Hare Krsna!

[grames]

Dear HK.,

Thanks for giving the right verse and the interpretations fitting to the context does not glorify any exclusiveness to these four but explains the bad state of affairs of the jivas

King Nimi ask about the unfortunate souls like us about what will be the destination if we fail to worship the Lotus feet of Hari because we are attached to our desires and material pleasure!

In fact, 11.5.4 details the compassion of the King on fallen souls (not to ignore but to show them the path to Lord Krshna - again bombarding the exclusive access to only to the so called geographically bounded society)

Just two verse above states, worship by all varnas and in all ashramas!

Now, the 11.5.5 flowing with the context is not glorifying the four caste but only three and why just three and not four even though all four are creation of the very same Lord? That is the question to be asked and the 'srautena janmana' by the vedic standards is possible only for the three classes and thus, it addresses the "Twice born" and not glorifying the Yonic Birth! Yet, this is not discarding the others but only highlights the fact that, even though they can be "twice born" and can "acquire the feet" of Hari, they are misguided! It is not a proof that, no one else can acquire Hari as the previous verse request the King to show His mercy to the "others".

There is a warning also in the 11.5.9 that comes from the pride of being born in the noble family.

So, i will still wait for a proof which clearly states, ONLY these can approach Lord and no one else can!

Hare Krshna!

[devotee]

Dear all,

This is the most unfortunate discussion on this forum which has been repeated again and again so many times. Nothing has harmed Hindu Dharma as much as Caste system. Today's Indian political parties are having a good harvest by investing in dividing people on caste lines. India's sorry state can be attributed to this system to a great extent.

"Aham Atman gudAkesha sarvabhUteshu sthitah"

If that is so, every human being (in fact, all beings) is temple of God. Do we differentiate between piety of different temples ?

BTW, if we read the quoted line correctly :

"Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are very near to Shri Hari’s feet by virtue of their birth and Vedic ceremonies, yet they are misguided by wrong interpretation of Vedas (about the fruits of actions.)"

It nowhere says that by birth means that the son of Brahmin would be Brahmin and son of a Kshatriya would be Kshatriya. By "birth" one acquires his/her natural guna/qualities so birth to a particular parent is important but we know that a person of Veda-scholar needn't be Veda-scholar, a son of engineer may not be an engineer and a son of a doctor needn't be a doctor.

Because if the above is an scriptural authority, it must be true without exception. ... and data shows that unfortunately, the "exceptions" in fact are exceptionally high.

What does the verse actually say ? By birth and by virtue of Vedic knowledge (Shrauten means "by virtue of having knowledge of Shruti") these three Varnas are nearer to God's feet.

I have done some research on Varna and Jaati. My understanding is that barring Brahmin Varna/Jaati, there are many instances where a Jaati which was considered Sudra was accepted as Kshatriya and vice-versa depending upon whether the King family was of that caste or whether the King-family lost in war and accepted menial jobs to survive in society. If we go by birth to parents then VyAsa was born to Parashar Muni, brahmin and Satyavati, a Sudra ... and so VyAsa would be a Sudra as per Manusmriti which says that if anyone parent is Sudra then the children born to those parents would be Sudra.

*********

Isa Upanishad teaches us that everything in this world is pervaded by God ... VedAnta tells us that God alone is the reality and everything else is mithya. Then why bother for caste or even varna ? Even if one is Brahmin or a Sudra is the path of Bhakti or JnAna different for him/her ? Does it make more difficult for a Sudra to attain God if he is fully devoted to God ... or does it make easier for a Brahmin to attain God if he is a thief, a liar or a hurtful to others ?

Dear sir, if that were so, Prahlada would not have been so dear to God. If that were so, Vidur would not have been so dear to Lord Krishna. If that were so, Sabri would not have been so dear to Lord Rama. If that were so, Hanuman would not have been so dear to Lord Rama. If that were so, saint Ravidas would not have been such a great God-realised person.

OM

[hinduism♥krishna]

Dear HK.,

Thanks for giving the right verse and the interpretations fitting to the context does not glorify any exclusiveness to these four but explains the bad state of affairs of the jivas

King Nimi ask about the unfortunate souls like us about what will be the destination if we fail to worship the Lotus feet of Hari because we are attached to our desires and material pleasure!

In fact, 11.5.4 details the compassion of the King on fallen souls (not to ignore but to show them the path to Lord Krshna - again bombarding the exclusive access to only to the so called geographically bounded society)

Just two verse above states, worship by all varnas and in all ashramas!

Now, the 11.5.5 flowing with the context is not glorifying the four caste but only three and why just three and not four even though all four are creation of the very same Lord? That is the question to be asked and the 'srautena janmana' by the vedic standards is possible only for the three classes and thus, it addresses the "Twice born" and not glorifying the Yonic Birth! Yet, this is not discarding the others but only highlights the fact that, even though they can be "twice born" and can "acquire the feet" of Hari, they are misguided! It is not a proof that, no one else can acquire Hari as the previous verse request the King to show His mercy to the "others".

There is a warning also in the 11.5.9 that comes from the pride of being born in the noble family.

So, i will still wait for a proof which clearly states, ONLY these can approach Lord and no one else can!

Hare Krshna!

Namaste , grames.

That verse clearely sates that varna is by birth . I don't think there should be any more misinterpretation ! The verse is crystal clear independant of other verses . I didn't say that only twice-born can attain that . I said they are near to the supreme feet of vishnu because of their birth in bramhana ,kshatriya and vaishya families .

The pride is the other thing .Here we are talking about varna by birth ,; not on its pride . You are just misinterpreting and thinking the opposite .

Narada says that No doubt, Bramhana ,kshatriya and vaishya (now generally referred as hindus ) are the highest births . But most of them gets misguided only because of pride of veda ; Otherwise there are very close to feet of vishnu and they can easily achieve that supreme goal by giving up that pride .

So the conclusion is that though twice born bramhana ,kshatriya and vaishya have highest births , they should drop that pride .In this way there are not far away from that bramhan .

Hari krishna hari

[grames]

Dear HK.,

I am not misinterpreting but pointing out the flaw of your self promotion and misinterpretation. If VarnAshrama cannot guarantee the Moksha, nothing else can and VarnAshrama does include "Shudra" as the foundation. So, why this verse is neglecting the shudra varna and why the rest three is generally referred as "Hindus"? Don't you see you are introducing your personal false pride hiding the actual message the verse is passing across?

The actual fact is, only a twice born can attain Moksha and you won't say it even if the verse conveys that message subtly excluding the Shudra varna (and then subsequent verses asking to show compassion towards 'others') that, everyone who gets birth is in fact a "Shudra" and a Shudra can adopt or get another Varna "Birth" in to either Brahmana, Kshatriya or Vaishya and that is the message which fits perfectly with the context. (This is the explanation for some of the verses in BG, Bagavatam and BS regarding not to teach the vedas to Sudhras as long as they remain just Sudhras - not a discrimination but forcing the shudra to be qualified before receiving the knowledge - Not allowing them to take the Dvija is not the idea and taking the vow as a varna is not prohibited anywhere even by Manus Smriti - When you shed your ego, you will understand all these intelligent social connection and perfection of the SD) The listed examples are just to prove the fact that, it is all caste-less personalities who got glorified as "Top Class Brahmana". The conclusion is not that, the birth gave them the varna and someone who is already born as a Brahmana need not require another birth to be called or considered Brahmana (and you asked for common sense and hope you read my earlier message where common sense shows varna was manifested much before any jiva's birth and also scientifically genetic sequences are not duplicated but inherited with 'change' in the sequences). By doing this disservice to the verse, you have comfortably and conveniently ignored the list of personalities with out any explanation about their "noble" birth as they do not support your "theory"! Calling them exception puts a hole and punctures the pride but remember, you are bringing the reference from the same group of people when they are not "Qualified" in first place as per your theory to uphold the Birth by Varna!

To make it simple, even as per your explanation, the verse still does not convey the message of yours that, "Varna is by birth" and nowhere i see the "And" part in the verse connecting "Vedic ceremonies and Birth" and the translation can simply means "Vedic ceremonies birth" which actually means Dvija and not the yonic birth! Lord Krshna gives this message

manushyanam sahasreshu
kascid yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam
kascin mam vetti tattvatah BG 7.3

It is not "Brahmana" but manushyanam and everyone are engaged in "Vetti Tattva" meaning useless theories as the fact. Expanding this verse, it also means it is not that simply by taking birth, one is near to the feet of Lord and at least the orthodox families who follow undiluted practice of Hinduism knows for the fact that, it is the Samskara that you do that purifies and takes you near to the Lord qualifying you for His mercy! If that is not the case, Krshna will not say, 'thousands among the men' where he can simply say 'thousand among the Dvija' or "Brahamana" etc. So, giving such meaning to "birth" alone makes someone near to Lord is nonsensical and that is not the intelligence of SD and such theories lives only in the minds of selfish people who are still in the process of enjoying the material desires as stated in the verse and who are "Far away from the Lord" even though they for namesake could have taken the Dvija.

Also, not listing the shudra in the varna class creates the social imbalance and now the Purusha is attributed for creating a class that is not "qualified" to reach him back ever! Attributing flaws to the "Purusha" is a sin and only a "Papa Yoni putra" commits such sin is also the SD's verdict.

Hare Krshna!

[hinduism♥krishna]

Dear grames , you can not disprove that verse in any way .

There , it is mentioned the three varnas . Because in varnashrama dharma , the first three are considered as the highest births . The last varna shudra is not included in noble birth . Know that shudra too are the hindus.

To make it simple, even as per your explanation, the verse still does not convey the message of yours that, "Varna is by birth" and nowhere i see the "And" part in the verse connecting "Vedic ceremonies and Birth" and the translation can simply means "Vedic ceremonies birth" which actually means Dvija and not the yonic birth!

Namaste , grames.

Unfortunatelly , I think You don't know about sanskrit and its grammar . .So you don't know how to interprete . In sanskrit , sometimes 'cha' is not used while writing the verse . 'Cha' has many times a hidden usage . But the fact about that verse is different.

Even if we accept ' vedic ceremonies birth ' , it will be certainly a foolish thing . Because ,

The both words are not used as nouns . 'shrauten ' is used as a suffix 'ten' .So it means ' by birth' . Besides , janmana also means ' by birth ' . Moreover , 'by' suffix is used for both words . So the two words automatically gets connected with 'and' word .According to sanskrit grammer , in such cases ' cha ' is generally neglected .

[grames]

A simple "A" missing in your verse makes so much difference but what is missing is, the POINT! which you seems to brush it aside because it is so much opposing to your belief! My Sanskrit knowledge is so limited but at least it helps me to connect with the Acharya's pronunciations rather than dictionary ones.

My interest is not to change your false ego but to point out the fact that, your messages missing the POINT and attributing a lot of flaws to VarnAshrama and also to the ultimate Purusha! Looking at your avoidance of those points, i can simply conclude that you have no answer to them.

Hare Krshna!

[hinduism♥krishna]

A simple "A" missing in your verse makes so much difference but what is missing is, the POINT! which you seems to brush it aside because it is so much opposing to your belief! My Sanskrit knowledge is so limited but at least it helps me to connect with the Acharya's pronunciations rather than dictionary ones.

My interest is not to change your false ego but to point out the fact that, your messages missing the POINT and attributing a lot of flaws to VarnAshrama and also to the ultimate Purusha! Looking at your avoidance of those points, i can simply conclude that you have no answer to them.

Hare Krshna!

Dear, grames.

Because, what you have posted your claims don't get contradicted to varna by birth.

Really, You have no any answer to my verse. You are mixing that verse with pride etc and so on......blah blah

First you ignored the verse and tried to give your personal opinions. Then after knowing the true meaning of that verse, you tried to distort the meaning of that verse . Later on after knowing fallacy of your distortion, You are saying that i should accept your opinion.

I don't think I should reply on your personal opinions.

hari krishna

[grames]

Dear HK.,

No i am not insisting or demanding you to accept my opinions anywhere. No hard feelings and take it easy.

In fact, i did not distort your verse or its meaning and letting you know that, it is not conclusive as you are dreaming and your conclusion will impart "partiality" to the Purusha which is considered a Sin! May be you have to open your eyes and admit these questions to participate in a discussion.

Also, most of what i have posted are not my personal opinions and i have to my ability, connected the dots for the complete picture. Those who can see, can see it and those who cannot see, will not and i am aware of that.

So, take care.

Hare Krshna!

[hinduism♥krishna]

Dear HK.,

No i am not insisting or demanding you to accept my opinions anywhere. No hard feelings and take it easy.

In fact, i did not distort your verse or its meaning and letting you know that, it is not conclusive as you are dreaming and your conclusion will impart "partiality" to the Purusha which is considered a Sin! May be you have to open your eyes and admit these questions to participate in a discussion.

Also, most of what i have posted are not my personal opinions and i have to my ability, connected the dots for the complete picture. Those who can see, can see it and those who cannot see, will not and i am aware of that.

So, take care.

Hare Krshna!

Your posts contain too much fallacies ,like You asked me why shudra varna is not listed in that verse ? Is this a valid question ? Besides you don't even know that upanayan sanskar is only for first three varnas . All your arguments are like this .

You intentionally are not accepting that verse. The meaning of that verse is very clear. Yet you are constantly saying that I am misinterpreting.How rude !

In that verse narda has highlighted two things :

1) By birth and having vedic sanskaras ,thery are progressed very high in attainment of bramhan ..They are very fit for attaining vishnu. (This is secondary meaning we get) ..this is related to the subject varna by birth.

2) Now the main meaning. : Those who have taken birth in highest families, most times they get misguided because of the karma Khanda of veda.Because they don't know the hidden meaning behind various sacrifices and worships .They think that they are for attaining of higher lokas and pleasures .In this way ,they get misguided about fruits of action. In reality, various sacrifices and worships are not for attainment of pleasures. Their only aim is to make the mind self-controlled. They teach the tyaga due to which mind gets purified slowly. After this, that person entirely gives up the the karma-khanda of veda .He remains satisfied only in the self. After getting mind purified, one thinks about the subject of atma and bramhana ie dnyana khanda and the journey of moksha starts from there.

This is the interpretation . Only the person who knows the secret of three subjects of veda can interprete that verse in broad sense. From your posts, it is clear that you do not know the hidden meaning of three subjects of veda. Only the knower of veda can understand this , probably you can't.

So who would accept your personal claims ? You called me sinful.How rude! You are just typical iskconite who belives that those who don't accept their philosophy are sinful and demons. Know that this is our varnashrama dharma . It's very bad thing that nowdays castless persons are saying to varna people what is varna and what are its basics.

That verse is crystal clear and we don't want yours personal interpretations. That's it.

Take care!

Hari krishna.

[grames]

Not sure if you have a big gang sitting behind you to write some "hindu constitutional" rules identifying who can be labeled as "hindu" and who cannot be! or Who can attain the Brahman and who cannot be!

Its very clear, you now have to jump to personal opinions or identifying my versions as my personal instead of looking at the content. Look at what is said instead of who is said.

Ask yourself, why the Upanayanam is only for the three varna - What is the varna before Upanayanam and after the ceremony! There is an very important step in that where "Change of cloths" symbolically indicating 'new birth" to the body! Why something like that has to be done when the birth already determined the "Varna"? Upanayanam is not only the beginning of study or brahmacharya but also as the word indicates, the first step to the Brahma Vidya - the three threads being the Vow! (If you haven't gone through one, ask your family elders and also know for the fact that, your varna is not automatically Brahamana after upanayana and it can be Vaishya or Kshatriya. Why not a Shudra? Because, it is only the Sudhra who is waiting to be identified by the Guru for his Varna and as plato says, it is impossible to train a weak as a great soldier or wicked in to sadhu. Ask for the meaning behind the very ritual and ask why it is performed if birth has already sanctioned such merits.

The vedic system always believed, those who gets the yoni birth are always Shudra but it is only the Samskara they perform, qualifies them as the one of the three different classes!

janmana jayate shudrah samskarairdvija uchyate

There is no qualification before such Samskara and there is no restriction who can perform such samskara. Birth in the noble family is never questioned as gift of punya but that is not an automatic "qualificaiton" and the arguments are only from those WHO DO NOT FOLLOW anything that makes them such qualified or do/did any Samskara other than a symbolic upanayana for pride but still want to be identified as "SOLE PROPRIETORSHIP" of Vedic Science!

Teaching higher and lower in the creation of Brahman shows your distasteful understanding and it is even more selfish when you are talking about Advaita where the oneness is preached. This is not my personal opinion but your lack of understanding the philosophy and also your strongest desire to hold a sinful theory where the Brahman gets a devesha and only people with demonic thoughts can do such things.

Hare Krshna!