Wow, is this an intro thread !!!
W E L C O M E !!!
Seems you are popular from the beginning.
Welcome Devi dasi
Hare Krishna
Wow, is this an intro thread !!!
W E L C O M E !!!
Seems you are popular from the beginning.
Welcome Devi dasi
Hare Krishna
Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi
Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya
namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76
Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma
Namaste
Maybe she is popular not because she is a girl, but rather because she can write a literate, grammatical and coherent sentence. Maybe that scares some boys who cannot put a coherent sentence together.
Perhaps some of the boys can learn from her, perhaps even some of those "secrets" which others are "not supposed to know", so "privie" that some boys cannot even put together two slices of bread from the dharmic bread box to explain it without sounding like profound truth is being reduced to writs that one cannot help laugh at the sophomoric construct of the sentence.
Om Namah Sivaya
Last edited by ShivaFan; 01 December 2013 at 02:00 PM. Reason: LOL
Namaste Omkara
You are wrong. Not only did Madhvacharya argue for birth based varna, he said that varna and gender are intrinsic to the soul and a jiva is always born in the same varna and gender, and retains the same varna and gender in moksha.
What?!? There is no way Madhvacharya believed such nonsense that a soul keeps the same varna and gender in moksha, and still be respected as knowing Ishwara or Brahman or having jnana on anything. I suppose there are some more primative regional jingoism exposed in such nonsense but no way could this be the ideation of someone who is speaking truth or purported to be.
Are you saying Madhvacharya thinks whatever "heaven" or moksha that place is, that it requires shoeshiners and ragpickers, servants to "upper castes" and whatever some think varna means when they link it with caste and such nonsense? Next are you going to tell me that in moksha, that this saint believes there is an apartheid section just for Brahmins, another for Sudras, a temple where one side the "eternal males" sit and another side where "eternal females" sit? Don't make me laugh.
Either this means Madhvacharya actually believed such nonsense in which case all the renowned and praiseworthy pronouncements and teachings were the actual interpolations by others who were actual saints, or this nonsense is what it is, some odd twist to promote some self-promoting fakery.
Please spare me the "reference".
How did an intoroductory thread descend to this? Just because someone is a girl and perhaps a member of ISKCON or a Gaudiya of some type? Just say "Hi" and be done with it. But no, we can't expect that.
Om Namah Sivaya
Hi.,
Thats the beauty and mastery of Shri Madhva! Lot of things said in this chain and adulterating a nice devotee prabhuji's intro in to a dog-fight proves the acharya's judgements that, Varna is not and never be by birth. A brahmana class belongs to intellectual one and simultaneously peaceful and looks like we haven't seen one in this thread yet. So much noise and even go to the extend to disapprove Shri Madhva's philosophy as non-vedic.
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
This is the nutshell of Brahmana Lakshana!
Some who believes or ought to believe all these are "illusion" does not even recognize the unjust idea of social classes being upper and lower or only "hindu" qualifies for knowing that "Brahman" etc. but asking for using common sense? Why or where did that "One Brahman" being in all lost or thrown away and where is the color of that soul? If the idea is, the Maya has the Varna, then talking about it, is useless for their very own spiritual progress and such believers already know that transcending the Maya is the Moksha. (Transcending your idea of 'varna' is what it means - not sticking to it which is still moha) Who can transcend is not restricted to any class of "mayic" 'Brahmana'or Hindu Varna and where is the common sense then? It only proves that, some section of the society exploiting the vedic dharma (still call it dharma, varna dharma etc. with out giving any meaning to such claims) for their personal gain and worried about someone who is not gotten the birth in certain varna to take over their 'socio economical" occupation of "Priesthood" and the subsequent income as there is no one who is going to claim they are 'kshatriyas or vaisyas as these are already completely lost. When you accept all the vedic social classifications are diluted, in what sense we are upholding something that is not existing or no longer exist but twisting and teaching with a false pride that it is how it was Vedic?
Sudra wanting to be called/identified as "Brahmin" because of just birth is ill nature and that is what is going on and that is the effect of this "unintelligent" idea of Varna by birth theory! But, as an individual, do we ever go to a doctor for our disease if we got to know such doctor is not qualified but got the degree by paying money?
I am alone qualified for "Krshna's Love" is product of your Ego! Understanding the fact that, the root cause of loss of qualities of our social living is due to this false pride and instead of cultivating the "Brahminhood" or a "Brahmana Varga", we are sticking to the unproductive and unjust idea of Brahminhood by birth but on the other side, the number of dull headed and ill witted are getting produced outnumbering the selfless intellectual. It is very common to witness an "" intelligent thief "" nowadays which was an oxymoron term in vedic system and please put your thoughts and efforts to help fix this instead of making unintelligent, unvedic idea of "intelligence" belongs to a family or power and rule belongs to a family etc. It is not a surprise why few families loot all your money and happiness along with the your hard work because, you support the idea that "all the money and power" belongs to someone's family by birth alone. Recognize that and understand that, when you are dreaming of life in paradice, the reality has stolen everything else from you and be alarmed about that please.
brahmana-ksatriya-visam
sudranam ca parantapa
karmani pravibhaktani
svabhava-prabhavair gunaih
They are distinguished by their work! Not by birth!
sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah
para-dharmat svanusthitat
svabhava-niyatam karma
kurvan napnoti kilbisam
'svabhava" and not "janma" and there is more importance to the nature of the soul and that is not gotten by birth (as this complete thread is advocating - when karma results in good birth, the svaBhava drives the soul to accumulate the punyas - for getting such good birth and it is not the BIRTH which is determining the svaBhava - sva - inherent and nothing to do with Birth. When there is inherent quality, the birth in such noble family helps or birth in not so noble family deteriorates what is already gained - so qualifying the inherant nature and suiting the occupation matching to the nature of the atma is the ONLY means of spritual progress - Son of a president is not automatically a president unless until he qualifies for that designation. But your system is making it compulsory and day dreaming of great noble character because someone is son of a PM or President)
sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
ahaituky apratihatā
yayātmā suprasīdati
Such duty is duty of mankind and that is the Dharma and not "hindus" alone qualified for it unless you are going to claim "mankind=hindu" or mankind='those who are born in the boundaries of Himalayas and sea" etc. Why the word hindu is not used here?
sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah
Its even more clinching...abandon "sarva dharma" and choose the path of surrender! Proving again, it is advised and also practiced that, those who are surrendered are above the social vocational occupation of varna and such vaishnavas are guaranteed to get Krshna's protection and love! This is the philosophy and life of Shri Ramanuja, Shri Madhva and all the Vaishnava traditions! They are more "Brahminical" and vedic and we do require such stalwarts of Jnana and humble bhakta as acharyas for guiding us in the path of Love for Lord to gain anything positive in our spiritual quest!
Hare Krshna!
Hi.,
Shri Madhva did not believe in the Social Varna by birth theory and attributing such to him is wrong! He revealed three class of Souls ( pure class and no mayix mix) one who is sattvic who attains the Moksha and lives in the company of Lord Vishnu, second the ever transmigrating Rajasa soul and three the ones who are always opposed to the Lord as tamasmic! And yes, all soul got inherent gender in the service of Lord and they act in accordance with their gender! The respect is not because someone is higher as in class etc. since in Moksha, its only all sattvic but the ladder of "qualified" soul is due to their eve increasing Jnana by the grace of Lord. So, the liberated Guru still receives the utmost respect of the Sishya jiva and since there is no jealousy or competition, there is no question of envy or ego and all are acting, living and serving the Lord to their utmost capacity! (This is very very important concept of Shri Madhva and none of the words can be thrown out of context here)
A jiva born in Sudra family but intrinsically a sattvic soul will still attain the Moksha and such is the explanation for jiva like Prahaladha ( who appeared as Shri Raghavendra in the Shri Madhva chain of disciples). The opposite is also true that, a soul which is tamasmic can get birth in noble families and of course, look around and we got unlimited examples. . So, no where he says, your social occupation is same as your "varna" and also very strictly he says, only a "Sattvic soul, inherently sattvic" will ever surrender to the Lord and other types either just argue or always oppose refusing such surrender as it is their very own nature. (Again, such has nothing to do with their birth)
Hare Krshna!
Namaste , grames
Yes , varna is dependant on guna and karma . But know that guna and karma both are dependant on birth . Have you forgotten 'law of karma' ? So varna doesn't depend on family/birth ? You will not see a bramhana in daitya family or you will not see asura in bramhana family ? Yes , there are few exceptions too. But it doesn't matter .They are just exceptions .
So what do you think ? Will not be there any difference between the person who borns in hindu vedic family (consider krishna devotee) and the other who borns in christian family ? Just tell me . There is much difference as like the difference between sky and ground .
Dear.,
When two verses from the same source gives out opposing meaning, you cannot pick what is interesting and suitable to your theory alone. I guess, you have rushed and didn't see some of the BG verses i have posted and if you don't consider them as proof, i can actually provide more. I can explain all that you have posted ( in fact, ran in to the perimeter of such already) fitting in to the intelligent social classification which is purely by the inherent nature of the soul and its "so far" merits opposing to "such nobility by birth alone" idea. But, disapprove the verses i have quoted and they are in fact sufficient to prove what the "Lord Krshna" advised as vedic standards.
Hare Krshna!
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