Explaining Caste/Varna to others

[IcyCosmic]

Namaste.

I know this is a topic that has been spoken about at length; many times and started many flame wars. I ask that anyone who posts here avoids getting into fights as I will take everyones reply as their own individual perspective; and I ask you do the same.
As more & more people approach me about Hinduism, despite having studied it, I am unsure how to explain Caste & Varna to non-hindus. The lack of context of the opposing individual makes it more challenging, but I take that as a personal lack of depth in my own quality understanding of this topic.

I just would appreciate your own perspective/viewpoint on caste/varna [both] and how you would explain it to someone new to Hinduism who may be interested in the philosophy. That's all.

Thanks.

[Aryavartian]

Namaste.

I know this is a topic that has been spoken about at length; many times and started many flame wars. I ask that anyone who posts here avoids getting into fights as I will take everyones reply as their own individual perspective; and I ask you do the same.
As more & more people approach me about Hinduism, despite having studied it, I am unsure how to explain Caste & Varna to non-hindus. The lack of context of the opposing individual makes it more challenging, but I take that as a personal lack of depth in my own quality understanding of this topic.

I just would appreciate your own perspective/viewpoint on caste/varna [both] and how you would explain it to someone new to Hinduism who may be interested in the philosophy. That's all.

Thanks.

Namaste IcySupreme,

Varna or social class system was practiced all around the ancient world.You won't expect any king to do a servant's work,do you?

In Vedic Dharma,you can change your Varna.There is a story in Aitareya Brahmana,it goes like this:Son of a slave girl,named Kavasa,sat down near the Rishis who were performing Yajna at the banks of river Sarasvati.The Rishis then insulted him by saying "Thou art son of a female slave,we shall not eat with you".Hearing this Kavasa praised river Sarasvati and she followed Kavasa(i.e Sarasvati river went away from the place of the Yajna).After seeing this,the Rishis asked forgiveness to Kavasa.The text also informs us that Kavasa later composed Vedic hymns,i.e he also became a Kavi/Rishi.

Read the story here http://books.google.co.in/books?id=U...%20you&f=false



Similar is the case of a boy named Satyakama mentioned in Chandogya Upanishad.He was son of a prostitute.But since he spoke truth about his lineage to his Guru,his Guru praised him as a "true Brahmana".

This shows that even the lowest class of people could became a Brahmana based on his Gunas or qualities,at least in the early Vedic era.By late Vedic era,during the time of the Sutras,this social Vrna system became more rigid.

[Sudas Paijavana]

I just would appreciate your own perspective/viewpoint on caste/varna [both] and how you would explain it to someone new to Hinduism who may be interested in the philosophy. That's all..

Namaste,

Initially, I would differentiate between the two. Varna is pretty much, in its most general sense, mere societal positioning. It is a naturally occurring phenomenon observable in the world. You have men and women in the army. You have men and women in religious studies and religious fields. You have businessmen and businesswomen. You have men and women that are engineers, architects, plumbers, electricians, actors, doctors & physicians, philosophers, etc. These aren't "castes", but they surely are "varna-s".

Caste develops when these arraignments are classified in hereditary-hierarchal terms: "I am superior to you because I am _________ while you are inferior to me because you are _________." In fact, the class system that is evident in many Western countries and even riddled across Eastern countries is very similar to the concept of caste; instead of hereditary identification...replace it with money (keep in mind that there can be and sometimes is "casteism" in classism: wealthy "old-money" families, for example - which is certainly an example of hereditary classism, but 'tis not always the case). In other words: Casteism and classism are materialistically different. But, theoretically the same.

And, as ShivaFan pointed out: another definition or applicability of "caste" designation is simply tribal/clannish, not necessarily always hereditary-hierarchal. Hereditary, sure. But not always 100% hierarchal. For example, endogamous communities come to mind - which will even go to lengths to not marry outside of the community regardless if the suitor or bride is of either "higher caste" or "higher class". In other words, even at the expense of risking social upward mobility, many endogamous tribal communities will marry within related communities; they are not necessarily motivated by marrying into a "high(er) caste or class" [aka: hypergamy], but are rather motivated by preserving their endogamous identity and social customs - which to them supersede superficial notions of "high caste" and "high class".

Anyway: As per my rigid and orthodox evaluation of Vedic theology, caste is not upheld in Shruti since it goes against the declaration of the last hymn of the Shri Rig Veda: "may we all be of one accord and come together as brothers to offer the oblation".

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Icy: When I speak to newcomers to the faith, I always try to keep in mind that they don't know the language. I try to put it in terms that they understand. So I compare caste to class, and varna to recognising natural ability. They understand class (what westerner doesn't?) and natural ability.

