Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: Shrī Rg-Veda: A Theological Commentary On Varṇa

Hybrid View

  1. #1

    Veda and Varna: The Way, of Works

    namaste forum members.

    "Varna" is spoken of as "Arya Varna" in RgVeda, and the all important Vedic ancestor, Manu, attributed with the creation of Varna, is also spoken of in glowing terms in the Veda. Yet, the hereditary basis of Varna is no where mentioned, except of course in the "purusha sukta" in the last chapter of the Veda, where, though, the use of a relatively new style and words clearly suggest the hymn to be of a very late origin; fittingly, this sukta will not be discussed here (roughly as a rule, the chapter 10 should be quoted in support or against an argument only under rare circumstances).

    So exactly how is Manu seen in the Veda? He is a Vedic Hero, a leader, a pathfinder, and a great guide of the Aryans. He is not a Rsi, though. He is something even "higher". So which class is that?

    The class is "Rbhu"; indeed, the Rbhus are directly associated with Manu and told to be his "descendants". Also, the Rbhus were composed of a variety of people, and they occupied very key responsibilities in the society: these facts are also clearly mentioned in the Veda.

    According to Veda, Rbhus attained their greatness by bringing the initiatives of Manu (and also a certain "Sudhanvan", another great ancestor) to perfection. So clearly, the establishment of Varna is being talked about. It is further proved by Vedic statements such as "the Rbhus made into Four what was initially only One"; by Four the four Varnas being implied.

    It should also be clarified here that "Manusmriti", meaning literally "in the memory of Manu", is a very recent text, and certainly not written by Manu himself as Manu is mentioned as a very "ancient" ancestor even in the RgVedic body of text. But it is also clear that but for Manusmriti, may be, we would have had no clear clue about who Manu was.

    "Varna" has root √vṛ which may mean "to cover" or "to embrace". So Varna is like embracing the Aryan way of life. The way of life, that is, the way of works. So what has the Rsis got to say about "the way of works" or "the way of life"?

    (Caution: now we have come to the spiritual aspects of the argument, so the reader is advised not to read the following too literally. I have, however, in my earlier HDF posts, not many as they are, tried to bring some alignment to these ideas.)

    The field of the RgVeda is no doubt Realisation and Knowledge. It is also about Evolution, that flows from an enlightened state, called Sat. And the realm of Rbhus is that of implementation, of works, for they "achieved immortality through works".

    The model for Sat in RgVeda, as given to us, is DyavaPrithvi. Here, Prithvi is the Triple Earth (we live in one of these), and Dyo is the triple Heaven. So DyavaPrithvi means Heaven Earth united, or Heaven-Earth created. I will not be fully going into the significance of DyavaPrithvi, for that is simply not possible, though I have mentioned it a few times in my posts, most significantly, in this one where I linked the unison of DyavaPrithvi notes to the "Awakening of Kundalini" in Yoga and Tantra. However, I must emphasise here that though Tantra and Yoga (as well as Vedanta etc) can validly proclaim their ancestry in the Veda, the Veda is much much more than the algebraic sum of all these sects. Into DyavaPrithvi, I guess, this much for now.

    A mental map for DyavaPrithvi, that is useful, is the number system: where the positive numbers, say, belong to Prithvi and the negative numbers to Dyo. The Zero is to be seen here as Asvini Kumar (why the guy always come back to A.K.?). Again, a caution, not to be too literal here: map can come from something real, but that doesn't make the map one and same as reality.

    So as Zero belongs to both negative and positive numbers, Asvini Kumar, too, belongs to both Dyava and Prithvi, and is, moreover, the Deity who makes it possible, makes Sat possible.

    To summarise it, the main goal of RgVeda is DyavaPrithvi. A being whose consciousness is limited to Prithvi is called Dasyu, similarly, someone limited in Dyo is called Vrtra (don't ask me his address); both Dasyu and Vrtra being states of Asat.

    The import is, our natural state is that of Dasyu, we are born into it. That is why even Rgvedic heroes have Dasyu suggestion in their names: Divodas, Trsadasyu, etc: kind of acknowledgement of their "Dasyu origins". And that is why the Veda says, "we are (overwhelmingly) surrounded with Dasyus".

    On the other hand DyavaPrithvi was the model which could lead humanity to unforeseen heights and to its true potential, on and as a whole, not in terms of a few individuals here and there. In other words, Varna was meant to make the Individual and the Society -both- realise their greater potential.

    The dual Gods extolled in Veda: Indra-Vayu, Mitra-Varuna, Indra-Varuna: emphasise DyavaPrithvi in the sense that in the duandva one God belongs to Dyo and the other to Prithvi. Now, here again I find myself in a tough spot. There is an anti-Gods trend nowadays, it is difficult explaining a truly polytheistic stand to someone. "What are Gods?", "Are they real?": well, Gods are in the "are", and it is the Gods that really make real "real": beyond this I am truly at a loss of words.

    I am really tired now. Hope to continue soon. In the meanwhile I will appreciate your thoughts on this. I will also like if some old-timers who have talked about Veda on this forum in the past, come out, if they are reading this, and share their thoughts. Please feel free to throw in your colors!
    Last edited by Sudas Paijavana; 09 January 2014 at 03:07 AM.
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  2. #2
    Join Date
    February 2012
    Posts
    1,525
    Rep Power
    2741

    Re: Veda and Varna: The Way, of Works

    Namaste Kalicharan Tuvij

    "So as Zero belongs to both negative and positive numbers, Asvini Kumar, too, belongs to both Dyava and Prithvi, and is, moreover, the Deity who makes it possible, makes Sat possible"

    This understanding of Zero is amazing! Yes, zero was invented by Hindus, no question about it. It is placed between, and is neither positive nor negative. Can you explain for me Asvini Kumar? I think Dyava is the Celestial and Prithvi is Bhu or Terestrial. But when I hear of Asvini Kumar I think of the Sons of Surya. Does this have to do with also the Lokas?

    Little off subject, but someone was describing colors in the following manner, as a map of regions in Bharat in relation to the Ramayana:

    WHITE - the far North as in the white snow of the Himalayas and Rishis and mendicants are found, and Shiva covered in ashes (the head)
    RED - the Gangetic valleys and fields where great battles of Hinduism were fought (the chest or the arms or both)
    YELLOW - South India where Monkey Armies were yellow (the arms or the thighs and legs or both - Hanuman was known to jump with strong thighs)
    BLACK - Lanka where Ravana ruled (the feet)
    ... of the body of Bharat and it's regions. The entire Bharat can be seen as a Holy Body, of Ram, who went all through Bharat on His quest for Sita. Anyway, I may have it wrong, it was a long time ago where Ram was being compared to the entire map of India.

    Thank you!

    Om Namah Sivaya
    Last edited by ShivaFan; 04 June 2013 at 10:10 PM.

  3. #3

    Re: Veda and Varna: The Way, of Works

    namaste ShivaFan

    I can accuse you of making a hodgepodge of Purusha-Bharata-Ram-Ramayana-Mahabharata-color-Sukta, a cocktail of diverse topics (in this Veda subforum), and on the top of that quoting purusha sukta in an oblique manner, against my disinclination to discuss it here, as stated clearly, with reasons, in the very first lines of the thread.

    Or one will have to see what is really written/ unwritten here. A Shudra (IMO what else a Shiva bhakt could be like?) wanting no more than to serve, to be at the feet, of mother India that is Bharati, the mother(and a real Deity too) of Aryan Culture and Civilisation.

    Someone wanting to serve is a sign of wide ness (brhat) of soul, if you may like to see what is really meant, or else it means -literally for you- a person belonging to the servile, slave, class.

    So I will rather accuse you of adopting Shudratva voluntarily, as your own choosing (kindly refute me if I have gone mad). Yet you reject the literal meaning that can translate into myriad insane dictums of servitude like the pouring of molten lead into ears, and so on.

    Hindus are generally introvert, but Shudras are even more so. That is one of the reasons there may be almost none here at HDF. The other reason could be that they have not been too much into shastras-pathan (reading) etc, again something that is exercised by them, rather than imposed upon. Yet if you visit one of their households, you will know that they have, in a way, best preserved the Hindu customs and deity worship. And don't be surprised if the average ShUdra youth, that you happen to talk to, doesn't know what Manusmriti is. Or if you do not find even one fibre of inferiority complex inside his psyche.

    Yes, I am talking about a different India, that is right there, but invisible to us all here, or to our shashtras.

    May be because they thought, Veda could not be written, may be not even named so. May be because they decided, a real long time ago, in the purvaJanma of BharataVarsha, that after all, the meaning of Dharma is not to be found in the secret coded painstakingly within the mantra, may be it is somewhere else. In here.

    This is not something that I imagined would be writing in this thread, not to forget of A.K. - that ShivaFan asked me about.

    Meanwhile Kalicharan Tuvij and ShivaFan have decided that in Veda sub forum anything can be discussed! So com'on forum members.
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  4. #4

    Re: Veda and Varna: The Way, of Works

    namaste everyone

    On a more serious note, it can be asked: exactly how much helpful the "everything else" i.e. mainly the other shrutis, are, when studying the RgVeda? Clearly shruti means "heard word", equated with revelation. In this sense RgVeda is the perfect shruti because its recording is perfect: be it the words, accents, meters or auxiliaries such as padapatha. Obviously the record was made at the behest of the Rsis themselves.

    The other shrutis on the other hand are the records of the "words" that were still reverberating around even though the Rsis as a species had gone extinct. Take for example "Asato ma Sad gamaya..." which is mentioned in Satpatha Brahman as a "quote" as if from some distant past. And then it is explained that Sat, Amaratva (immortality) and Light are one and same thing: a rhetoric no doubt imbibed from the days of Rsis yore.

    Or in the context of Varna, the rhetoric found in RV4.33.5 (where the Rbhus are busy making, from the intial one, 2, 3, and finally 4 "Soma cups") is paralleled by BrhadAranyaka Up.1.4.11-14 where one by one each Varna is being created.

    The creation of the other shrutis was important in the sense that much "informal" wisdom that went unrecorded was still doing the rounds. The "formal" part of it was added into the chapter 1 and not so "formal" into the chapter 10 of RgVeda. Thus the other shrutis can be seen more as "informal" ones, and this rule has to be applied even to the Brahmanas despite their outward exactness.

    So in the above Br.Up. quote, for instance, when it says (11) that the initial "one" was Brahman (this actually confusing between Brahm the deity and brAmin the varna, as opposed to intended double-meaning in the RgVedic thought), we know that this cant be, at least according to RgVeda. It is because the initial "one" was Dasyu on one level, and on the other level (i.e. cosmological) the initial "one" was Asat; because Veda is very clear that Asat came before Sat.

    Then the Upanishad says (12) that the second was created: the kshatra varna. And this varna is then extolled as even higher than the brAhman varna! This is also understandable since many Upanishads were written by sages belonging to the Kshatra elite.
    Next it introduces rather quietely the creation of the third and the fourth Varnas, Vis and ShUdra (12, 13). And in the very next line after the ShUdra, something unexpected hits: (14) says that even this much was not sufficient so "Dharma" was created. And then Dharma is equated with Sat. Again Kshatra is preferred over all (especially over the Shudra, in 13) to be "given" the association with this Dharma.

    The Kshatra of Upanishadic age is a confident class: the creative powers of Brahman and the power of Sat, that is Dharma: both fall under his disposal and purview!

    To summarise this one, and the last post, the circumstantial evidence from the "reality before us" and the other shrutis suggest a deep connection of the two: Shudra and Dharma. I hope to be corrected/ added upon by the members here, before moving ahead with the next post, if I missed something.
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  5. #5

    Re: Veda and Varna: The Way, of Works

    namaste forum members

    Let us revert to our "mental map" of DyavaPrithvi, that is, the number system. Or will be this a case of bad ethics for discussion: using modern tools (why not use, er, quantum field theory?) and imagining these to be applicable in the "proto history" of mankind?

    Or why bother at all understanding their beliefs? Or rather their superstitions?

    A good point. And we understand our academicians and historians have it all sorted out, too.

    But then, people do what they do, in fact, if smart people are capable of doing something, in all probability they usually do it! So if we look into an alternate expression of DyavaPrithvi used in the Veda, that is "Sira-Shuna" where Sira (Sans. "plough-mark") is a Prithvi Goddess and Shuna (Sans. "ploughshare") is a Dyo God, we can in fact see the direct origin of Zero (please don't tell the historians..). "Shunna" is what Zero is normally called in India, and Zero, evidently, is the export of Sira (through arabic sifr may be).

    "Sira" is also "Sita" in Vedic and Classic sanskrit (jai mA!).

    Indeed, Zero is actually the "identity element" in any logic group, not to be symbolised as "0" all the time, and quantum field theory is also built upon this very consciously.

    So let us refocus on the "quantum field theories" of the Veda, by making good use of our mental map.

    N.B.: Sira and Shuna, even if we try them reducing to mere ideas, are more than the "mental map". Just as A.K. is more (or shall we say Less?) than Zero.

    Jai Asvini Kumar. Jai Hanuman.


    next post: A.K. again!
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  6. #6

    Re: Veda and Varna: The Way, of Works

    namaste forum members.

    If I was not clear enough in the last post, Asvini Kumar is seen alternatively as Sira-Shuna. There are other images also.

    In our mental image of number system, negative numbers were assigned to Dyo. Now what can that mean? Let us take an example of business. If a person "A" has (-500) rupees what is that supposed to mean? It can mean that he has a debt of 500 rupees. Or a pledge of 500 units.

    Banks have a much bigger pledge, and cannot honour it if all the savers were to appear the same day demanding all their money back. Negative numbers are thus seen as creating a "imaginary" world that doesn't exist. So what keeps the imaginary world from falling apart? What keeps the savers from panicking and appearing on the same day?

    It is Dharma. Child of Dyo. Bull of Heaven. Like a Mother lovingly accepting our sacrifices. Or like Lord Rudra himself, thundering loud, fearsome, dealing Death, Justice, to the transgressors.

    He in his auspicious form is called as Parjanya in the Veda, and as Marut due to his fierce ways. DyavaPrithvi is created when Parjanya showers his rains on Prithvi, thus uniting Father Dyo with Mother Prithvi, and moving together with the Prithvi Gods as Marutgana.

    So Veda says, in the pair of the Asvins, one is "Dyo's Son" (Marut), and the other is the "best Sacrificer" (Lord Vayu in Prithvi). Hanuman who is Maruti, and who is VayuPutra, is therefore Asvini Kumar's manifestation. This alone makes Hanuman the most powerful Hindu Deity.

    Hanuman (Asvini Kumar) is the undying God of Immortality. He cures us of Asat, ignorance, darkness and disease. Powerful like Vayu, discerning like Marut. The only God who preserved all the three: Dharma, Veda and India: no doubt Hanuman Chalisa is the de facto national anthem of India.

    And this is not just an in-context, exaggerating, absolute praise of Asvini Kumar, in the way every deity is praised in Hinduism in some context or text. He is to be solicited even when our deity of worship is different. Without his presence a sect is no more than a cult, and a mandir is no more than a monument.

    P.S.: for those literal minded who may be still wondering about the connection between business and A.K., or as to why gods are necessary when numbers are "necessary and sufficient", there may be some hope still. Say, if there is "matter" which is real we have a corresponding "energy" which is real, but imaginary. Or, if there is "mind" there is "consciousness". Or if there is "life" there is "karma". Similarly if there is "Man" there is "God". That is underscored in the Veda, for instance, in the story of two birds on the same tree: one bird (Prithvi) keeps eating and enjoying the fruits and the other bird (Dyo) just looks on. The tree represents Antariksha, that not for now.
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Early saints of Gaudiya Vaishnavism
    By anadi in forum Vaishnava
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04 May 2011, 05:42 PM
  2. atharva-veda highlights
    By saidevo in forum Vedas & Brahmanas
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 23 March 2011, 09:05 AM
  3. Vedanta Sutra - read this translation
    By Mohini Shakti Devi in forum Vedas & Brahmanas
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 03 May 2010, 11:58 AM
  4. A Personal Hindu Library
    By saidevo in forum Dharma-related Websites
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 17 March 2009, 12:31 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •