Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 4567891011 LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 107

Thread: Hare Krsna!

  1. #71
    Join Date
    June 2013
    Location
    Maharashtra
    Posts
    570
    Rep Power
    1125

    Smile Re: Hare Krsna!

    Namaste , I have one of the big proofs from the most authentic purana that clearely states that varna is by birth .


    “vipro rajanya vaishyo cha harehe praptaha padantikam , shroten janmanathapi muhyantyamnayavadinah “ (BP 11.5.5)


    Meaning:Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are very near to Shri Hari’s feet by virtue of their birth and Vedic ceremonies, yet they are misguided by wrong interpretation of Vedas about the fruits of actions.

    What do you say ? This verse is from the most reliable purana , bhagavat purana . Now you should disprove this , then we would accept your view .Come on
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 03 December 2013 at 10:13 PM. Reason: changed the wrong verse number

  2. #72
    Join Date
    June 2006
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    572
    Rep Power
    820

    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Dear HK.,

    Very valid questions and i appreciate it. Take this example....

    When you go to war, you are not going to pick the list of Kshatriyas alone for the war - Mahabharata has the list of groups who fought the war from both the sides - That includes so many social class who are not Kshatriya by birth - that even includes mlechaas

    I dont want to detail the history of Sikhs, Kashmiri pundits etc. but google it if you want to know how they accommodated the different people in to their own social rights and the changes.

    When the objective is intact, ie to achieve something very noble, the social setup should help "each and everyone" with out sacrificing any section of the society! In the war, one cooks the meal, one takes up the sword and fights, one has to setup the tents and beds etc. But, do we read or give any damn time or interest to those events apart from the ones who has taken the sword and who won the war? We don't? But, all equally participated and the victory belongs to the mass and not to just some individual. It is not Sachin who wins cricket but it is India where someone is still waiting for his chance but sacrificed or few in the rest of the 11 who accompanies him for his very own success! Understand that, there is a wicket keeper, bowler etc. for the purpose of winning a match and not to discriminate between each other. This is the intelligence and this is what should be understood as the "secret". So, it is only Maharastra which can produce great batsman and all others are not allowed to bat? No one from Kashmir can be included in the cricket team because they are not fit? That is silly and that is exactly what we are sharing here.

    If the purpose of Veda or Vedic life is with out a goal or a noble achievement, i would happily agree as such in-fight and social drama will be very joyful to our ego.

    Guna and Karma is not because of Birth! Most who believe genetic theory etc. ought to believe such but rationally, you can only define and justify half part of Guna by Genes inherited from parents. It is not uncommon that, child having opposing characters and it is also scientific in fact most common that, children do inherit the 'modified' genetic sequences and not replica of either father or mother. (The mirroring or part reflection of Shri Madhva is very sound concept to admit even by science). What is that fixes or regulates the "process of modification" of gene sequence?? That has to happen before the birth itself and it cannot come to existence "after birth" and thus "Birth cannot fix your Guna, as it requires the Guna to be already fixed and that is the LAW OF NATURE that i have known, science has rationally proven to be true" as well.

    But my acharyas says, such Guna's are of two types viz one that is inherent to the jiva itself ( no we don't call Jiva = Brahman at any point of existence) and the other one is acquired based on the "Karma" governed by the Laws of Nature ( Laws of Nature does not change the svaBhava or inherent guna of the jiva - such can be only changed by the grace of Lord). This is how, Guna and Karma plays the role in ones social occupation rather than "birth" giving such Guna or Karma! Once jiva starts its Karma ( life in the material world), the Laws of Nature works naturally witnessing the Karma of the Jiva and the Guna acquired drives the current Karma of the Jiva either in the direction of Lord or against the Lord and also combination of both as in neutral. In Chapter 18, this is what Lord Krshna explains in detail, mode of nature, working in the mode of nature etc. ( Please read them in detail so that the above framework will explain why Birth cannot give any Guna or Karma).