I don't think anyone's looking for some long convoluted answer. Best wishes explaining. It can be difficult if you have to first undo the misconceptions, especially if said misconceptions are quite rigid.

Aum Namasivaya

[ShivaFan]

Namaste both, I agree, this aligns with what I have been taught by a Saiva school (very old one actually). Also, in regards to jati (caste, the 6000 plus vocational castes) these can be historically proven as later day, modern roots growing from only 300 or less prior to the middle ages, to up to 6000 or more under the time of foreign and British hegemony. Also, it can be shown that astrology became more available to the average person during those times via more pandits and jyotish practitioners, and there was a notable period of time where as part of income via such charts this also included shifting of jatis and even varnas based on star charts instead of caste gilds or family and so on. So who was what and when is blurred and was subject to migrations and invasions, sometimes between Hindu rajas and not just outside invaders. In addition, some jatis have nothing to do with "vocation" but were merely tribal or clan designations.
Om Namah Sivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

What is there to explain. There are views in both direction. One is free for all to choose at whim and the other a tradition that is based on Gotra, chandogiya doesn't say any different accept the interpretation of it varies, it is also a disservice to Satyakama's mother to refer her as a prostitute, the UP does not refer to her as such.
What about Upanisad speak of birth being linked to previous karma, and duties prescribed based on birth.

Free for all to choose, off course that would make sense if we agree that our previous Sanskaras have no role in our future birth.

One off the dilemma of Arjun was VarnaShankra also Lord Krisha says bg3.35. &18.47 warns not to change ones duty.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Believer]

Namaste Icy,

Why don't you ask some simple questions for a change?

Since EM has more experience than anyone else in the forum explaining such things to Westerners, I would second his explanation - 'I compare caste to class, and varna to recognising natural ability' - and keep it as brief and as uncomplicated as possible. A person of lower class (caste) with higher level natural abilities (varna) will rise as cream rises to the top. Conversely, a person born into a higher class (caste) family, with no natural abilities (varna) will eventually fall flat on his face. Simple as that. All the noise and confusion is due to politicization of the issue.

Pranam.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

I also agree with Ganeshprashad, though we may not see eye to eye on such matters, yet the importance of duty no one can deny. I am sort of "old achool" in my vocabulary in that I almost always fall back to 1970's style English translations of Hindu words, and it would be very difficult to shake my connection even union between the words DUTY and DHARMA.

Among great men and great ability, pretty much all society all over the world expects the son of such great leaders, great artists, great actors, great politicians, great scientists, great humanitarians, great orators, great writers, great visionaries, and most important of all, great religious personalities to follow in the footsteps of their forebearer.

In fact, this is second nature among the common people to expect, and even dream it will come true, that such sons and daughters will continue the legacy of their forebearer and are often disappointed in such a person if they do not.

I am not a great person, but I do feel my duty is to assist my daughter in her expenses and support her studies and university goals. Actually, I would like to groom her for politics but this would be decade(s) from now, sort of like another Tulsi of Hawaii, and yes her name is a Hindu name. Who knows, one day she may be President. But...

Duty is a core Value, certainly also is loyalty to carry on your forefathers achievements even though this is a material world, as society gives and flows through the coarse of history.

Om Namah Sivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: The editors of Hinduism Today have prepared a pamphlet called '14 questions people ask of Hindus" and give 14 reasonably simple answers. One of them is about caste. Others are about cows, karma, reincarnation, etc.

The pamphlet is downloadable for free here: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/read...teen-questions

Hope that is of some use.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

Namaste

--

Among great men and great ability, pretty much all society all over the world expects the son of such great leaders, great artists, great actors, great politicians, great scientists, great humanitarians, great orators, great writers, great visionaries, and most important of all, great religious personalities to follow in the footsteps of their forebearer.

In fact, this is second nature among the common people to expect, and even dream it will come true, that such sons and daughters will continue the legacy of their forebearer and are often disappointed in such a person if they do not.

---

Duty is a core Value, certainly also is loyalty to carry on your forefathers achievements even though this is a material world, as society gives and flows through the coarse of history.

Om Namah Sivaya

And that is what Lord Krishna says, having said he is the author of Varnashram immediately after one sloka he says; Kuru Karmaiva Tasmat tavam purvaiha Purvataram kratam -therefore Do your action as how the ancient did.

Preserving our heritage is a duty we performed, proof against the brutal occupation of Islam and Christian, there were no organised movement to do so, the Varnashram duty just prevailed.

That is why we see two front attack, on our guru kuala and Varna, well, break this two and what we are left with! chaos and that is what are witnessing.

Jai Shree Krishna