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Thread: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

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    nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Namaste Indiaspirituality Amrutji

    To continue my discussion with you I have shifted my post from " you are God part I" to this new thread.

    If you don’t mind, I want to have some more discussion with you. if you interested you can respond my to doubts. I will be happy
    1. If maya is power of Brahman and since jiva is Brahman then why not maya be regarded as power of jiva ?
    2. If we consider that there is no other entity besides nirgun Brahman and this creation is just like a dream ,actually no creation exists it is a projection etc and so my question is for which creation nirgun Brahman by taking adhar of maya becomes sagun
    3. If maya is ajnan and if maya can be crossed by jnan then how can this concept of jnan and ajnan be regarded as a power. can any creative power be crossed over by just knowing it in scriptures ? Is it not indirect jnan ?
    4. Acoording to you mAyA is beginning less, hence it cannot be said that it was created by Brahman or Ishvara. mAyA cannot stay without Brahman. My question is if it is so then can Brahman remain whole or becomes dual here. Further when Brahman exists independently that is when Brahman is nirgun and before Brahman takes adhar of maya where does maya stay in between so that adhar of it can be taken by Brahman ?
    5. According to you Maya is projector and Brahman is screen. who is the operator here ? again projector means having the power of projection of its own but maya is the power of Brahman. can any power act without its holder’s will ? the concept is shakti and shaktiman and one can not be separated from other. how can shakti operate or maya project without shaktiman or without Brahman. projector and screen are two different independent equipment for picturisation but you can not separate maya from Brahman
    6. On the one hand you are saying mAyA is dependent upon Ishvara but actually what is happening . There is nirguna Brahman and nothing else then maya comes ( from where ? ) Brahman becomes sagun that means without maya Brahman can not become sagun then who is dependent on whom. next ,according to you though Brahman become sagun but everything that is creation or projection is done by maya and not by sagun Brahman. how this can happen. how can power act independently. why don’t you say sagun Brahman is creating or projecting everything not maya
    7. Since maya can not stay without Brahman then we have to consider that both nirgun Brahman and sagun Brahman are co existing otherwise if there is only one Brahman that is nirgun where will maya stay without Brahman ? brahman without maya that is nirgun and brahman with maya that is sagun exists together in the same state. Is it ?
    8. Is this maya ( which you are talking) the same which is also found in Gita ? in BG chapter 7 verses 4, 5 and 6 bhagavan says this is my eight fold divided nature which is insentient. I am the origin and also the dissolution of the whole world. then again in chapter 14 verse 3 says that prakriti is my womb on that I cast my seed whence spring all beings. suprsingly advatin says this world is nothing but dream. Is their dream world and world created by bhagavan according to Gita matching . above all everything is done by sri Krishna whom you reagard as iswara or sagun Brahman but you say creation or projection is done by maya .
    9. You say this maya can be crossed over only through jnan ( in jnan maya ends) but Gita says only bhakti can help to cross this maya and nothing else ( chapter 7 verse 14
    10. If we make a sequence we find first nirgun Brahman next maya and then third one nirgun Brahman + maya that is sagun Brahman. Now if maya can not exist without Brahman ( definitely nirgun Brahman) then which is correct 1) there is no nirgun Brahman because maya is always with Brahman 2) maya is independent because nirgun brahman can have no power. 3) nirgun Brahman and sagun brahamn exists in the same state at the same level otherwise we shall not get maya since nirgun brahman can not have it.

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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Namaste Jopmala ji,

    You can call me Amrut. I will try my best to answer your doubts. Replying back may take time because of busy schedule.

    1. If maya is power of Brahman and since jiva is Brahman then why not maya be regarded as power of jiva ?
    We will explain 'I am Brahman' in different way.

    Lets say 'I is Brahman'. Shall I extend this statement further by saying 'I is not jiva'

    Advaita is about searching 'I'. Is 'I' associated with jiva or is 'I' something else. Search ends when 'I' is realized as pUrNa vastu (Brahman).

    If we think, I am Jiva, then after some meditational . yogic practice, Jiva gets transformed into Brahman, then what we generally think that 'How can I be Brahman, a Jiva cannot never be Brahman' will be right.

    Here there is a priori (presumption) that 'I' is Jiva i.e. 'I am Jiva'.

    Advaita, finds the root cause or truth behind this very statement that 'I am Jiva'. According to Sri Ramana Maharshi, you will have to ask the question, 'Who am I'. Search ends into you realizing yourself as Brahman.

    Kindly note that no transformation has taken place.

    If I assume that I am Jiva, it would mean that earlier I was not Brahman, which according to advaita is not correct as Atman / Brahman was already Brahman. Under wrong notion, it wrongly associated itself with Body and assumed itself as body. Ego means a sense of individuality. When Ego is destroyed, mind too is destroyed. With no sense in individual existence, naturally 'I" as ego is destroyed and the real 'I' (first person - Brahman) is revealed.

    Lets take the question again

    1. If maya is power of Brahman and since jiva is Brahman then why not maya be regarded as power of jiva ?
    The difference between jiva and Brahman is that, Brhaman is not deluded by mAyA, while Jiva, which is under ignorance is deluded by wrong association with what is non-self.

    Only after dis-associating with non-self, by being a witness, and realizing one's true nature, one can say from direct experience that 'I am Brahman', not before.

    Saying before would be like, seeing a snake, as saying that 'I am seeing a rope'. This is not correct.

    -----

    Apart from this, I would like to share a few points.

    There are different ways of explaining.
    Explanation is given keeping in mind mental make-up of questioner
    Explanation depends upon current mental status of question (and that of answerer, if he is not realized)
    One question can have 2 answers and both are correct, but for person with different mindset.
    Answer is given by keeping in mind the ability of questioner to put solution provided into action or practice.


    There may be more factors, but these are what I can remember now.

    Remember that certain updesha-s or statements are updeshaka, they are like a destination to be reached e.g. thou art that.

    I humbly request you to please read my other posts in threads

    Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational
    Krishna never used ' Vaikuntha ' word
    You are GOD - part 1


    This will reduce my typing a lot.

    Let us understand basic terms:

    Reality, Truth, satya

    That which is eternal, unchanging, present at all times, immutable, undivided, infinite, knowledge is called as as real.

    e.g. Brahman

    Unreal, False, asatya

    That which do not exist at any time.

    e.g. rabbit horn

    MithyA

    That which is neither real nor unreal. This means that it is in between real and unreal.

    mithYA is that which is not totally unreal, but is not even real (eternal).

    In other words, mithyA is that which is not present at all times. But it can be experienced in any one state.

    mAyA is called as anAdi. This means that it is without beginning. but it ends in Jnana. mAyA is triguNAtmikA - that which has 3 guNa-s. Brahman is beyond guNa-s.

    Since mAyA ends in Jnana, Brahma sthiti, it cannot be real. We all know that truth is one. Hence there cannot be two things that can be true.

    In this sense, mAyA, though experienced in waking state, as real, ends in Jnana.

    Experience in waking state are not experienced in dream state and vice versa.


    2. If we consider that there is no other entity besides nirgun Brahman and this creation is just like a dream ,actually no creation exists it is a projection etc and so my question is for which creation nirgun Brahman by taking adhar of maya becomes sagun
    As I have earlier said, certain statements are our benchmarks. We will have to realize the truth.

    If we take ajAta vAda, then there is no creation. But ajAta vAda is for only those who abide in Self.

    When we actually experience duality, this world, thinking of it as mere mental projection or as an illusion is not acceptable. This does not mean that the above statement that this world is illusion is fallacy. We are not in a position to understand the reality behind this statement.

    As e.g. to explain would be

    in presence of Sun, the whole ecosystem runs. Sun does not do anything. Sun is a shakshi. Rest everything happens.

    Brahman and mAyA are inseparable. To do anything, you will have to take AdhAra of guNa-s i.e. mAyA, without mAyA, there can be no work. When Brahman is resting, it is called as nirguNa, when acting, it is called as sa-guNa.

    If we take all guNa-s or say 6 upAdhi-s from Ishvara (SaguNa Brahman), then what is left is nirguNa Brahman.

    I will requote your question.

    2. If we consider that there is no other entity besides nirgun Brahman and this creation is just like a dream ,actually no creation exists it is a projection etc and so my question is for which creation nirgun Brahman by taking adhar of maya becomes sagun
    Does this seem contradictory?

    First you say that there is no creation. But at the same time you accept that there is a creation. This is because we all experience this world, hence it is hard to think of it as mental projection.

    Let's take the word 'mithyA' into account. Please go back and read the explanation of terms mithyA, that I gave.

    3. If maya is ajnan and if maya can be crossed by jnan then how can this concept of jnan and ajnan be regarded as a power. can any creative power be crossed over by just knowing it in scriptures ? Is it not indirect jnan ?
    This question is also not clear.

    Just by mere reading nothing is going to happen. Hence this truth or transcending mAyA has to be done by nidhidhAsana or simply say meditation.

    How to transcend or cross over mAyA - by dis-associating with it. How? By being a witness and doing self enquiry or chant OM and merge in it's source (here the word 'merge' is said for explanatory purpose.

    4. Acoording to you mAyA is beginning less, hence it cannot be said that it was created by Brahman or Ishvara. mAyA cannot stay without Brahman. My question is if it is so then can Brahman remain whole or becomes dual here. Further when Brahman exists independently that is when Brahman is nirgun and before Brahman takes adhar of maya where does maya stay in between so that adhar of it can be taken by Brahman ?
    Brahman and mAyA are inseparable. Brahman can stay alone.

    By saying that there is no mAyA, means, mAyA is not experienced by a Jnani in nirvikalp samadhi.

    It is called nirguNa Brahman when it does not do any work. Advaita focusses on this Brahman, hence you will find statements giving importance to NirguNa Brahman.

    To explain in different words

    Advaitin associates with NirguNa Brahman and a bhakta associates himself with mAyA or experiences saguNa Brahman with the help of mAyA.

    Brahman and mAyA are both there. Is it necessary that Brahman has to do some work? Is activity compulsory?

    I said when Brahman takes AdhAra.

    More later.

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Namaste,

    You can take AdhAra as association, if the word is a misnomer.

    You must be aware of manifested universes. I think everything is latent.

    By Definition, NirguNa Brahman is said so when he is not doing anything.

    When you say, 'will', then it may be taken as saguNa Brahman. This word 'will' creation' etc is also for explanatory purpose. Else we cannot take it as illusion.

    If we take creation as real, then it should not end in Jnana, which, according to Advaita, is not true.

    I humbly request you to please reconsider all questions.

    To understand properly, we will have to study a sampradAya in systematic manner.

    Also the traditional teaching of adhyAropa apavAda has to be learned to understand those Gita verses.

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Namaste Amrutji
    I must thank you for your kind response but I am sorry I am not convinced. I am just puzzled due to so many contradictions in your reply

    first I find there are four entities that is nirgun Brahman ,maya , sagun Brahman and jiva. out of that, nirgun Brahman is only truth, sagun Brahman is apparent since it melts into nirgun by shading maya and jiva also ultimately becomes Brahman. But maya is different from these three entities because maya is not Brahman and also anadi or beginningless.

    Now see the contradictions are :

    1) (i) maya is anadi that is beginningless but it ends in jnan which means not starting point but has ending point (ii) Maya is the power of nirgun Brahman but nirgun Brahman is not the source of maya that is maya does not originate in nirgun Brahman (iii) though Brahman is nirgun but it can take the association of maya ( iv) Brahman can stay alone but Brahman and maya are inseparable (v) maya is the power of Brahman, it is inseparable from Brahman and maya is dependent on Brahman but Brahman has to take the association of maya to act (vi) maya can not act of its own because it is dependent on Brahman still it is said that projection imposition or delusion etc are done by maya. To me , all these are done by Brahman not maya since without Brahman maya can not act. (vii) though maya is beginningless not part of brahman but maya is not a separate entity . it depends on Brahman

    (viii) what is manifested universe. do you want to say there are manifestations of Brahman or delusion by maya. please confirm otherwise there will be another contradiction

    2) you say jiva is deluded by maya. I think you should say jive is deluded by Brahman since maya is the power of Brahman and not independent to act that is ultimately it is brhaman who is doing all these acts of projection imposition of delusion by taking the association of maya. If you agree that maya is independent and can act then your statement is correct.

    3) I understand your argument that ‘I’ is not associated with jiva but at the end of search ‘I’ is Brahman . please tell me whom do you call jiva I mean what constitutes the ‘jiva’.

    4) To me, as per your version of advaita, i) there is no nirgun Brahman since it takes association of maya which can not be separated from Brahman (ii) maya is independent since it is beginningless and is able to delude jiva (iii) Brahman has no qualities , all the qualities belong to maya since brahman by associating with maya become qualified that is sagun Brahman ( iv) brahman is not the controller of maya because maya is beginning less and not created by Brahman. even with the end of maya sagun Brahman also loses its identity (v) Brahman is not beginingless since it ends in jnan. ending point is also starting point. (vi) brahman is deluded by maya since jiva being Brahman fights hard to shade maya only to know its true identity that is brahman

    5) I think advaitavada or mayavada still unable to give a clear conception of maya and therefore conception of non dual entity of Brahman is not free from ambiguity . if you say being a member of particular sampradaya and for the sake of that sampradaya some conceptions though not clear have to be accepted without questioning, I respect that mindset and promise not to disturb you further. Thank you once again.

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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Namaste Jopmala ji,

    It is not that concepts cannot be questions, but some things are better not questioned, or say, I never thought about them, as I am more concerned of my own spiritual progress, let the world be created 1 day before my date of birth . I am a meditative creature and hence you may find me connecting with meditation and practical application.

    Also note that my own study is very limited and I have a weak memory. Only that which is required for my personal spiritual progress is important. Rest all I forget

    Let me try to answer your queries.

    If I say that Jiva or mAyA were created by Ishvara (be it saguna or niguna, let us ignore distinction between the two for time being), then it would mean that there was a time when there was no mAyA, no jiva and no samsAra.

    I have read somewhere in Shankara Bhashya (or may be in panchdasi) that mAyA and samsAra are beginningless. Hence I cannot say that there was a time when there was just NarAyaNa and then he created mAyA. Sometimes it is said form OM came mAyA. I will explain your first question later on about how Brahman GOT associated.

    Again, the problem may be due to the way in which a concept is explained.

    First we say it is illusion, then we say, Brahman 'Getting' deluded, we say Brahman 'associated' with mAyA (which means an action - to associate), then Brhaman 'became' saguNa, then Brahman 'created' the world. All these indicate actions - to associate, to get deluded, to create, etc.

    then there is another vAda - ajAta vAda, which says there is no creation

    Why is so much fuss about it?

    The answer is that the answers are given on adhekAra bheda. There is manda adhikAri, Madhya and uttam adhikAri.

    For manda adhikAri: aarambh vAda or pariNAma vAda are explained. E.g. milk gets changed into curd, etc, hence the creation is explained.

    For madhyam adhikAri, we can g ofurther and say this world is illusion

    For uttama adhikAri (who experiencesSaamdhi, but cannot stay in it for ever), ajAta vAda is explained.

    To one student we can say that - though a person becomes Jnani, he still has to enjoy / suffer his praArabhdha. Then to another we say, that there is no prArabhdha is also destroyed and that a Jivan mukta can quit body at will.

    Which one is correct?

    The answer is both, because of adhikAra bheda.

    Not all can digest when we say this world is an illusion or just a mental projection, hence for them, creation, delusion, etc theories are created. In the same way, laymen will not believe when he sees a Jnani suffering from a disease and hence we will have to explain them the concept of prArabhdha.

    So, the answer depends upon mental make-up and 2 answers can be quite contrary.

    So when I try to explain the process of creation, then it will definitely contradict -Brahma satya jagat mithyA and vice versa.

    Some explains of Adi Shankara emphasizing bhakti and karma kand.

    For example, in the Bhashya for the Ishavasyopanishad 9, at the end Shankara says: न हि शास्त्रविहितं किञ्चिदकर्तव्यतामियात् [Nothing enjoined by the scriptures can be unworthy of performance.] Of course, it is another matter that the Mundakopanishad Chapter I - Section 2, for example, has extensively criticized the karma portions of the Veda.
    The Bhashya in the Brihadaranyka Upanishad 4.4.22 where the mantra: तमेतं वेदानुवचनेन ब्राह्मणा विविदिषन्ति यज्ञेन दानेन तपसा अनाशकेन itself speaks volumes on Shankara's respect, regard and devotion to the veda pUrva bhAga. He concludes the discussion thus: एवं कर्मकाण्डेन अस्य एकवाक्यतावगतिः [In this manner, that is, the relevance of the Veda PUrva-prescribed nitya karma that are meant for acquiring chitta shuddhi, the Moksha-teaching Jnana KANda becomes aligned as one 'complete shAstra'.] Thus, for Shankara, the Veda pUrva bhAga is an indispensable element in the attaining of the goal of the Upanishads.
    In the Bhashya to the Brahmasutra 2.3.41 - तदनुग्रहहेतुकेनैव हि ज्ञानेन मोक्षसिद्धिर्भवितुमर्हति [ The attainment of Moksha is possible indeed through the Knowledge owing ONLY to the grace of Ishwara.
    Source

    If we take above explanation as authentic and correct theory, then what about the verses in which Adi Shankara has said that the world is mithyA? And what about GauDapadAcArya’s KArikA?

    I think this is creating confusion. It also makes one think that Adi Shankara’s theory is inconsistent.

    Let us take e.g. of Sun. This e.g. may not be a perfect e.g., but will help us understand some concepts.

    Sun and it’s warmth (hence the rays) are not separable from Sun. You cannot expect Sun to emit cool waves. Sun can only give light, not darkness. The whole eco system of our earth works because of Sun (sun rays), climate change, day and night, motion of earth around Sun (earth’s orbit) etc everything happens because of Sun. What what doe sun himself do? It just happens.

    Rose attracts honey bees. It is the nature of Rose flower to naturally emit rose fragrance. There is no extra effort. Honey bees are attracted towards rose flower getting attracted by fragrance.

    This explanation can give rise to another set of questions. The answer is that this answer convinces the mind of questioner and he can proceed spiritually. Later new doubts may arise and appropriate answer can be given.

    If I give explanation totally from pArmAthika saya, then eventhough I may convince you or win an argument or emerge victorious in a debate, it is not going to help you or me. It I the win of intellect and ego. What I am interested is how can a person progress spiritually.

    Hence there are PrakaraNA grahta-s, when Gita, then Upanishad-s and lastly Brahma Sutra-s are to be studied in this order. Then there are other texts like ASTAvakra gItA, Yog VasisTa, etc are to be studied. This is step by step rising of disciple higher and higher.

    As one progresses higher, old concepts are replaced by newer subtler one, often contradicting earlier concepts, only with the intention to raise disciple to the next level or say further increase purity.

    From Br. Up. Bhashya given above and fomr Tai. Up. 1/11 bhashya, we can see that Adi Shankara did supported Karma Kand and also bhakti. For both, you cannot do karma kand by thinking that this world is just an illusion. Hence the theory of advaita is to be applied only when a person gets inwardly pure enough to renounce the very karma that gave him inner purity and become qualified to walk the path of 4th ashram, the path of renunciation.

    --
    Answers

    (i) (ii) and (iii) are already explained

    (v) mAyA is dependent upon Brahman for it’ existence. Brahman can exist without mAyA, but not vice versa. Dependecy is explained in relation to existence and not ceation. Again mAyA is Brahman’s power, hence it is his very own.

    While acting, he is called as sa0guNa Brahmana. While resting, it is called as nirguNa Brahman. Both as aspects of same Brahman.

    (vi) is explained in e.g. of Sun

    (vii) answer given in (v)

    (viii) Brahman is substratum. Again the definition of Real has to be counted. Since this world ends, it is not real. Hence we have to take it as delusion of mAyA and not actual creation. Brahman appears to be manifested as this world – this is said from pAramArthika satya

    More later. Short of time

    Aum
    Last edited by Amrut; 08 December 2013 at 05:49 AM. Reason: added second quote
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Namaste Jopmala ji,

    My apologies for delay in response. I am involved in another thread.

    What is jiva?

    Before answering the above question, please understand that answer is given from adhikAra bheda. You will have to consider vyavahArika satya and pArmArthika satya. Answers are different for person with different levels of consciousness.

    Also note that Advaita covers everything from Charvaka to Non-duality. charvaka can be made a good human being.

    Ok. So Adi Shankara has explained jiva in Tatva Bodh as

    The reflection of Brahman, which identifies itself with gross physical body due to ego is called as jiva.

    In my version of advaita , both nirguNa Brahman and saguNa Brahman exits. The definitions are based on 'activity'.

    How can they be both?

    Let's take an example of a married doctor - general practitioner.

    A doctor is the one who is checks patient and gives medicine. In short a doctor heals patients. In other words when a person is doing the 'job' or 'activity' of healing people, he is called as doctor.

    When a doctor, along with his wife is jogging on a beach in the morning, he is not a doctor, he is just a husband, as he is fulfilling his duty as a husband.

    A same person can be

    A husband to a wife
    A son to a mother
    A father to a child
    A brother to a sister or brother

    To all family members he will love, but the love for all is not same. A son wont look to his mother or sister or daughter with the same eye as he looks at his wife.

    Brahman has 2 aspects.

    NirguNa and SaguNA.

    For rest of questions, I think a systematic study is required, else it will create confusion. Depending upon mental make-up and inner suprity, certain answers are given.

    To one, I will say, Ishvara is the creator of this world.He created Om, from OM came mAyA and from mAyA came this world and us.

    To other I will say, this world is not 'created', but 'appears'. This creation is not eternal, hence accordingly to shastra-s, it cannot be called as real. IT is also not unreal. Hence it lies somewhat in between, that which is experienced only in one state of consciousness (waking) and not in dream or in deep sleep. IT is also not experienced in turiya avastha

    To uttam adhikAri - The world was never created, only Brahman exist.

    Though the above answers appear contradictory, they are not. They are correct for different people who are on different plane of evolution.

    It is perfectly right to say that it is saguNa Brahman to whom all prayers go, as to nirguNa Brahman it cannot reach. But the same NirguNa Brahman appears to us in the form of Guru and Ishvara as saguNa, for us to transcend us beyond guNa-s, beyond his mAyA and without their grace one cannot cross this terrible ocean of samsAra. All happens by the grace of Ishvara. Ishvara is the controller of mAyA, while nirguNa Brahman is the one one which mAyA rests, and saguNa Brahman is the one which has will to create, to help, to bless, to listen to our prayers.

    In other words, SaguNA Brahman is always rooted in nirguNa Brahman or in knowledge of Self. He is both nirguNa at the same time saguNa. The definitions are based on 'action'.

    For a uttam adhikAri, the thoughts or say questions of mAyA, creation, etc do not arise. Hence no need to explain all this. In every seach, in every action, he sees that there is someone who is questioning, who is the one who is questioning? Who is this 'I' ... and the search or say inner exploration begins. See he does not even think of the world. His mind is totally introvert. His consciousness is highly evolved.

    Are you getting it? I am getting repetitive.

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  7. #7
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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Namaste Amrutji
    I respect your view that your personal spiritual progress is important to you and I think we are all in the same journey of achieving spiritual progress in our own chosen way. So when we meet one another in the halt station we just try to exchange our own experience and views and again starts our own journey without following each other’s way. I do not think we are here to win a debate or something else. Hence I don’t want you to say that we are engaged in an unnecessary debate. If you want to continue I welcome if you don’t, no problem.

    1) what is in shankara bhashya or in panchadasi , it is there and I don’t have the ability to pass on comment on that but I like to mention Tattiriya Upanishad (2.6) which says “ I am one now but will become many”. Therefore initially it was one and jiva maya samsara were all included in one only. Gita also says that bhagavan has his apara prakrati and para prakriti. Though we say maya and samsara beginningless but initially there was one and that one is the source of all entities.

    2) According to you jiva is deluded by maya but my question is where is jiva. It is only Brahman and Brahman is deluded by maya to become jiva and now trying to get rid of maya to return to its original entity.

    3) I agree that the whole eco system of our earth works because of sun. day and night climate change motion of earth around sun etc everything happens because of sun but you miss the point what sun does himself. you also miss the point why honey bees are attracted towards rose flower. This is so because the sun and the rose has the qualities to do their work. sun is active always with all his power and rose also has fragrance to attract but you have made Brahman nirgun and nirvishes whereas Brahman is having all the aishourayas but you deny that aishourayas of Brahman and call him nirgun etc.you can not ignore the main point of discussion because it is nirgun Brahman whom you are attaching with maya to form sagun Brahman. According to you nirgun Brahman is the ultimate truth but this ultimate truth is just calm and quite and inactive. My point is how maya can be associated with nirgun Brahman

    4) see, my point here is there is only Brahman which is nirgun. now how can you attribute him power as maya. if nirgun Brahman can not become sagun without the association of maya then how can you call sagun Brahman as the controller of maya. You are just making some statements like “ maya is the power of Brahman” “ Brahman is the controller of maya” “ maya can not exist independently that is without Brahman” etc etc but you are not putting arguments how these statements are true. If maya is the power of Brahman , how you can separate maya from Brahman to become nirgun Brahman. How nirgun Brahman comes in contact with maya ( since maya is separate from him as Brahman is nirgun nirvishes) to become sagun whereas shastra says maya can not come on the way of Brahman. when you are saying that nirgun Brahman associates with maya to become sagun Brahman , do you mean to say that Brahman is being deluded by maya. how can maya which is dark or ignorance come with Brahman. these are the basic points you are avoiding by making some statements only.

    5) Now you are saying Ishvara is the creator of this world.He created Om, from OM came mAyA and from mAyA came this world and us.
    I want to ask you who is Ishvara ? Is he not sagun Brahman ? According to you Ishvara ,OM,maya, world and if you reverse the sequence world,maya,OM ,Ishvara but the fact according to you is Ishvara himself being created by Nirgun brahman with the association or adhar of maya.How is this argument.


    6) My basic question is if Brahman is nirgun ,it can not become sagun since you maintain that nirgun Brahman is the ultimate truth that is in turiya avastha where there is no maya no action. you can not start from bottom , you have to start from top from ultimate truth . you have to accept that both aspects of Brahman that is nirgun Brahman and sagun Brahman are ultimate. On the one hand you are saying nirgun Brahman + maya = sagun Brahman on the other hand you are saying sagun Brahman is the controller of maya since nirgun Brahman has nothing to do. Is this argument acceptable ? how can you put one aspect of brahman on the other.I do not understand why Brahman needs the association of maya to become qualified that means maya only possess the qualities but maya is not independent. if maya is not independent that is maya is always with Brahman then how is Brahman nirgun. These arguments only confuse me more and more.

    7) your example of a doctor only suggests that in whatever way you approach ,you will approach to the doctor only. husband son father brother all the aspects are same that is the doctor himself. there is no turiya avastha .it is his will to become what he is and when. he can do it because he is qualified by himself.

    8) My last point is you are bringing maya which represents darkness, ajnan delusive or illusive power with brhman which represents jnan truth light that means you are associating two opposite entities to form a third entity that is sagun Brahman. I simply do not understand how can you mingle day and night light and darkness jnan and ajnan.

    can you stand with all these arguments before Gita ?

  8. #8

    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Namaste
    Maya isn't a thing its simply a phenomena that
    occurs when an intellect,& sense organs are present.

    Maya is illusion, Maya is mistaking qualities of Brahman as separate objects. When they are really qualities of a singular nature.

    For example, Tod is not 'tod', Tod is a label/name we have given a limited quality of Brahman we (in relative terms) call a human being.

    The famous Advaita saying is;
    A person sees a snake in the woods but upon closer inspection it is revealed to be a rope.

    In the same way Tod doesnt exist, only the quality of Brahman called man.
    "Names and forms are like bangles and braclets and Vishnu is like the Gold." - Adi Shankara

  9. #9
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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Thank you Jopmala ji

    I would remain very busy upto 25th Dec. In between if I get time, I may reply.

    To just make a note that you had a long discussion with another member devotee ji as far as Gita is concerned

    So I suggest that we should not enter into this discussion.

    I will try my best to reply to your doubts.