    With all this, am i denouncing the merits of birth in a noble family. No. Not at all. It is surely a gift and also a curse if not 'given' a birth in noble family but that is not end criteria is the ONLY point that our acharyas insisted and guided us to follow and that is also the vedic life system. What you call as "Exceptions" are not exceptions with the above understanding and they are also natural! Prahalada is a sattvic soul and his Guna is always sattvic and so even though born to HiranyaKasibu, he only exhibited his satvic nature and his birth did not affect his intrinsic nature.

    Such philosophical framework which can validate the finding of science is the greatness of our Acharyas and following their foot steps is, in my humble opinion very much vedic way of living.

    Hare Krshna!

  3. #73

    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Namaste,

    ^Dang, Grames. HLK went all scriptural on you.
    Last edited by Sudas Paijavana; 04 December 2013 at 03:22 AM.

  4. #74
    Join Date
    June 2006
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    572
    Rep Power
    820

    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Dear Sudas.,


    Surely. I don't believe in making empty statements and yes there are quotes! I have made a statement also that, when two opposing statements are found, there should be a way to normalize with out killing the meaning of either one of them and this is the way it should be understood. ( If you kill one, you are disloyal to the very same source you claim to support you - This is the strongest point where neo scholars lost their claim of being vedic)

    So, why the verses i quoted does not support the "guna karma" not by birth? Isn't opposing and saying, the devotion is the duty of Man Kind? So, to disapprove that, devotion can only by the Hindus, you have to come up with an alternative that does not kill the "pumsam" found in the particular verse and show me one such with the right explanation? In fact, for advocating Varna by birth, it is very difficult to disapprove a lot of scripture which goes against such theory, it is also against science.

    Hare Krshna!

  5. #75
    Join Date
    June 2006
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    572
    Rep Power
    820

    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Great.

    I will respond and give the proper meaning to this verse...

    But, in the very same chapter, what is the verse you have for 11.2.36?

    In the copy of Srimad Bhagavatam i have, the content of 11.2.5 is not what you have posted so lets first fix on the verse numbers.

    Hare Krshna!

  6. #76

    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Grames,

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    In the copy of Srimad Bhagavatam i have, the content of 11.2.5 is not what you have posted so lets first fix on the verse numbers.
    All you have to do is provide the edition/copy name of the text (year number, author/editor, etc.) along with the full quote in question.
    Last edited by Sudas Paijavana; 04 December 2013 at 03:22 AM.

  7. #77

    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Namaste,

    I might get slack for saying this: but, social origin, social standing (caste-wise, class-wise, monetary-wise, etc.), and heritage are completely trivial and unnecessary when it comes to consideration for becoming a Hindu.

    The concept, the act, the nature of "becoming" a Hindu is more important - for, some never "become" Hindu but dharmically live as "Hindus". And likewise, many Hindus live like they aren't even "Hindu", but are just Hindu by name and convenience.

    As long as one betters oneself, does good to those around him/her, stands up for him/herself and others against what is a-dharmic, and attempts to contribute to society and help better the world...that's really what is crucially important. I think that is "Hindu".

    ^IMHO

  8. #78
    Join Date
    February 2012
    Posts
    1,525
    Rep Power
    2741

    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Kidos! You are a GREAT Hindu! Jai Rig Ved, Shree Devas!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    Namaste,

    I might get slack for saying this: but, social origin, social standing (caste-wise, class-wise, monetary-wise, etc.), and heritage are completely trivial and unnecessary when it comes to consideration for becoming a Hindu.

    The concept, the act, the nature of "becoming" a Hindu is more important - for, some never "become" Hindu but dharmically live as "Hindus". And likewise, many Hindus live like they aren't even "Hindu", but are just Hindu by name and convenience.

    As long as one betters oneself, does good to those around him/her, stands up for him/herself and others against what is a-dharmic, and attempts to contribute to society and help better the world...that's really what is crucially important. I think that is "Hindu".

    ^IMHO

  9. #79
    Join Date
    June 2013
    Location
    Maharashtra
    Posts
    570
    Rep Power
    1125

    Wink Re: Hare Krsna!

    Dear grames ,

    That verse is from bP 11.5.5 .

