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Thread: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

  1. #61
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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by jopmala View Post
    Namaste devotee and amrutji


    I thank you both for taking efforts to explain advaitavada so elaborately. By the way amrutji, I am not prabhuji because I am not a member of Gaudiya Math family ( ISKON etc). My vaishnabism is far different from their’s. I do not like sarcastic note.


    So far, we have lots of discussion on nirguna saguna Brahman and maya. I would like to draw your attention to Gita chapter 12 verse 2,3, where sri Krishna replies to Arjuna that “those who pray to me as the saguna form, they are my most beloved, this is my opinion.
    But again he says,those who pray to me as nirguna , they also realize me but it is not easy to pray to nirguna Brahman. So I would say to you that you pray to me as saguna Brahman.”

    In this verse of Gita, it is crystal clear that there is no difference in his aspects be it nirguna or saguna but difference lies in the ways to realize him. But advaitavada says that only nirguna Brahman is real and saugna Brahman alongwith its dream –creation is not real.My point is - when this verse is clear that Brahman can be realized by following as saguna or nirguna, why advaitavada say only nirguna Brahman is the ultimate destination. why saguna Brahman can not become ultimate destination. May I conclude that advaitin has no confidence on or does not believe in what sri Krishna says in Gita.Advaitin says that saguna Brahman is not ultimate destination rather it takes seeker to nirguna Brahman. Treating saguna Brahman differently from nirguna Brahman , Is this in consonance with the above verse of Gita.


    Please let me know why a person should follow nirguna Brahman as his destination as depicted in advaitavada instead of following what Sri Krishna ‘s opinion in verse 2-3/12 of Gita. It may be some one's personal choice. But it should be remembered that sri krishna has given a choice . After all sri krishna is not an ordinary deity. He is brahman . why should one disregard sri krishna's opinion.
    Namaste Jopmala ji,

    Sorry I didnt knew. I thought it is a matter of respect to call Prabhuji to the followers of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu ji

    As said by Kalok ji, We have seen in Gita that Krishna asks Arjuna to be a Karma yogi and not a SanyAsin, even though Sri Krishna has himself Glorified Jnana.

    Hence Krishna has asked us to do what is best for us and not what is THE BEST.

    We Advaitins consider names and forms under the realm of mAyA. Though Ishvara himself is above mAyA as he is the controller of mAyA, it is the art to see Pure consciousness in the names and forms, to attain complete non-duality and complete destruction of ego.

    IMHO, the easiest path is bhakti, this is what Sri Krishna is pointing out. But according to us, the final destination has to be non-duality, where Ishvara exists as Pure Consciousness, full of Bliss and peace.

    when one chants Sri Krishna's name, and one gets darshan, still one is in duality. But the devotee has given heart and soul to his beloved God, hence it is the duty of the Lord to take you to the highest form. It happened in the case of Sri Ramakrishna (via a Guru) and to Narasimh Mehta.

    Bhagavan has given two options. Difficult means difficult to majority of people. There are some souls, who are called as Yoga BrasTa JivAtmA, who are either born in rich family or in poor but pious family. Advaita can be taught to them, as they have already walked 80 kms out of total 100 km in their past life / lives.

    Advaita is direct path, while the path of bhakti is indirect means to realize non-duality. There is no difference between Krishna Tatva and his form, technically speaking and Krishna can exist without name and form as pure consciousness.

    The edge of bhakti marg is that anyone can follow it, but for Jnana marg, the pre-requisites are renunciation and strong desire for liberation.

    Bhagavan has not said that since Jnana marg is difficult, it should not be followed.

    We can see in Gita in various places where Jnana and Jnani is praised. We see the use of words like 'those who know', 'Jnani is my Atman (out of 4 types of devotees)'. Hence Bhagavan has also said that one can practice Advaita / Jnana Marg.

    Another instance is Bhagavan considering himself as OM. OM is given high importance in all 10 upanishads and other famous and not-so-famous upanishads. An entire Upanishad, Mandukya Upanishad, is dedicated to explaining OM. Meditation on OM is always that of NirAkAra Brahman. Bhagavan cannot go against upanishads. Bhagavan's teachings cannot be different from Upanishads.

    Advaita is also bhakti, but bhakti of NirAkAra, nirguNa Brahman, bhAva is abheda. what we get is peace.

    As one progresses on the path of Advaita by chanting OM, ego melts and one experiences detachment and sense of awareness heightens. There is a flow of peace and bliss. A person becomes very humble from within, as ego melts.

    This is my understanding.

    Both paths are very different in approach. Hence I can understand what Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has said. After one becomes mature, except God and guru, nothing can affect you. when the surrender is strong, being in company of anyone will not matter as you have surrendered to that supreme reality, who controllers the whole of the universe. He can easily protect you. Hence there is no fear to lose bhakti here.

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  2. #62
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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Regarding māyā , you can ask yourself this as the litmus paper test:

    Am I in the world or is the world in me ? Pending your answer you will know what end of māyā you are on.

    ....but of course I am in the world - then the world of differentiated awareness and the world of objects exist, and māyā has its full affects.

    ... the world is in me - then the ~world~ has dissolved and there is only Being; where can there be one bit of difference if everything is an extension of one's Self. This māyā then is of little import as it creates the world of differences.

    iti śiva
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #63
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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Om

    Namaste

    Why it is Bhakti - Karma - Jnana and not the other way round ?

    There is no multiple path to mukti. There is only one route - the route of Jnana.

    However to achieve this Jnana, the mind has to be tuned in a certain way. It is just like - for doing PhD, the person has to study hell lot of subjects to tune his brain and mind.

    The fact is that the PhDs we do are still percievable, provable wthin the realms of the five senses. The spiritual science is beyond that. So the tuneing of the mind is more important.

    Tuning of mind in thi case is a bit different as it is felt by the great Rishis (Chatainya, Ramana, Ramakrishna, the rishis of yore, etc, etc). It starts with belief & faith (bhakti). The starting point is bhakti - that is why the temples and the dictates from the gurus. "Have belief in what I say or Have beleif in what sciptures say". Basically the laymen does not have the capability to understand the complete impact of the information he is getting. So just believe and move on. Move on with what ?

    Here starts the karma. The karma of puja, rituals, food, festive occasions, ceremonies, services, etc. Now both bhakti and karma normally starts with sakama intentions - that is expecting something in return. However as the time passes by the tend towards niskama.

    This is the main objective of the first 2 steps Bhakti and Karma - to move people from sakama intentions to niskama intentions. This leads towards less desire and less ego.

    With this to barriers out of the way the information that is being continuously being fed to the person - slowly sinks in and the person moves from one information level to the next. The main objective is met. Another soul is accelerating towards mukti. In that journey the knowledge level transfrom from saguna to nirguna to mix of saguna-nirguna - actually it does not matter.

    In all these the bhakti rises, karma rises but the paradigm changes from sakama to niskama - from physical to mental.

    If you comapre with a PhD scholar - he also takes the same journey. He is given a research subject of which he does not know anything. He has only one thing - complete faith and belief in his guide. Blidly he does what is told and as he does he acquires more knowlege and the confidence. As he move along, he, at one point of time can move along without support and then at the end become complete master of the subject. Hisrespect for guide grows and his karma becomes more focussed and driven by knowledge.

    We all have to move in this way - through multiple lives. The one which we are seeing in this life is the after effect of the life in past life. That is why I am not Tendulkar or Ramakrishna or Chaitanya. What is visible of them today is not out of this life alone but a cumulation of several lives before.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  4. #64
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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Namaste
    In verse 12 of chap XIII of BG shri Krishna says “ I will now describe what one should know and knowing which one will attain to life eternal. It is Brahman, My attributeless aspect without beginning and end and said to be neither sat nor asat”. I would like to draw the attention of those who claim nirgun nirakar Brahman is ultimate. Here sagun sakar Brahman sri Krishna swayam saying that “ Matparam Brahman” that means my attributeless aspect. I think making differentiation between nirgun Brahman and sagun Brahman and also considering nirgun Brahman is ultimate reality and sagun Brahman is a product of maya is nothing but a crime. The basic point is nirgun Brahman having attributeless can not become sagun with the help of maya which is not an independent power to exercise by itself to create iswar or sagun Brahman. Calling iswar , sagun Brahman which does not exist ultimately is not acceptable . The question is why there is only one nirgun brahman but many sagun brahman like Ram, Krishna, ganesh etc et c. how is it ? if there is only one nirgun Brahman why there will be more than one sagun Brahman ? Since jiva is unable to understand nirgun nirakan Brahman as has been said by sri Krishna swayam in verse 5 of chapter XII of BG, they simply create confusion . advaitavad itself unable to explain maya properly.


    Further, verse 13 of XIII says that “ this nirvishesh Brahman which is neither sat nor asat , everywhere are his hands and feet. His eyes, heads and faces are on all sides and everywhere are his ears. He remains encompassing all”. (Same verse can be seen in swetaswar upa-3/16) .
    Verse 14 says “ He ( nirvishesh Brahman) seems to have the functions of the senses and is yet devoid of the senses, is unattached and yet sustains everything, is unaffected by the gunas and enjoys them” . This is how nirgun nirvishesh Brahman has been described in Gita where sagun sakar sri Krishna is saying that Brahman is my attributeless aspect. He does not say that I am the attribute aspect of ultimate nirgun Brahman. Jnan in Gita does not mean advaita jnan rather it is samkhya jnan. There is a difference between advaita and samkhya.

  5. #65

    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    good to know.

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