Why is demigod worship different from worshiping paramatma

[Devi Dasi]

Hare Krsna,

To continue extended reply to respected forum member Avyaydya ji's line of questioning:

But if one of these paths becomes absolute and dominant, that is the end of Sanatan Dharm.

Sanathan Dharma means the eternal righteousness. It's quite impossible logically for concept such as san'Atan to be removed from it's root "anadi" which means "without beginning" and "anantha" which means "without end... to have an end. So this is a concocted "danger."

That is why proselyting is against Sanatan Dharm. It is a danger to diversity.

All philosophical schools since the dawn of time within Sanathana Dharma have promoted their views and held public debates, etc. But most importantly you see school like that of Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu being a recent phenomenon coinciding with Mughal invasion.

caturtha ślokera artha ei kaila sāra
prema-nāma pracārite ei avatāra
I have given the essential meaning of the fourth verse: this incarnation [Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu] descends to propagate the chanting of the holy name and spread love of God.
-Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.5

These other proselytizing faiths are going full steam, and you are standing still. Do you think standing still will protect India from invasive ideologies? If you have a truth but do not speak it, how is that truth able to impact the world? Without a great personality like the preaching sannyasi Mahaprabhu Chaitanya and His popular movement with reincorporated forcibly converted Hindu's, and also converted the key proselytizers into bhaktas... that there would have remained a "Hindu" Bengal? Does it occur to you that the Yuga Dharma for this age of Kaliyuga is so easy as chanting for a purpose illustrated within Smriti tradition precisely because this entire world has to begin the process which ultimately will restore the Satyuga. Therefore "ignoring" or "not bothering" about invasive, aggressive ideologies affords no protection at all but simply assures destruction and loss of the Vedic conception of life? Because what comes after an incarnation like Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, is Shri Kalki Bhagavan. But there can still be a golden hour in the midst of Kaliyuga. For this the Puranas proclaim that incarnation in the Kali Age is desirable because the Yuga Dharma is so much simpler. Else, for what purpose do the incarnations of Vishnu Tattva enter into the world except to turn mankind away from the downward spiral of degeneration and materialism?

So when I read Hinduism is monotheism on this forum, I am deeply saddened about the loss of Vedic ideals.

What Vedic ideals are lost by Vaishnava sampradaya? No! Rather a preservation of Vedic ideals, Sanskruti, and pride of place within Vedic Sanathana Dharma. The real loss of Vedic ideals is some kind of fandangled new age do-it-yourself religious philosophy which bears no association with the ancient teachings within the shastras, as in some persons who say the scriptures are all man-made, made-up and to be dispensed with by elevating own personal opinions in place of teachings of our holy sages.

dharmaṁ mahā-puruṣa pāsi yugānuvṛttaṁ
dharmam — the principles of religion; mahā-puruṣa — O great personality; pāsi — You protect; yuga-anuvṛttam — according to the different millenniums
-Srimad Bhagavatam 7.9.38

If you feel I have reservations about Ishkon as a movement, understand that those can only be based on Dharm, not on Jnaan. I really do not mind whether Ishkon is syncretic or not. If Christianity would follow Dharm, I would consider them Sanatan Dharm too.

ISKCON isn't syncretic at all and doesn't teach anything "Christian." Everything which is taught comes from Shastras. When ISKCON's founder Guru Acharya spoke to Christians by way of explanation, to make concepts understandable would explain by analogy, this thing is like that thing. Show me one official ISKCON temple which chants Hare Jesus? Of course there have been innovators, but those who dared where always thrown out as they do not represent the teachings and ideals of the founder, a born brahmin Vaishnav priest. People from Christian upbringing often have the same mentality as that is their understanding. But their idiosyncratic beliefs are not the equivalent of ISKCON spiritual institute teaching. Why else would His Holiness Srila Prabhupada translate some 60-70 works, including shastras into English language if only to teach Christianity? Why would He train Sanskrit scholars and priests with Vaishnav pancha samskara with fire yagna, give brahmana thread and gopala mantra and teach them to live the brahmin ideal?

For in my view Sanatan Dharm does not prescribe what to believe, only how to act (follow Dharm).

That is your personal view, a path of non-belief. What school is this? Who is your Guru?

Verily that which is Dharma is truth.
Therefore they say of a man who speaks truth,
"He speaks the Dharma,"
Or of a man who speaks the Dharma,
"He speaks the truth."
Verily both these things are the same.
-Brhad Aranyaka Upanishad 1.4.14


sad eva, saumya, idam agra AsId ekam evAdvitIyam,
taddhaika AhuH, asad evedam agra AsId ekam evAdvitIyam,
tasmAd asataH sat jAyata 6.2.1
In the beginning, dear boy, there was existence alone,
one only without a second. Some people say that, in the
beginning, there was non-existence alone, one only without
a second. From that non-existence arose whatever exists.
-Chandogya UpaniShad, chapter 6

I selected some of your comments. You write that Bhagavad-Gita does not teach that other religions are false, though their ideas may be wrong and inferior. This sounds condescending and the difference seems trivial to me personally.

You are referring to Krsna uvacha:

ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktā
yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ
te 'pi mām eva kaunteya
yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam
Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kuntī, but they do so in a wrong way.
-Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 9.23

Vaishnava siddhanta is notoriously not "politically correct" as far as trying not to be condescending to a wrong teaching. Did you not say: "The Richis believed in Man constantly renewing himself, like Cosmic Man Purusha is constantly renewing himself..." And if definition of Dharma, per Brhad Aranyaka Upanishad is equivalent to "Truth" then why is it condescending to say mankind moves from untruth to Truth as his capacity to grasp truth improves through spiritual purification? Is it not the same as saying:

ॐ असतो मा सद्गमय ।
तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय ।
मृत्योर्मा अमृतं गमय ।
ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ॥
Om Asato Maa Sad-Gamaya |
Tamaso Maa Jyotir-Gamaya |
Mrtyor-Maa Amrtam Gamaya |
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||
Lead me from the unreal to the real.
Lead me from darkness to light.
Lead me from death to immortality.
May there be peace everywhere.
-Source, Rg Veda

At the same time Srila Prabhupada is so busy trying to convince Christians of Krishna worship that it seems proselyting to me. If you would be so kind would you care to explain: Does Hare Krishna see this as proselyting? And what is its position on proselyting?

Since you have concocted own concept that proselytizing is Adharmic despite context of incarnation Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu clearly coinciding with Mughal invasions and forced conversions and countering quite effectively the same... and since you have concocted that Krsna worship is Adharmic since it posits a "a Belief in a supreme God," "That is why proselyting is against Sanatan Dharm. It is a danger to diversity." When in actuality it is the "diversity" of foreign aggressive faiths which are the danger, and the self-respecting solution is to meet the danger head-on directly, rather than passively waiting for the inevitable loss. And since Vaishnavism positing Vishnu Tattva as Supreme, and Shaivism positing Shiva Tattva as Supreme, and Shaktism positing MahaMaya Tattva as Supreme have not since ages managed to "destroy" Sanathana Dharma diversity... accuse your debate as being facetitious and without merit. All you are doing is creating unnecessary divisions and hostility WITHIN Sanathana Dharma. And self-division is a failure strategy. Better to promote unity.

[Viraja]

.. and since you have concocted that Krsna worship is Adharmic since it posits a "a Belief in a supreme God," "That is why proselyting is against Sanatan Dharm. It is a danger to diversity."

Excellent, Devi Dasi ji!

While Abrahamic religions say non-believers of their faith 'will go to hell', Vaishnavam says, 'Believers of this faith will go to moksha'! I think this is the true difference!

Wonderful explanations given by you.

Pranam.

[hinduism♥krishna]

For in my view Sanatan Dharm does not prescribe what to believe, only how to act (follow Dharm).

Pranam.

Exactly ! Sanatana Hindu Dharma gives full freedom to choose any vaidic path . It is not limited to certain believes . It is a vast knowledge having no end .

But Iskconites preach that worship of vishnu is the sanatana Dharma . I read this on Iskcon's Site. Praphupada said " Other branches are dried up branches of Sanatana Hindu dharma . "

http://www.culteducation.com/referen.../krishna8.html

But other Vaishnawas don't agree on this.

But In fact , sanatana Dharma includes everything in realtion with Veda .. from worship of devatas to worship of atma/paramatma.


And another thing . Sanatana Dharma is not eternal . It is called as Sanatana , because it gives us eternality , it gives us sanatana existence . So the name - Sanatana Dharma .

Dharma is never eternal . ( It is eternal as long as Atma sees himself a Jiva ) In uddhava gita ,shri krishna says that knowledge along with bhakti merges in him . There remains only totality of ParaBramhan after getting Moksha .If one crosses river , there is no any need of Boat . No veda , No bhakti , No meditation , No dharma . Only ParaBramha ! Atma remains in his original state , non-dual state .

" Atmasya Upama Atma eva "

Hari Krishna ....

[Devi Dasi]

Pranam.

Exactly ! Sanatana Hindu Dharma gives full freedom to choose any vaidic path . It is not limited to certain believes . It is a vast knowledge having no end .

But some modern dvaitians like Iskconites preach that worship of vishnu is the sanatana Dharma . Other branches are dried up branches of Sanatana Hindu dharma . I think Prabhupada said like this and I don't take him seriously . I don't know about others.

But Everyone know It was just a tactic used by Prabhupada to attract people . In fact , sanatana Dharma includes everything in realtion with Veda .. from worship of devatas to worship of atma/paramatma.


And another thing . Sanatana Dharma is not eternal . It is called as Sanatana , because it gives us eternality , it gives us sanatana existence . So the name - Sanatana Dharma .

Dharma is never eternal . ( It is eternal as long as Atma sees himself a Jiva ) In uddhava gita ,shri krishna says that knowledge along with bhakti merges in him . There remains only totality of ParaBramhan after getting Moksha .If one crosses river , there is no any need of Boat . No veda , No bhakti , No meditation , No dharma . Only ParaBramha ! Atma remains in his original state , non-dual state .

" Atmasya Upama Atma eva "

Hari Krishna ....

My report of this post sent to forum moderators: May I kindly request of moderators to prevent ISKCON abusers and haters from spreading hate propaganda over every single ISKCON thread in ISKCON subforum? First, this fellow attacks me for being shudra mleccha, and no sooner is he back then accusing my sampraday of being adharmic. Please, this has got to stop. I kindly request you.

[devotee]

Welcome back, HLK !

OM

[Avyaydya]

Hare Krsna,

To continue extended reply to respected forum member Avyaydya ji's line of questioning:
Sanathan Dharma means the eternal righteousness. It's quite impossible logically for concept such as san'Atan to be removed from it's root "anadi" which means "without beginning" and "anantha" which means "without end... to have an end. So this is a concocted "danger."
All philosophical schools since the dawn of time within Sanathana Dharma have promoted their views and held public debates, etc. But most importantly you see school like that of Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu being a recent phenomenon coinciding with Mughal invasion.

caturtha ślokera artha ei kaila sāra
prema-nāma pracārite ei avatāra
I have given the essential meaning of the fourth verse: this incarnation [Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu] descends to propagate the chanting of the holy name and spread love of God.
-Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.5

These other proselytizing faiths are going full steam, and you are standing still. Do you think standing still will protect India from invasive ideologies? If you have a truth but do not speak it, how is that truth able to impact the world? Without a great personality like the preaching sannyasi Mahaprabhu Chaitanya and His popular movement with reincorporated forcibly converted Hindu's, and also converted the key proselytizers into bhaktas... that there would have remained a "Hindu" Bengal? Does it occur to you that the Yuga Dharma for this age of Kaliyuga is so easy as chanting for a purpose illustrated within Smriti tradition precisely because this entire world has to begin the process which ultimately will restore the Satyuga. Therefore "ignoring" or "not bothering" about invasive, aggressive ideologies affords no protection at all but simply assures destruction and loss of the Vedic conception of life? Because what comes after an incarnation like Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, is Shri Kalki Bhagavan. But there can still be a golden hour in the midst of Kaliyuga. For this the Puranas proclaim that incarnation in the Kali Age is desirable because the Yuga Dharma is so much simpler. Else, for what purpose do the incarnations of Vishnu Tattva enter into the world except to turn mankind away from the downward spiral of degeneration and materialism?
What Vedic ideals are lost by Vaishnava sampradaya? No! Rather a preservation of Vedic ideals, Sanskruti, and pride of place within Vedic Sanathana Dharma. The real loss of Vedic ideals is some kind of fandangled new age do-it-yourself religious philosophy which bears no association with the ancient teachings within the shastras, as in some persons who say the scriptures are all man-made, made-up and to be dispensed with by elevating own personal opinions in place of teachings of our holy sages.

dharmaṁ mahā-puruṣa pāsi yugānuvṛttaṁ
dharmam — the principles of religion; mahā-puruṣa — O great personality; pāsi — You protect; yuga-anuvṛttam — according to the different millenniums
-Srimad Bhagavatam 7.9.38

ISKCON isn't syncretic at all and doesn't teach anything "Christian." Everything which is taught comes from Shastras. When ISKCON's founder Guru Acharya spoke to Christians by way of explanation, to make concepts understandable would explain by analogy, this thing is like that thing. Show me one official ISKCON temple which chants Hare Jesus? Of course there have been innovators, but those who dared where always thrown out as they do not represent the teachings and ideals of the founder, a born brahmin Vaishnav priest. People from Christian upbringing often have the same mentality as that is their understanding. But their idiosyncratic beliefs are not the equivalent of ISKCON spiritual institute teaching. Why else would His Holiness Srila Prabhupada translate some 60-70 works, including shastras into English language if only to teach Christianity? Why would He train Sanskrit scholars and priests with Vaishnav pancha samskara with fire yagna, give brahmana thread and gopala mantra and teach them to live the brahmin ideal?

That is your personal view, a path of non-belief. What school is this? Who is your Guru?

Verily that which is Dharma is truth.
Therefore they say of a man who speaks truth,
"He speaks the Dharma,"
Or of a man who speaks the Dharma,
"He speaks the truth."
Verily both these things are the same.
-Brhad Aranyaka Upanishad 1.4.14


sad eva, saumya, idam agra AsId ekam evAdvitIyam,
taddhaika AhuH, asad evedam agra AsId ekam evAdvitIyam,
tasmAd asataH sat jAyata 6.2.1
In the beginning, dear boy, there was existence alone,
one only without a second. Some people say that, in the
beginning, there was non-existence alone, one only without
a second. From that non-existence arose whatever exists.
-Chandogya UpaniShad, chapter 6

You are referring to Krsna uvacha:

ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktā
yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ
te 'pi mām eva kaunteya
yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam
Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kuntī, but they do so in a wrong way.
-Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 9.23

Vaishnava siddhanta is notoriously not "politically correct" as far as trying not to be condescending to a wrong teaching. Did you not say: "The Richis believed in Man constantly renewing himself, like Cosmic Man Purusha is constantly renewing himself..." And if definition of Dharma, per Brhad Aranyaka Upanishad is equivalent to "Truth" then why is it condescending to say mankind moves from untruth to Truth as his capacity to grasp truth improves through spiritual purification? Is it not the same as saying:

ॐ असतो मा सद्गमय ।
तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय ।
मृत्योर्मा अमृतं गमय ।
ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ॥
Om Asato Maa Sad-Gamaya |
Tamaso Maa Jyotir-Gamaya |
Mrtyor-Maa Amrtam Gamaya |
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||
Lead me from the unreal to the real.
Lead me from darkness to light.
Lead me from death to immortality.
May there be peace everywhere.
-Source, Rg Veda

Since you have concocted own concept that proselytizing is Adharmic despite context of incarnation Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu clearly coinciding with Mughal invasions and forced conversions and countering quite effectively the same... and since you have concocted that Krsna worship is Adharmic since it posits a "a Belief in a supreme God," "That is why proselyting is against Sanatan Dharm. It is a danger to diversity." When in actuality it is the "diversity" of foreign aggressive faiths which are the danger, and the self-respecting solution is to meet the danger head-on directly, rather than passively waiting for the inevitable loss. And since Vaishnavism positing Vishnu Tattva as Supreme, and Shaivism positing Shiva Tattva as Supreme, and Shaktism positing MahaMaya Tattva as Supreme have not since ages managed to "destroy" Sanathana Dharma diversity... accuse your debate as being facetitious and without merit. All you are doing is creating unnecessary divisions and hostility WITHIN Sanathana Dharma. And self-division is a failure strategy. Better to promote unity.

Namaste Devi Dasi,

I only wrote the part leading up to the question so you should understand the position from which I was reasoning, not in any way as an attack to your ideas or that of Ishkon. As I wrote, I accept any viewpoint as a true viewpoint. I am not in your shoes and you are not in mine, so we see things differently.

Yes we think differently, but that is no reason to find an attack in every word I write. By the way that is something I see often in monotheist cults, this feeling of being under attack. My explanation is that they try so hard to convince others, that they meet a lot of rejection and start to believe the world is against them. The simple truth is that people cherish their own beliefs and convictions and traditions. If you feel so threatened by other ideas, imagine how people feel about people trying to convert their loved ones from their own traditions. They feel fear as well and fear is the birth-ground of hate. Converting is taking something precious from people, of course that causes negative reactions. Action = Reaction, that is Karma. Don't you believe in Karma? Don't you believe that what we undergo is self-provoked? Are these negative reactions not a sign we are acting wrongly? How do you look at that?

It is a pity you did not really answer my questions. I simply asked how Ishkon regards proselyting. You make all kind of comparisons with other beliefs, like Christianity, you find them awful, but did you ever try to see it their way?

Let me tell you how an honest convinced Christian would react if you accuse him from proselyting. He would say: I never converted anyone in my life. It is my God that converts people, he opens their heart to the true faith. I am a mere servant, I do not have the power to that. If you would say, yes but you used bribes, threats, blackmail, lies. He will say, yes God works in mysterious ways, there is no way we can understand him. But I do not convert anyone. It is God that is the doer, we are merrily his hands. And seriously that is what they believe, because that is what they learn. And isn't that idea not very similar? God being the real doer?

That is my personal objection to belief-based systems of religions, your are made a servant. If God becomes the real doer, than servants can become pretty ruthless. Following Gods words as explained by gurus, there is little room for personal ethical decision making. Everything is spelled out for you in books and by Guru's. But that is personal, I am an individualist at heart. Polytheism creates true individuals, not servants to a God. It sees Man equal to the Gods, all expressions of Brahman. Polytheism never developed one overriding theology, it is by its very Nature individualistic, but that does not mean it did not gave rise to superb minds. It does however not create unifying books for the masses to learn by heart and follow. It does not create mass movements of followers. That is what monotheism is famous for. And monotheistic movements grow through proselyting.

As I see it, trying to take away peoples convictions and traditions is a form of theft. Now I gather from your words (correct me if I am wrong) that you find Christian proselyting wrong, but Ishkon proselyting okay. But to me that is like saying: I am not against proselyting as long as we do it and not them. But then one can equally say: I am not against stealing as long as we do it and not others. I am not against murdering but only if we do it and not others.

Can you explain the justification for proselyting, I do not read this in the Gita. Krishna says to Arjuna that he should keep the knowledge a secret, only for one in many thousands in many thousands, so only one in many millions. Is Krishna putting people up to proselyte? What is Ishkon's view on this?

[Devi Dasi]

Hare Krsna,

I only wrote the part leading up to the question so you should understand the position from which I was reasoning, not in any way as an attack to your ideas or that of Ishkon.

I don't recall any post of yours being neutral towards ISKCON, rather several equating Vaishnav monotheism as an Abrahamic syncretism, using anaolgy of pedophiles in describing Vaishnavas, and claiming the Hindu scriptures are all man-made devices. I don't see how any of your postings can be construed as anything but a negation and attack.

As I wrote, I accept any viewpoint as a true viewpoint.

I consider this statement intellectually dishonest. Did you not in this very thread denounce ISKCON as adharmic, a threat to the continued existence of Sanathana Dharma, and for whose existence you were "saddened at the loss of Vedic ideals?" Moreover, you attack ISKCON as an Abrahamic syncretism and claim you reject ISKCON since Christianity is not a Dharmic religion... but now claim you accept all viewpoints, even contradictory viewpoints as true... but really, you don't.

Let's be rationale, how can comments such as these be considered "not" an attack or undermining? What is your purpose then for posting on ISKCON subforum then since you clearly have no respect or interest in ISKCON teaching? It's only to trash the sampraday, no other purpoise in this endless line of objection.

Yes we think differently, but that is no reason to find an attack in every word I write.

But you really are attacking, let's at least be honest. Did you not write this?

What it comes down to is that Vaishnavas have learned to quote exactly those few lines in a million or so that support their view and present that as ultimate proof, leaving out all that speaks against it. That kind of filtering creating half truths is simply deceit. Nothing new, I see Abrahamist proselyters do that all the time too. They are trained to use that as argument to fool innocent new believers. That is why they like to control forums, because new believers come there.

There is no bigger liar than the written word. In fact the great fraud began the moment people started to write down texts. Then people could not resist the temptation to temper with the texts to make clearer what that saw as the correct interpretation. You will be amazed how popular this game is. When you discuss with pedophiles they are able to flood you with research papers that find that pedophilia is harmless. How come? There are lots of researchers, psychiatrist, child psychologists that are secretly pedophiles and create such papers. And they deeply believe in their own creations.

Only the Vedas are authoritative as they are not written to sell us an ideology/theology, they are above this kind of brainwash. #94

Between you and "Hinduism Heart Krsna" I have not even heard a tolerant, respectable or friendly word in regards to ISKCON, not even once. So why are you both on ISKCON subforum if not to trash this sampradaya which you both despise? Is there really anything further to discuss? All I can do is offer explanations or clarifications from ISKCON teachings and my own perspective. If you want to degrade and continue to ostracize ISKCON as something vile, I can go no further. What's the point? Just avoid this subforum, and avoid disagreements. Why disrespect the teachings of this sampraday? Does it gain you some kind of punya?

By the way that is something I see often in monotheist cults,this feeling of being under attack.

You are accusing us of being a "cult" but it's not an attack? And then playing mind games to accuse of being a "cult" for reacting to what is clearly an attack?" And not just by one, but by multiple... no wait, nearly every single person on this forum who posts is attacking ISKCON in this thread. You are almost all accusing of it being non-Hindu (Abrahamic, syncretic), a danger, adharmic, avedic, or recommending to just dismiss the Guru Acharya's views utterly, and listen to all of yours...

This is beyond rude. And it's really unacceptable for any kind of discussion forum to have one sampraday and it's members endlessly ganged up on. It's not a discussion anymore, it's just an abusive tactic to drive the ISKCON members off the forum.

My explanation is that they try so hard to convince others, that they meet a lot of rejection and start to believe the world is against them.

And you aren't trying so hard to convince? Why do you even bother? At least I try to answer sincere questions and objections. Do you see me bothering any of your personal views on other forum threads? Since I came to this forum, my welcome thread wound up in jalpa! So many people spread so much malicious hatred, castism, and ostracism toward Gaudiya Vaishnavism and ISKCON that it's really shameful. It's shameful you people behave this way and think you are defending Dharma.

If you feel so threatened by other ideas, imagine how people feel about people trying to convert their loved ones from their own traditions. They feel fear as well and fear is the birth-ground of hate. Converting is taking something precious from people, of course that causes negative reactions.

The founder of Gaudiya Vaishnavism resisted the efforts of aggressive converting tactics by promoting Vaishnavism, for those efforts there was a HINDU Bengal to resist partition. I am not threatened by other ideas and actually love to have philosophical discussions. I have a problem with being marginalized, ganged-up on, treated with hatred, disrespect and unkindness. That to me ends a discussion. You seem to be placing Srila Prabhupada, and Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in the same category as Christian and Muslim missionaries. I find that, not only fallacious, but a propaganda lie. If anything, this sect was born as a result of self-preservation against aggressive missionaries. More than that, we don't teach hatred or denigration of any other religion, or that it's a Satanic evil to be eradicated. If Muslims and Christians want to be good Muslims and Christians, FINE! But if they want to taste sweetness of Lord Krsna, we invite them to chant.

Action = Reaction, that is Karma. Don't you believe in Karma? Don't you believe that what we undergo is self-provoked? Are these negative reactions not a sign we are acting wrongly? How do you look at that?

In my view, the negative reactions to me personally on this forum are from a number of positions, not least of which is to consider me as unwelcome outcaste which is a form of discrimination. To deny that casteism is still a problem in India is to be dishonest. I do not agree that it is part of Vedic Sanathan Dharma, but it is a cultural legacy and an evil. ISKCON happens to be viewed as a low caste and outcaste sampradaya, for which reason it is marginalized in India, along with many Sant Deras among the lower castes which mission Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu made outreach to. The saints of Gaudiya Vaishnavism includes outcastes like Sant Kabir, and Srila Haridas Thakur (both from converted Muslim families), and low caste like Goswami Tulsidas have never been accepted within mainstream brahmin caste sampradayas. Even as recently as few years ago, Chamar Dera Baba was shot and killed... so, my view is the underlying caste and race hatreds which infect certain level of Indian society continue to mar the religion... else why was I greeted as a "shudra mleccha" on this forum before I ever said anything to anyone?