    Narada says :

    “vipro rajanya vaishyo cha harehe praptaha padantikam , shroten janmanathapi muhyantyamnayavadinah “ (BP 11.2.5)

    vipro : bramhanas , rajanya : kshatriyas , vaishyo : vaishya , cha : and , harehe : hari's , praptaha : aquired , padan : feet , antikam : near to , shrauten : by veda (vedic ceremonies ) , janmana : by birth , athapi : yet , muhyanti : got misguided , amnay : vedic wisdom , vadinah : speaking , declaring or interpretation


    Meaning : Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are very near to Shri Hari’s feet by virtue of their birth and Vedic ceremonies, yet they are misguided by wrong interpretation of Vedas (about the fruits of actions.)


    So the varna by birth is surely confirmed by the most authentic purana -bhagavat purana .


  10. #80
    Join Date
    June 2006
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    572
    Rep Power
    820

    Re: Hare Krsna!

    Hi.,

    Here is the source of misunderstanding

    Brhaahmanosya Mukmaaseeth Bhaahoo Raajanyakruthah: |
    Uruthathasya Yadhvaisyah: Pathbyaagum Soodhro Ajaayatha ( Not going to put the verse number for a purpose as this is one of the most popular suktam)

    This is the origin of Varna and this is the only place where "Varna" is by Birth. That Purusha manifests the eternal principles and thus, these varna are already existing even before any Jiva got its birth! (Literal translations will be of bad taste and there is no birth by arms, chest, belly and feet etc.). Some also interpret the above principles as the choices to choose and follow! ( Again, such goes against the theory and faith of Varna by birth)

    On the contrary, no where (as of i know) it is mentioned that, a Brahmana will get birth only in the family of Brahmana and ditto for other three classes and also the outclasses that were not mentioned. To uphold such faith or belief, we require a vedic proof as well. The idea of Dvija ( twice born - the second one is not from a yoni and such birth is noble and acceptable and agreed and now who can take that second birth? anyone as they qualify) again derails the faith of Varna by birth!

    On Jati, it is not to be again tied to the "birth" caste as some selfish saffron clothed monks advocating and following not being true to the vedas. Jati simply means "kind" or type or classification of Jiva's material form and again the subsequent suktas details the various Jati's that gets manifested from the Purusha. Jati is acquired by material birth and that is determined by the Laws of Nature as SD knows the transmigration of Soul and its evolution in advancing through suitable forms. Bharata maharaja taking the form of a deer is not a secret ( detailed in the 5th Canto of SBP). That is "Jati" and there is no difference between two human or two dogs and they all belong to same jati.

    All the vedantic schools admits the "three Gunas" of Maya and its governing nature during the material existence for the Jiva! This is the second form of Varna - the temporary which will be given away as the material existence gets over.I have already quoted the chapter 18 BG verses which confirms clearly that, the mode in which the jiva comes in to contact and acts, determines the karma and also the reward for such Karma. But this is not fixated and the jiva has the choice to choose and if it is not a choice to choose, Krshna will not advice the Surrender and give the guarantee of complete protection where "Surrender" is the choice and who can surrender is open to "all man kind" defying the ideas that

    1. Varna is by birth and also
    2. Surrender to Krshna as exclusive rights of Brahmana

    The above explains the acceptance of many popular vedic personalities like Veda Vyasa, Parashara, Vashista who did not have birth in the family of Brahmins yet as "Brahmanas". They are not exceptions and branding such as exceptions only shows the pride and ego rather anything intelligent since the very source they bring in to support such idea is in fact, composed by someone who is not "qualified" to do so as he is not Brahmana by birth! Even the author of Ramayana was not a Brahamana by birth!

    Dear Sudas., i am not worried to bring in even more resources for the above vedic ideals but worried if they can be understood well and accepted as truth shedding the ego and false pride.

    Hare Krshna!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Purana's
    By Pra4ash in forum Puranas
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 26 December 2015, 08:49 PM
  2. The Grihastha Crisis
    By Krsna Das in forum Hare Krishna (ISKCON)
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 26 November 2010, 12:52 AM
  3. Happy Birthday Krsna
    By shian in forum Hare Krishna (ISKCON)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03 September 2007, 02:30 PM
  4. Definitions: Hare Krsna (ISKCON)
    By yajvan in forum Dharma Lexicon
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12 April 2007, 07:25 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •