the greatest sin .

hari krishna