    One e.g. comes to my mind, if it helps.

    mAyA are like glasses. Original nature of Brahman is with guNa, but due to the effect of mAyA, as we are within mAyA, we see Brahman through mAyA. Hence we see him with guNA-s. Remove the glasses and what you see is pure consciousness.

    The mystery of how can nirguNa can associate with mAyA, how the world is created, why should you rise above mAyA, when it is just an illusion and that jiva never exited it is only Brahman , etc remain. It will try to answer them, but please accept delays.

    A short answer is vyavahArika satya and pArmArthika satya. Why two are needed? again, will take time to answer.

    When you rise above guNa or say simply chant God's name, you are filled with his devotion and want nothing but to attain and serve Lotus feet of beloved God.

    Here, tamas and rajas are already renounced. Sattva remains. shat-sampatti and 4 qualities are already present within you. What we think of moving forward, in the end actually we come to know that all we did was disassociating non-self with Self.

    for sake of explanation dual tone, the world was created, brahman associated with mAyA, etc are used. If we do not use this dual tone and act of creation, student wont be able to progress ahead. But after a certain level of progress, you are given explanation in a different way. Only when you reach the truth, then you can reconcile all the approach and harmonize them to know that though they appear of opposite nature, the end result obtained is actually the same.

    More later.

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  10. #10
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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Dear jopmala and friends,

    This article just might help : http://walkwithmukunda.blogspot.in/#...appear-as.html
    NOTES: The Truth is One. Bramhan' or BhagvAn are the same Principle of Truth. That same One is the ultimate consumer of all experiences. [hint: The Lord is the consumer of all yadnya (sacrifices) ].

    Before rebelling at the shlokas that follow...
    PLEASE NOTE: The Absolute Truth = Self, AtmA, is nirAgas (ni = without rAga = affectionate attachment, possessiveness).
    It is the Ultimate Causal Truth Principle. There is no EGO. Even if you call the same Truth as BhagvAn. When one asks "How can the Supreme Truth think wrongly, have sammoha?" they are imposing an imagined EGO on this Purest Most Innocent Conscious Truth. MAyA is the Nature. Its Own Nature. There is really no seperate thing called mAyA. MAyA is like mother's pampering. Mother-in-Self wants the beings to eat nice food, have cozy blankets to sleep. But who is the bhoktA (experiencer) of all this?
    The Conscious Self. (The Self is the upadRshTA, anumantA, bhartA, bhoktA, maheshwara BG 13.23)

    If you leave a silver utensil out in the open, its surface will temporarily react with the atmospheric elements. Is this irreversible? Does that make silver stop being silver? Also, deep inside a thick plate of rusted silver, is pure silver. Only the surface is exposed to atmospheric mAyA. The earth's atmosphere is really a part of earth. If the atmosphere makes the earth's surface rust, deep inside it is pure elements and this is what helps the earth know I am earth, not rust.

    So... where does bhakti fit into all this if all is One? To be seen later.

    ...and, it will not take your shradhhA-bhakti away. How and why can be seen in a future post.

    As a pre-cursor to this article, some may want to read this first:
    Bhakti and DnyAna feed back into each other
    The first thing to do is to remove the ignorance of being what is not one’s True Self, and lose the ego : the ego that says I did this, conquered that and created thus – when it is really prakRti (God-given nature) that is simply working naturally.

    ***Let us worry about whether and why Bramhan' got deluded, whether we are jivas or devas, and one or many, as a second step. (Please see BhAgvat verses in the next upcoming post on this topic).

    A] Our first goal is to realize the eternal, steady, pure, faultless in us – the Self. Why should it matter if this Self is grand or small? It is pure that is all. How did Bramhan' get deluded? Whether one's take is
    jivas got deluded, not Bramhan'” or
    all are points in Bramhan so some points in Bramhan got deluded to think themselves as illusiory jivas
    how does it matter? They are both saying the same thing. If you say that jivas live in service of Bramhan'-seen-as-BhagvAn, these are again different waves of the BhagvAn consciousness talking to each other and Him. “The hand said to the toe – how are you this morning?” “The head smiled at the heart”
    mama mana mandire nisadina raho S S KRshNa murAri S Shri KRshNa MurA S S S rI S S S...
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 11 December 2013 at 10:13 AM. Reason: minor blog-post edits transfered
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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