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Thread: Follow brahman with form and attributes

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    Follow brahman with form and attributes

    Namaste
    There is a common practice among us to claim that our way of worshiping is the best way but the fact is that there are different ways and all doctrines eventually agree and meet at one point and that is called para tatta which is sat chit anand Bhagavn says in whatever way men worship me, they in all ways follow my path. There are two things one is tattva and another is marg. Tattva is same i.e. satchidananda but to reach the tattva there are different margs. The following verses from Gita reflect the truth.
    BG 14 of IX – “great souls always do kirtan my glories ( satatam kirtayanto mam) firm and persistant in their dedication devotedly bowing to me, they worship me” clear description of bhakta and bhaktivada.
    BG 15 of IX – “ There are others who worship me with jnan yajna ( Jnanayajnena cha’py anye yajanto mam upasate), still others worship ME AS ONE ( akatvena) NON DUAL ?), AS SEPARATE( prithaktvena) DUAL ?) and in MANIFOLD FORMS ( bahudha visvatomukham)
    BG 24 of XIII – “ Some realize the self in the self by the self resorting to medition ( dhyanenatmani pashyanti kechid atmanam atmana) others by betaking themselves to the path of knowledge ( anye samkhyena yogena) still others by following the path of action ( karmayogena cha’pare).
    BG 25 of XIII – “ others again not possessing such knowledge take to worship as they have heard from others” ( anye tvevam ajanantah shrutvanyebhya upasate)
    from the above verses of Gita it is clear that the different ways of realization such as Dhyana yoga, Karma yoga, Jnan yoga and Bhakti yoga were prevailing even before appearance of Gita.
    bhagavan says in 11 of IV –“ In whatever way men worship me , I favour them in the way they seek me. O parth, men in all ways follow my path ( ye yatha mam prapadyante, tams tathai’va bhajamy aham --------)
    It may not so happen that all the ways are so easy to practice or follow. This has also been cleared by shri Krishna in verse 2 and 3 of XII. Shri bhagavan says that worship with form and attributes is both better and easier whereas the goal of the unmanifested or Brahman without form or attributes is difficult to attain therefore those who sets their thoughts on the unmanifested have to face a harder task. On the other hand it is so easy for those who sets their thoughts on sagun sakar bhagavan that shri Krishna says “ what ever man gives me in true devotion whether a leaf, a flower, a fruit or water, I accept that gift of love from the pure soul”
    Therefore it is bhaktivada which follows the form and attributes that is lila. Bhakta does not believe that this creation is untrue or human life is just dream or illusion. Bhakta believes that Brahman is one but brahman is transformed into all that is present in this universe. He has transformed himself at his own will . In other words Brahman has expressed himself in the form of universe that we see.He is Ananda that is why there is happiness and pleasure in this universe This conception is parinamvad , jivanvad sukhavad or Lilavad .
    On the other hand those who are mokshvadi mayavadi jnanvadi or dukhvadi do not believe in ultimate reality that is Brahman with form and attributes . According to them sri Krishna with forms and attributes can not be regarded as ultimate Brahman. They say this samsara is full of sorrows/pains. jagat mitghya , projection/imposition of maya that is illusion created because of ignorance. Untill and unless one attain the knowledge of nirgun nirakar nirvishesh Brahman can not achieve moksha or liberation.

  2. #2

    Re: Follow brahman with form and attributes

    Namaste.
    its far easier to focus on Brahman with attributes. But Brahman is always whole, within Brahman all is....
    Since Brahman is always whole, its not unreasonable to understand that Krishna was telling us to worship all nature, rather than the consciousness beyond all perception.
    Brahman is Infinite sat chit ananda, energy and consciousness that is ultimate Amanda or fulfillment.

    Consciousness is totally without attributes, Krishna's eternal nature and the life behind every form. Consciousness exists in all nature(which has attributes) like the wettness in water or the heat of fire, one cannot exist without the other because they are really the same thing.
    Nature is energy, which moves and produces qualities sensed by the quality of a brain.

    Its very hard to grasp the imperceptible consciousness, it is vastly easier to focus on the energy of nature. Krishna meant all his lower form, not just one minute part of Brahman.
    "Names and forms are like bangles and braclets and Vishnu is like the Gold." - Adi Shankara

  3. #3

    Re: Follow brahman with form and attributes

    Quote Originally Posted by the sadhu View Post
    Namaste.
    its far easier to focus on Brahman with attributes. But Brahman is always whole, within Brahman all is....
    Since Brahman is always whole, its not unreasonable to understand that Krishna was telling us to worship all nature, rather than the consciousness beyond all perception.
    Brahman is Infinite sat chit ananda, energy and consciousness that is ultimate Amanda or fulfillment.

    Consciousness is totally without attributes, Krishna's eternal nature and the life behind every form. Consciousness exists in all nature(which has attributes) like the wettness in water or the heat of fire, one cannot exist without the other because they are really the same thing.
    Nature is energy, which moves and produces qualities sensed by the quality of a brain.

    Its very hard to grasp the imperceptible consciousness, it is vastly easier to focus on the energy of nature. Krishna meant all his lower form, not just one minute part of Brahman.
    I see this differently.

    I think "Brahman is All" is only one aspect of Brahman, like "Brahman is Consciousness" is one aspect of Brahman. Brahman is also IN all. I think it is wrong to stress Brahman is All and not in All at the same time. Brahman is in every aspect of Reality. Thats is why it is perfectly okay to worship Brahman in any aspect. Only wanting to worship Brahman as All or all of Consciousness is what actually distances us from Brahman. But Brahman IN all is very near, and makes Brahman easy to relate too. But all and all of consciousness are mere abstract entities philosophers are so in love with. They only exists in our mind as concept, not in our experience. I think it comes from this tendency of priests to present ones God bigger than all others. Mine is bigger than yours, mine is all. I read this pretense a lot between the lines.

    Brahman is not only All, it is also Nothing, it is as well in the biggest as the tiniest of things. To see Brahman in all is not achieved by stressing Brahman is All. It is only alienating us from consciously experiencing Brahman, turning Brahman in an abstract concept for all but enlightened people. Because only to those that have experienced Brahman does it have meaning. This way we cloud that Brahman is all around us and can be experienced all around us. Brahman then becomes this "thing" that can not be experienced until we are enlightened, which actually is the horrible thing we see in so many monotheistic religions. People then only talk about God. They have all kind of equations to explain God to others. God becomes abstract.

    Worshiping Brahman as All is illogical for another reason. Because Brahman created division so Brahman could worship Brahman through sacrificing Brahman in the first place. Hinduism is all based on this first sacrifice. There is only Brahman, so can anything but Brahman make a sacrifice? Can anything but Brahman be sacrificed to? Can anything but Brahman be sactificed? How can anything not be Brahman? If Brahman is only regarded as All, no sacrifice can be made. How can you sacrifice what is already Brahman? To worship and sacrifice to Brahman we have to accept Brahman as divided. And what is more natural to us than that? That is how we experience reality, as divided. The sacrifice is a way to overcome this division.

    In the Vedas, each play their part. Man sacrifices the Soma to the Gods. Brahman being in all of them, but divided. The first sacrifice was made by Brahman by dividing itself. The reality we experience owes its existence to that sacrifice. To celebrate that, we sacrifice like Brahman. But we do not direct our sacrifices to the all of Reality. All does not allow direction. I feed my whole body, but all food only enters through the mouth. Is it only the mouth that I therefor feed? Of course not, It is however only the nature of the mouth to accept food. As it is in the nature of the hands to bring the food to the mouth.

    In the same way we worship the Devas. It it because a Deva is the whole of Brahman? No, but it is in the nature of the Devas to be worshiped. The Devas are immortal but can not feed themselves. Man is mortal but can feed himself. In the Natural order it is mans task to worship the Devas and the Devas to be worshiped. If we do not worship the Devas we start worshiping man, either ourselves or others, then things go wrong. If we only worship Brahman as all the same happens. Then too man takes the place of the Devas. Then the prophet becomes worshiped and people start acting with inflated egos in the name of the prophet. Only the worship to the Devas keeps man sane. Without the Devas man either starts to believe he is the direct servant of God or wants to be a God. Only with the help of the Devas does man reach his full potential.
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 02 December 2013 at 03:34 PM.

  4. #4

    Re: Follow brahman with form and attributes

    Namaste
    Brahman is one and non dual
    Sat(truth,reality,energy)
    This means Brahman is all tattvas, upadhis, and otherwise finite qualities, because sat is the primary substance, although Brahman is whole and nondual, this aspect is similar to praktiki in samkya dualistic philosophy.
    Chit(consciousness, awareness)
    This means Brahman is the conditionless observer in all qualities, this aspect is the Atman or purusra(as in sankya) it is static and unchanging, it is often compared to the wettness in water because no matter how the energy changes, the consciousness stays the same.
    Ananda is fullfilment because if its not fulfilling , then its not it.

    What else could it be... the transient modes of Brahman can hardly be said to have its own existence.
    "Names and forms are like bangles and braclets and Vishnu is like the Gold." - Adi Shankara

  5. #5

    Re: Follow brahman with form and attributes

    Mahashakti, best translated as Mother-Nature, is very good way to worship.
    In the west they call it pantheist worship. .. pan means all, and theos means God, so pantheist means all is God.

    In order to properly practice pantheism called in yoga abeda bhakti, is to objectify Nature, limited qualities, and natural phenomena as Mother, accept natures influence on the jiva as divine will imposed on illusory individuals... by praying to all Nature as equal parts of a partless whole, a mind shifts from a child of the Universe(literally one and many) to non existence, in which only God exists, the body is just a quality of nature so there is no me to do,only Mother-Nature.
    This form of worship is popular not only in Hinduism, but MOST non Abrahamic faiths like Taoism, native Americans, European shamans, neoplatoists, modern pantheists(followers of Spinoza) Wiccan religions(probably the fastest growing religion on this planet) Shinto, etc. Etc. Etc. The list goes on indefinitely.

    In a Hindu context Nature worship is performed by useing the various forms as murthis or idols for the omnipresent consciousness. It is usefull because forms to focus worship on exist everywhere on this planet. No temple required.
    "Names and forms are like bangles and braclets and Vishnu is like the Gold." - Adi Shankara

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    Re: Follow brahman with form and attributes

    Namaste sadhu

    see, what ever arguments you put in support of advaita philosophy or mayavad, I do not disagree with you but just think what options are there before you. only two options that is either brahman without form or brahman with form. sri krishna says brahman with out form is very difficult to worship since neither you can define nirgun nirakar brahman nor Maya. but here is brahman with form that is sri krishna swayama who can be very easily worshiped even only a piece of leaf or flower can satisfy him. how close sri krishna is to a worshiper. see , is it right to say that only people having knowledge, education of high level has the right to worship brahman. how can a common man being illeterate be able to understand the high voltage thinking of advaita philosophy. should they not worship brahman if they do not understand advaitavada ? Therefore sri krishna is saying about the easiest way to worship him.
    If any one follows the advaitavada which is full of knowledge of nirgun brahman, he also reaches to the same destination where a common man can reach by following sagun brahman and bhakti marg.
    2. who says brahman is not whole. I am saying that brahman has transformed himself into this universe not by any one but at his own will. This universe is the body of brahman that does not mean that he has been cut into pieces. It is he only in everywhere and nothing else. if simple gold becomes ornaments you can not say that ornament is not gold. raw gold has no demand to a woman but when it becomes ornaments it carries the fullest demand to her, she can easily use it and enjoy the ananda out of it

  7. #7

    Re: Follow brahman with form and attributes

    Namaste the very point of this thread is that it easier to worship quality rather than nirguna.
    What is said is simple, worship formed nature, ALL forms not just Krishna's body,but his body and more!
    "Names and forms are like bangles and braclets and Vishnu is like the Gold." - Adi Shankara

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    Re: Follow brahman with form and attributes

    Quote Originally Posted by the sadhu View Post
    Namaste the very point of this thread is that it easier to worship quality rather than nirguna.
    What is said is simple, worship formed nature, ALL forms not just Krishna's body,but his body and more!
    Namaste

    Some people like to eat directly by putting their spoon in the mouth and some like to eat indirectly by moving their spoon round the body and then putting spoon in the mouth but food is to be put into mouth only. I think sri krishna is telling Arjune direct and easiest way to reach him. unlike you we are fool and believe that bhagavan comes into being or incarnate himself or is born and reborn from age to age for dharmasamsthapanarthaya ( BG-5,6,7 of chapter 4) Therefore we worship him with rupa and guna. however if you dont mind I would like to have your learned views on verses 1 , 2 and 3 of chapter 12 of Bhagavat Gita

    your brahman may be without form and qualities but my bhagavan is with form and qualities

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    Re: Follow brahman with form and attributes

    Namaste


    There is a need to acquire jnan or knowledge. Jnan means many things and many of those are not necessary in Bhakti yoga rather at times they may hinder with the practices of bhakti yoga. For example, when one meditates on Brahman or bhagavan as nirguna then there is no place for bhakti or divine love. Unless one is praying or meditating on Brahman or bhagavan on saguna that is with form and attributes then and then only one can develop bhakti or devotional love. Further according to advaita Vedanta, one considers that this universe that is the creation is nothing but maya that is untruth but those who follow the bhakti marg, they never consider this creation is maya or untruth, they consider it real and in it bhagavan is playing his lila. If the universe is considered as maya or untruth then the lila or the divine play of bhagavan also becomes untruth not only that jivas, this universe and even bhagavan become just dream. Obviously in the practice of bhakti yoga this jnan or knowledge of advaitavada is of no help. Also in BG ( 13/8) it is stated “Janma-mrityu-jara-vyadhi-dukha-doshanudarshanan” meaning “birth-death-aging-illness-sorrow or misery” are also signs of jnan or knowledge. If these occupy the mind it may be difficult to develop love and respect for bhagavan or creator of this universe who is full of kindness, love and happiness. Even too much thought about these may bring about disbelief in him. These thoughts or jnan that is knowledge of course is not helpful to the follower of bhakti yoga.

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    Re: Follow brahman with form and attributes

    Namaste


    Vedas teach “ Atmaiba idam agra aseet eka eva” meaning Brahman is one and there is nothing else.But Brahman developed a desire ( Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1 : 4 : 3) “ So boi noiva reme,tasmat ekaki na ramatey ; sa dvitiyam oicchat. Sa akamayat jaya me syat. Sa ha etavan asa- yatha strimapumshou samparishvaktou ; sa enaneva atmanam dvedha apatayat, tatah paishca patni ca abhavatam” means “ He was not happy at all. Therefore, people are not happy when alone. He desired a mate. He became as big as man and woman embracing each other. He parted this very body into two. From that came husband and wife. Thus this body is one half of oneself, like one of the two halves of a split pea. Therefore this space is indeed filled by the wife. He was united with her. From that men were born.”
    In Taittiriya Upanishad (2 : 6) it is stated “ Sohakamayata vahu syam” means “ I am one now but will become many”. Taittiriya ( 2 : 7) “ tadatmanam svayam kuruta”
    Mundokopanishad ( 2 : 1 : 1) “ yatha sudiptat pabakadvisphulingah sahashrasah pravabantey sarupa tatha ksharat vividah soumya bhavah prajayantey tatra chaibapiyanti” means “ This is the truth . As from a blazing fire thousand of sparks similar to it in nature issue forth, so many fold beings are produced from the imperishable and they verity go back to it again”
    The swarup of that purush from which the jivas are originated according to taittiriya Upanishad is “ Raso boi sa …………… “ He is rasa-svarupa. having attained this joy jivas become blessed.
    In Taittiriya upanashid ( 3 : 6) we read “ Anando brahmeti byajanat. Anandadheva khvalimani bhutani jayantey. Anandena jatani jibantey. Anandam pratyayantabhisambishantiti” menas “ Brahman is bliss ; for brahman bliss, indeed all these beings originated ; having been born, they are sustained by bliss ; they move towards and merge in bliss.”
    Gita has also supports these sruti vakyas
    I have pointed out these above sruti-vakya to show the svarupa of para Brahman or paramatma, svarupa of jiva and relation between Brahman and jiva. Therefore the relationship between jiva and Brahman is like that of fire and spark. Brahman is everywhere and in everything. Brahman is bivu but jiva is anu. Jiva is just a part of it. Brahman is the parmatma that is atma of all atma. Jiva is originated from Brahman, move towards Brahman and will eventually merge in Brahman. Fundamentally Brahman and jiva are the same and one therefore it is natural that they will attract each other.Jivas loves bhagavan and similarly bhagavan loves the jivas. Jiva wants to realize bhagavan similarly bhagavan can not do without jiva. It is like there is no motherhood without children, no husbandhood without wife. In the same way without the jiva there is no bhagavan. Bhagavan without jiva becomes just a tatta. Jnan marg and yoga marg helps us to realize and understand this tatta. The tatta which is avyakta, akshar, anirdeshya, achintya or ashima has no creation or lila. jiva can not relate with this tatta.
    But when Brahman takes the form,when he becomes the creator,preserver and destroyer of this created universe then we understand him a little easily.We can think about him.This is the path of bhakti to realize him. If we come closer to him through the ideas of being a servant, son, friend or spouse to him then this is path of love by which we can realize him. jiva is nitya dasa , nitya sakha or nitya kanta of sri Krishna. nitya dasa of nitya vastu can not be anitya. The relationship between unmanifest and manifest, prakriti and purusha or jiva and Brahman is always a sweet because he is all sweet like madhu that is honey.

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