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Thread: You are GOD - part 1

  1. #21
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    Re: You are GOD

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post

    Where are the two things ? Your post gets contradicted when scriptures say jiva's attributes, bondage and liberation, are not real.
    Please produce the scriptural texts to support above lines.

    If bondage and liberation are not real, what are you trying to preach here and to whom you are preaching your theory?

    Be happy with what 'is' .

  2. #22
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    Re: You are GOD

    Namaste h(luv)k, thank you.

    If we are Brahman (viz God) then why are some people so full of mean character, and want to hurt devotees? I understand that yes, one can be in illusion or maya, but even maya cannot explain this to me.
    If you truly know the Brahman, please explain this. The astika school says the Vedas are the final authority, but what are even the Vedas if Brahman is a mirror, and all things we see including ourself are reflections only? Are the Vedas created by Brahma, or by Brahman? If Brahma is only speaking the Vedas but not creating them, who is then listening? And more importantly, if Brahma was speaking the Vedas (as in past tense) then do the Vedas have a beginning and an end? If so, then when did Brahma STOP speaking the Vedas if they have an end? If they have no end, then Brahma would STILL be speaking the Vedas, and is this speaking simply repeating the same set of verses over and over again in circular motion, or is each verse afresh and new and not yet heard or it may be known but said in a new way with every passing moment? If it was to be with a beginning and then an end, how long did it take Brahma to speak the Vedas? One day of Brahma?

    This is all relevant to me, because it brings to me the question of the Brahman (verse dwaita) to the forefront. Why do I say so?

    Becaise if someone has not had Direct vision of Brahma creating the Vedas today, then the Vedas must have been spoken to the end. Does one then need to repeat it to the next? And why so? If we are Brahman? Why would that moment of Brahma be fixed in time, and not always also be there as a reflection in the mirror? Are the Vedas dependant on origination? If not, then Vedas would not be words or heard, they would be continous, a state, immediate, and not created at all. A word has a starting point, a middle, and an end. Does truth also?

    Directly to the point, how many words are in the vocabulary of the Brahman? If there are a fixed number of words, then the Vedas have a beginning, middle and end no matter how many combinations you make with those words, there are only so many combinations even if the total is a very large number. If there are not a fixed number of words, then the Vedas have no language, there are ever new words afresh, unlike the previous. But then that means what is heard is constantly changing, then it is of no beginning but only becoming. If Brahman is of that nature, then Brahman is a Buddhist.

    Am I becoming? If I am, that what I am is changing. So if I am Brahman, then Brahman is also changing. Yes? Help me understand.

    Your ever well wisher.

    Jai Hanuman.

    Om Namah Sivaya

  3. #23

    Re: You are GOD

    praNAm ShivaFan

    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    If we are Brahman (viz God) then why are some people so full of mean character, and want to hurt devotees?
    According to Kevala Advaita, both mean people and nice surrendered devotees are ROBOTS OF BRAHMAN.

    The CHOICES are:
    1. Reprogram the Robot to be a pure devotee
    2.
    a) Teach/program the Robot to step aside so that Brahman can shine through it, speak, act, walk through it.

    b) Ignore the Robot


    A while ago I wrote in "God in Hindu Dharma" that if the anya deva-devatA are Self-Realized, then they can step aside so that Brahman alone can shine through if that's what the devotee wants. Brahman is the antaryAmi of both.

    Otherwise, the devatA's costume is kept active. Guess who is wearing the devatA costume in that case? Brahman.

    Similarly, those robots on this path can just step aside so as to not come in the way, and let Brahman shine thru'

    This is explained by the masters as "salt doll dissolves into ocean"
    or unknowingly expressed by people as
    "Parameshwar was acting through that person"
    "
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  4. #24
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    Light Re: You are GOD

    Quote Originally Posted by jopmala View Post
    namaste

    1. just like one wave of sea can not become a whole sea

    2. just like a ray of sun can not become the sun

    3. just like a single spark can not become the ball of fire

    4. just like dahi can not become milk
    Namaste , you have not understood even the basic concepts of dharma .Jiva is the self considered with mind , intellect and pranas . While atama /bramhan is often considered in its pure form.

    If the existence of single wave is an illusion , if existence of single ray is an illusion , then how you can consider wave is different from sea ? Scriptures consider individuality ,difference and form as the products of maya. There is a wave , is the false appearance .In fact there is bramhan only .

    Bramhan is undividable ,without a second , then how can you take the ray out of sun ? Upanishadas say "who considers any diversity in bramhan ,goes from the cycles of birth and death " . " the one who considers himself distinct from bramhan doesn't know."

    According to your imagination ,if we take jiva as real thing ,then "neti neti " logic would be a joke. That logic has negated all the mind's thoughts about soul. It has negated the mind ,intellect and prana [constituting jiva which causes individuality] which are attributed on atma/bramhan by ignorant persons.
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 26 November 2013 at 08:49 AM.

  5. #25
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    Smile Re: You are GOD

    Quote Originally Posted by sanathan View Post
    Please produce the scriptural texts to support above lines.

    If bondage and liberation are not real, what are you trying to preach here and to whom you are preaching your theory?

    Be happy with what 'is' .
    There are many scriptural supports .Ok , I tell you the conversation between shri krishna and uddhava .Let's see what shri krishna wants to say on this topic

    etadachyuta me bruhi.......ek aevati me brhamaha ( bhagavat puran 11.10.37)
    Meaning:
    O Achyuta, please tell me the answer to my question. You are the greatest in capacity to know the nature of questions. I am confused, whether Atman is always free or always in bondage?

    ( before that uddhava understood that krishna is atman of all.Then another question arises in mind of uddhava He thought in mind like this – “If you, the Lord Shri Krishna, become Jeeva but it is only you, then we have to believe that all the bondage of worldly life is applicable to krishna only”. )

    Then lord replied :
    "buddho mukto eti vyakhya gunato me vastutah
    gunasya.......maya bandhanam (BG 11.11.1)

    Meaning:“The bondage or the freedom is not actual for me, but it is according to the Gunas,and as Gunas belong to Maya, there is neither liberation nor bondage for me.

    Explaination :Actually, in atma there are no such states as bondage or freedom, It is all the effect of the action of Gunas, and they are not related to soul.
    In Atmic Nature, there is no bondage and no freedom. By the action of Gunas, the Gunas seem to be bound or to be free.
    Gunas are within Maya and atma is totally distinct from Maya. If at all unreal can nullify the Real, then we can say that people get drowned in the illusive waters of mirage!
    If by the fire painted in a picture, towns will be burnt, or people will have monetary transaction exchanging the heap of money seen in a dream. Or if the reflection of the Sun would swallow the Sun, or if shadow would tie a man, or the sea will be sunk in the mirage – then only, by the three Gunas soul could be bound. If the tongue would have hair, if trees will grow on the palm, if a mountain would go into an eye, only then atma would be bound by the Gunas.
    If a man starts acting according to the provocations of Gunas he becomes identified with the activities of those Gunas and that person experiences the delusion that he is either bound or he
    is free, which is not real.

    Now you will say that though we accept that Atman is different from the Gunas it is natural that if Atman is functioning within the Gunas he will be suffering from their modifications and
    Vikaras.

    But my dear, consider one example. By contact with fire a pot becomes hot, water boils by contact with the hot pot and in the hot water rice is boiled. Similarly Atman does not get any modifications by Gunas, just as the fire which is the root cause is distinct and unaffected.
    An actor acts out the role of a blind man but, he is personally not blind. Similarly though Atman is seen to be functioning with the Gunas he is eternally beyond forms and qualities.
    Gunas are the qualities of Maya while Atman is really pure. The
    Gunas and the Atman have no relationship with each other.
    Gunas are the qualities of Maya while Atman is really pure. The
    Gunas and the Atman have no relationship with each other.
    So it is absolutely impossible that Atman can become bound and when bondage disappears the sense of freedom also disappears. So krishna as Atman is really beyond the states of bondage or freedom.

    For example in the face of man and in the reflection of that face in the mirror no dirt exists but the surface of the mirror has the dirt which creates an impression that the man's face and the reflection have that dirt.
    If that dirt is to be removed it is the mirror which needs cleaning and you have not to rub the reflection on any grinding stone. It will be absurd.
    Similarly there is no defect in the Jeeva or Shiva. The defect is in the mind and if that mind is purified then both the bondage and freedom are given a send off.
    Similarly, all the defects which arise due to the activities of the Gunas are belonging to ingnorance, but foolish people using their crude intellect, think that these defects belong to the soul .

    When the defects so far developed are withered away by the power of Sattwa, the defects caused by ignorance disappear, and ignorance itself becomes pure wisdom; and Jeeva does not remain Jeeva, but it becomes Shiva, the cosmic God.
    When both the names, viz., Jeeva and Shiva become united in krishna, then nothing except himself alone exists in the universe either in the human kingdom or in the other Kingdoms. If krishna is looked at as Jeeva, then krishna is Jeeva; and if he is conceived as Shiva, then krishna is Shiva.Really, krishna is not one, and he is not many. There is no other to experience him. Krishna is his own experience as well as the experiencer. Here, you may raise a doubt that - "if you say that you are everything i.e. Jeeva and Shiva then why is it that only Shuka and Vamadeva are declared to be free? Why others are called jada (bound) Jeevas?"

    there is no difference between any man in bondage or Wasishtha and Vamadeva etc who are supposed to be free.
    From the point of view of persons who are free, the whole nature is free. They do not see any bondage anywhere. So, distinct mention of Shuka or Vamdeva has no place there.

    "shokamoho sukham.......tu vastavi (BG 11.11.2)

    Meaning: By the force of Maya there is sorrow, enticement, pleasure and pain and the birth of a man in his body. So
    sorrow, enticement, pleasure and pain etc are as unreal as our experience in the dream.

    Explaination: Dream is of a short period but in that duration a man experiences that he has taken many births in many kingdoms of nature. As that is unreal so is the perception of this worldly existence unreal. This false appearance is dissolved immediately and in the body there is great havoc! When people say, "Gone! I am dead, No no etc that is the sorrow.There is a pot which is slightly having a hole. There is reflection of moon in it. A child thinks that it is a shining diamond and picks up the pot. What happens? Water in the pot oozes out with the reflection of the moon. The child begins to cry. That is sorrow.Or otherwise when the child tries to hold that reflection of the moon in his hand it is not possible. When the child begins to cry that is called sorrow. When a man begins to break the mirror in order to catch the reflection in his hand the mirror breaks and the man thinks that he is dead, that is sorrow.What is enticement? When there is pride and a sense of belonging about a thing, which is not really existing, it is called enticement. At that moment, the sense of ‘my’ arises.A foolish man sits guarding the waters of mirage with a hope that he will get a good production of bananas from that water.If anybody just saunters nearby he gets up to fight with that man and thus there is hallucination by which the man loses common sense.Similarly parents are hoping that they would enjoy some happiness when their son will be adult and earning, but that son simply deserts them! This is false hope and enticement. By seeing in the clouds a whole city appearing as an illusion a king may think about assembling a great army to conquer that city.Similarly the pride about our body is false and the attachment to the body is very difficult to get rid of . Somehow every animal is proud of its body. This is indicative of attachment.In short ‘I’ and ‘Mine’ are the parents of the enticement and by that attachment people are completely deceived and deluded.
    A poison may taste sweet. Similarly people are attached to the objects which are very much liked by them and when those objects are continuously available for enjoyment it is called pleasure.The ecstasy which people feel in the contact with those objects is called pleasure and when those objects are not available it is called pain. That is the absence of pleasure.Sorrow, enticement, pain and pleasure are the causes for birth and formation of body for the Jeeva and because of the pride of that body the soul has to take many painful bodies.
    The Jeeva is born by the force of his acute desire at the time of death. Either by his attraction or by his dislike or hatred the soul receives another birth with the same tendency.
    The serpent and the mongoose maintain their hatred of each other even in death and are born as the very images of that hatred. So, the desire which is prevalent at the time of death decides the next birth.The Vedas and Puranas also declare this fact that a man gets his next birth according to his prominent attraction or repulsion at the time of his death.As regards Maya, please understand that just as the shadow of a man is dependent upon his figure but it is false, Maya is unreal though it appears on Brahman.Just as there is only one mind in the dream which adopts various forms, so the very different perceptions of one spirit, the manifest creation of animate and inanimate beings.In short, since the whole world has no real existance, where is happiness? And where is sorrow? You see, there is no shadow when there is no body!How can we tell whether it is black or fair which actually has not been born? Everything is like a dream. The world is not existing at all. In these two verses the Lord has counter-mined the argument about the separateness of various things. Now he is telling about the recognition which arises out of experience which is not detrimental to truth.For instance, when we press the eye by our finger we see two objects, two Moons; but there is only one Moon in the sky. Similarly there is false appearance of forms in the formless Reality.

    "vidyavidye mama tanu......mayaya me vinirmite "

    Meaning: O Uddhava! Know that the liberating knowledge and the ignorance are my two bodies or potencies, specially brought into being by my Maya and have existed without begining , have no real existence ; they appeared as the cause of the bondage or release of the Jeeva (bearing body).

    Explaination: That is called liberating knowledge or Vidya which is experienced by self knowledge only and by which our mind is always in the state or in the sense – “I am Brahman”, and this knowledge dissipates ignorance. That state of mind is Avidya or ignorance where a man always feels that he is a sinner, he is damned and it always breeds doubts. One of the two puts the Jeeva in bondage and the other cuts the bondage. both these are krishna's own potencies which are eternal.
    You may ask me - "krishna is the total spirit and thus there are no projections or attitudes in him. krishna eternally exist without any qualities or duties. So how can there be any powers or potencies as your attributes?
    There is no need to raise such question because that Maya of hari which is beyond all Gods and Men gives birth to all these powers.
    If we call it real it is destroyed in a moment and if we call it unreal it is actually felt and it is that Maya which has created the name and form with which all people get involved and play!
    So we cannot call it real or unreal and therefore it is called indescribable. That means it cannot be told in words. It is taking all the care of the Vidya and Avidya as if they are chicks under her wings. Vidya and Avidya are not created today. They are beginingless and are the two facets of Maya which create the apparent bondage or freedom.
    You will ask – Who is this Maya? Your imagination is Maya. In that imagination the ideas of bondage and freedom come into existence.
    Now I shall tell you about the states of bondage and freedom. Avidya, the ignorance is in full power in the man who does not know what it means to worship krishna and also does not know what is his devotion. And he is the maternal home of the self-knowledge, who is merged all the twenty four hours in hari's worship and is very alert in the matter of devotion to hari. The self-knowledge is always increasing in his mind.
    Ignorance leaves the place where there is great enthusiasm about devotion to hari. The devotees are confident that the knowledge of Brahman enters their life only. krishna has so far described, for establishing the faith and devotion what is the cause of bondage and what is the means to attain freedom. On this Uddhava said – If you say that the two powers of bondage and freedom belong to Maya, it follows that it is Maya who is the giver of freedom. But O Krishna! How is it possible? Because if liberation is bestowed by Maya, why should one do devotion to you? Why should one worship you? So, O Lord! What is the truth in this? Please tell me definitely.
    Upon this, the Lord said to Uddhava, “Please see! Shadow has no separate existence of its own. Similarly, Maya has no existence of its own. So, how can it liberate anybody! The Lord Vishnu, who is the controller of Maya, is the only giver of the freedom. It is He who cuts the bondage of Jeeva, and bestows final freedom. (Sayujjyata)
    You may argue – “All the Gurus definitely teach that due to ignorance and through the selfish actions, creating a heap of karma – there is bondage to the Jeeva, and that bondage is cut by self-knowledge and the state of actionlessness. This teaching is based on the Vedas. Is the Lord Vishnu a responsible doer? No. Then How can He be the giver of freedom! But Do not at all give place to such a doubt. Because it is the Lord Vishnu who is also the Guru and the meaning of Vedas is also Vishnu Himself. Not only this but Vishnu is also the penance, the maintenance of peace and control of senses etc.
    Over and above this, please note that the knowledge which the disciple learns by his intellect is also another form of Lord Vishnu. Please remember this, then you will know that it is the Lord Vishnu who bestows liberation on the devotees. The Lord Vishnu is also the state of trance which is equal to and the result of liberation. It is
    also Lord Vishnu who takes the form of the bliss and joy in the state of trance. Please also note that I am that Lord Vishnu who is the Eternal Brahman, the wholeness of Paramatman and krishna himself by kindness release his devotees from the net of worldly life.
    Now the Lord is categorically denying the claim that, based on the term – who bears the body ‘शरीरणाम-it is implied that the Jeeva is bound as a normal fact. (The term occurs in the verse No.3 above)
    He is specifically answering the question implied in the query of Uddhava, whether only one Jeeva is bound as well as free at one and the same time.

    "ekasyaivva man anshasya...... cha tathetarah (11.11.4)

    meaning: Though I am one, O highly intelligent one, it is in relation to the Jeeva alone, which is imagined as a part , which is my reflection that bondage existed from time immemorial through ignorance and it is in that context only that the other state of freedom is possible through the knowledge given by me.

    explaination :
    In the case of fire, it is sometimes very small and sometimes large according to the fuel which is a little or more and a tiny spark of it may go up in the sky which is a small part of fire, but in the case of Atman, there is no such thing as decrease or increase; so, how can we conceive any division or part of the Atman? Uddhava was endowed with that kind of intellect with which he was able to reach the knowledge of Brahman. That is why the Lord Shri Krishna called him “highly intelligent”.Calling him like this with love, the Lord said, “Listen, pay attention. The subject is deep. It must be properly grasped by you.Thus, the Lord Shri Krishna patted Uddhava on his back, and said – I have great love for you and therefore I am telling you this most secret thing.By patting the back of Uddhava He infused His own power in the mind and body of Uddhava, and thus He made him capable of grasping the knowledge of non-duality. He said – O Uddhava, though there are many lamps, the light is one and the same, similarly throughout all the three worlds, there is one soul or Jeeva.Two flames can become one by fusion, but two lamps cannot be united into one, because separateness is only possible with inanimate physical things, while there is oneness, there is unity in the case of spirit.There may be many pieces of sandalwood but the fragrance is the same, similarly I, the Paramatman, the Universal spirit, become Jeeva everywhere.

    Here you might say – “If you, the Lord Shri Krishna, become Jeeva but it is only you, then we have to believe that all the bondage of worldly life is applicable to you only”. If you believe like this, please know that, it will never happen! It is like the vital breath which makes the physical body function but is not affected by any changes in the body, but remains aloof and independent.
    It is by my reflection that Jeeva is apparently living in the subtle body, though it is independent, and to say that it is bound is a distortion of a false nature, imposed upon Jeeva by your ignorance.
    There is partly enclosed space in a pot which is called “Ghatakash”, but the space is not destroyed even if the pot is broken into pieces. Similarly as Jeeva, I am non-destructible.Though there is a reflection of the Sun in a little pool of water, the Sun Himself does not come down and fall in that pool. Similarly I am unpolluted though I appear as Jeeva. As the Sun is aloof though His reflection falls in the water in the pool, so also, I am only apparent in the subtle body, but I have no bondage of the false experiences which seem to be taking place there. Now, no further explanations are necessary. I am Shiva, the principal and the reflection is Jeeva, the apparent secondary thing. This is the fact about the Jeeva and Shiva. There are many reflections of the Sun in the various collections of water, such as a lake, a well or pools; but in the sky if we try to see various Suns, we can only find one Sun. Similarly, the state of Jeeva which creates a sense of various articles, on the matrix of one single object of Shiva, is an unreal appearance. Now please know pure essence of the philosophy of this path of Bhagawata!
    When there is reflection of the Sun in the water in the pool, various qualities like still, change, clear, unclear etc which belong to the water, are imposed upon the reflection. Actually Shiva has no bondage at any time. That is the work of ignorance and it is imposed upon the Jeeva. So, the division as Jeeva is actually false. Ignorance and knowledge show the bondage or freedom by their karma and Gunas.The ignorance and knowledge show the state of bondage and freedom of eternal nature with regard to the Jeeva only.
    When a reflection of the Sun falls in the water, it is only the reflection that is affected according to the movement or stillness of water. The Sun has absolutely no relation with these changes.
    A fire-fly in the darkness can never see the Sun. Similarly the bondage or freedom of the Jeeva has nothing to do with Atman.The sky seems to be drowned in the water but it is not wet. Similarly, Atman is aloof from ignorance and it is always free. Only in the soul there is illusion that one is bound and the other is free. I shall prove this also. Please listen. If one thousand pots are filled with water, so many reflections of the Sun are seen in all those pots, but the condition of water is not the same in all the pots. It differs from pot to pot. The reflection of the Sun appears to be flickering in the pot where water is having some movement and the surface is not still, but the reflection in another pot, in the still water, is not affected by the water in the first pot. That is still only. If by bad luck, one of the pots is having a small hole in it, the whole water in that pot oozes out and the reflection also disappears, while all other reflections are not affected.Similarly one, whose subtle body is dissolved by the grace of the Guru, becomes one with the Paramatman, while others remain caught in the prison of their body.
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 26 November 2013 at 10:47 AM.

  6. #26
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    Re: You are GOD

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Namaste , you have not understood even the basic concepts of dharma .Jiva is the self considered with mind , intellect and pranas . While atama /bramhan is often considered in its pure form.

    If the existence of single wave is an illusion , if existence of single ray is an illusion , then how you can consider wave is different from sea ? Scriptures consider individuality ,difference and form as the products of maya. There is a wave , is the false appearance .In fact there is bramhan only .

    Bramhan is undividable ,without a second , then how can you take the ray out of sun ? Upanishadas say "who considers any diversity in bramhan ,goes from the cycles of birth and death " . " the one who considers himself distinct from bramhan doesn't know."

    According to your imagination ,if we take jiva as real thing ,then "neti neti " logic would be a joke. That logic has negated all the mind's thoughts about soul. It has negated the mind ,intellect and prana [constituting jiva which causes individuality] which are attributed on atma/bramhan by ignorant persons.
    namaste

    As you know I do not understand basic concepts of dharma I therefore request you to be kind enough to teach me some lessons on dharma . just tell me while everything is illusion and there is brahman only , whom you address by 'you' in your caption " you are GOD"
    2. I expect your views on the verses I quoted from Bhagavat Gita.

    3. what is the source of power of maya that can have products of its own

    4. while there is only brahman who is said to be nirvikara nirvishes etc, who is maya then

    5. verse 8/XV of BG says " when the lord of the body discards the body and enters into a different body, He takes these ( five senses and mind) and goes very much as wind which carrries off the particles of scents from their sources" - please tell me who is the lord of the body here. since according to you jiva constititues mind intellect and pranas then what is the body refereed to in this verse

    6 you say existence of single ray is illusion. Please go to the verse 12/XV of BG which says " The radiance of the sun that lights up the whole world that which is found in the moon and in fire- that radiance, know this belongs to Me"- what is the meaning of this verse

    7 verse 13/XV of BG says " Entering the earth, I sustain all beings with my vital energy and nourish all plants and tress, becoming the moon which is the giver of water and sap"- Are these all illusion ?

  7. #27

    Re: You are GOD

    Namasthe

    Our Institute created Game of Life chart to indicate various levels of life which can finally merge with the Ultimate. As per scriptures Markandeya is the one who achieved this highest state.

    http://www.imperience.org/Research/R...ameoflife.htm#
    This is created for sadhakas to evaluate where one is where to reach finally.

    With Regards
    Rama

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    Re: You are GOD

    Thank you!
    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    praNAm ShivaFan



    According to Kevala Advaita, both mean people and nice surrendered devotees are ROBOTS OF BRAHMAN.

    The CHOICES are:
    1. Reprogram the Robot to be a pure devotee
    2.
    a) Teach/program the Robot to step aside so that Brahman can shine through it, speak, act, walk through it.

    b) Ignore the Robot


    A while ago I wrote in "God in Hindu Dharma" that if the anya deva-devatA are Self-Realized, then they can step aside so that Brahman alone can shine through if that's what the devotee wants. Brahman is the antaryAmi of both.

    Otherwise, the devatA's costume is kept active. Guess who is wearing the devatA costume in that case? Brahman.

    Similarly, those robots on this path can just step aside so as to not come in the way, and let Brahman shine thru'

    This is explained by the masters as "salt doll dissolves into ocean"
    or unknowingly expressed by people as
    "Parameshwar was acting through that person"
    "

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    Re: You are GOD

    Dear,

    I simply asked you the question to show scriptural evidences to support your below statement :

    "scriptures say jiva's attributes, bondage and liberation, are not real."

    Then you went ahead to iterate Krishna's words about his nature , but not about Jeeva's nature and given your own interpretations, I don't care them.

    I just want the scriptural statements (note: Shruthi is first hand pramana, you can use prasthana thrayi).

    I hope you know the meaning of JEEVA.

    Common sense is enough to know whether jeevas have bondage or not, if they are not bound to karma, then whole sasthras are useless.

    If bondage is not real , then what are you trying to do with sasthras? just throw them out .. and be happy. you got my point?



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    Thumbs Down Re: You are GOD

    Quote Originally Posted by sanathan View Post
    Dear,

    I simply asked you the question to show scriptural evidences to support your below statement :

    "scriptures say jiva's attributes, bondage and liberation, are not real."

    Then you went ahead to iterate Krishna's words about his nature , but not about Jeeva's nature and given your own interpretations, I don't care them.

    I just want the scriptural statements (note: Shruthi is first hand pramana, you can use prasthana thrayi).

    I hope you know the meaning of JEEVA.

    Common sense is enough to know whether jeevas have bondage or not, if they are not bound to karma, then whole sasthras are useless.

    If bondage is not real , then what are you trying to do with sasthras? just throw them out .. and be happy. you got my point?


    namaste ,

    know that krishna had already indentified himself with atma.So whatever you say atma,bramhan,paramatma ,it is the same thing.Then uddhava asked the question whether atma is always free or always in bondage ?

    Then krishna replied
    : “The bondage or the freedom is not actual for me, but it is according to the Gunas,and as Gunas belong to Maya, there is neither liberation nor bondage for me. "

    [ here lord krishna is not considering atma is different from me. Just use your common sense if you have.
    1) if uddhava is asking the question about atma ,why krishna replied with 'me' ? It only proves krishna is atma only.The real nature of krishna is atmic nature.It is stated thousand times in bhagavat purana.

    2)If we think according to your point ,then why krishna said " I have [appearant] bondage according to gunas which belongs to maya "


    Furthe he says:
    "shokamoho sukham.......tu vastavi (BG 11.11.2)

    Meaning: By the force of Maya there is sorrow, enticement, pleasure and pain and the birth of a man in his body. So
    sorrow, enticement, pleasure and pain etc are as unreal as our experience in the dream.

    ( Don't you know it is referred to atma ? krishna said that pain ,sorrow etc are unreal as our experience in the dream . By considering this example ,he wants to say that as bondage in the form of pain ,sorrow are within the field of maya ,it is unreal as a dream.It has no absolute existence.So considering me who is atma ,have bondage would be a foolish thing. )


    "vidyavidye mama tanu......mayaya me vinirmite "

    Meaning: O Uddhava! Know that the liberating knowledge and the ignorance are my two bodies or potencies, specially brought into being by my Maya and have existed without begining , have no real existence ;
    they appeared as the cause of the bondage or release of the Jeeva .

    ( Did you read this ? "
    they appeared as the cause of the bondage or release of the Jeeva .
    Liberating knowledge and ignorance are maya which have no real existence . In this way krishna says " bondage and liberation are not real things .They just appeared due to maya.


    further he says :
    Though I am one, O highly intelligent one, it is in relation to the Jeeva alone, which is imagined as a part , which is my reflection that bondage existed from time immemorial through ignorance and it is in that context only that the other state of freedom is possible through the knowledge given by me.

    (Krishna says " though I am one , I am imagined in part as a jiva . . krishna says that this bondage and liberation are just the reflections of him [ ie they are superimposed on krishna/atma/bramhan] . )


    Of course ,to understand this one should have a sharp intellect . This is part of bramhavidya.This in not easy to understand . I don't think any dwaitian would understand what krishna have said in these 4 verses .

    hare ram .
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 27 November 2013 at 08:24 AM.

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