Cause and effect? Sometimes introspection is necessary. ISKCON is considered a "Western" movement, because the inner circle chelay of Srila Prabhupada came from the West. Some conflicts occurred between Srila Prabhupada and his Gaudiya Math godbrothers rejecting non-Indian Vaishnavas, so ISKCON is unique in this respect. I have PM in my box where someone has asked me directly, what is my race and country of origin because only Bharatiya's (born Indians) matter to this person. So this is very much a deep dividing issue... and number 1 cause of WHY ISKCON is continually relegated to an Abrahamic status, and labelled as "enemy and threat to Hindus." And NOT for it's actual Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings.

It is a pity you did not really answer my questions. I simply asked how Ishkon regards proselyting.

I'm sorry that you cannot read or comprehend my replies in a way satisfactory to you. Perhaps you should approach someone else with your queries.

You make all kind of comparisons with other beliefs, like Christianity, you find them awful,

This is just intellectual dishonesty. I am attacked on this thread by another poster BECAUSE Iskcon shows respect to personage of Jesus and Christians, and now you tell me I view Christians as awful. Let's clarify... what Christianity has done historically, the murders, the forced conversions, the Native American Indian boarding schools, the child rapes, etc... is awful... and I feel based on deep spiritual misunderstanding. I do not view Christianity as any way equal spiritually to Vedic Sanathana Dharma... because it is NOT a Dharmic path. But I also do not believe the personality of Jesus was appropriately represented in what evolved to be a religion in his name.

Let me tell you how an honest convinced Christian would react if you accuse him from proselyting.

You are the only one making an issue of proselytizing, not me... and solely for purposes of invalidating ISKCON, sampradaya bashing on the ISKCON subforum. I find that to be really disrespectful.

That is my personal objection to belief-based systems of religions, your are made a servant. If God becomes the real doer, than servants can become pretty ruthless. Following Gods words as explained by gurus, there is little room for personal ethical decision making. Everything is spelled out for you in books and by Guru's. But that is personal, I am an individualist at heart. Polytheism creates true individuals, not servants to a God.

If you don't agree with ISKCON, go preach whatever you believe on some other subforum. If you don't believe in Guru's, go elevate yourself to Guru and preach whatever you want on some other subforum. But on ISKCON subforum at least, try to show toleration for ISKCON teaching at least. You don't agree, fine. Go believe whatever you want. For what purpose is there any discussion by you on this forum? You reject this teaching, fine. Have peace. Don't disturb people who believe in Gaudiya Vaishnavism please. This is our little section on Hindu Dharma forum where we should be able to post without huge attack, invalidation, undermining, arguing, insulting, etc... basically trashing our sampraday and Guru Acharya. If you want to discuss the Christianity, go to Christian forum. I am not a Christian. Neither am I any syncretism with Christian.

It sees Man equal to the Gods,

Best of luck with that. The jiva atman is not the same as Paramatman.

As I see it, trying to take away peoples convictions and traditions is a form of theft.

So what are you doing here on ISKCON subforum then?

Now I gather from your words (correct me if I am wrong) that you find Christian proselyting wrong, but Ishkon proselyting okay. But to me that is like saying: I am not against proselyting as long as we do it and not them. But then one can equally say: I am not against stealing as long as we do it and not others. I am not against murdering but only if we do it and not others.

I think you make some huge mental leaps by going to accusation of murder now, just as your previous analogy with pedophilia. It's clear you have some issues with ISKCON, recommend you just leave us alone. The problem with religion in Kaliyuga, is POLITICS. When invader nations send missionaries to undermine a faith and unity of a people and make inroads, such as Christian missionaries in India so they become a constituency to vote in favor of Western colonial business development and against own National self-interests... this kind of purpose is Adharmic. When a Saint goes to America to spread message of peace and unity, it isn't the same. I'm sorry you cannot tell the difference.

Can you explain the justification for proselyting, I do not read this in the Gita. Krishna says to Arjuna that he should keep the knowledge a secret, only for one in many thousands in many thousands, so only one in many millions. Is Krishna putting people up to proselyte? What is Ishkon's view on this?

I gave you answer already, but you don't want to accept it. The founder Acharya of Gaudiya Vaishnavism is Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, to Gaudiya Vaishnavas He is considered an avatar of Shri Radha-Krsna. He spread the Yuga Dharma of chanting the Holy Names regardless of caste, race, nationality, sex, or status. It is open to all people, and for hundred years the saints between Hindu's and Muslims actually took this message to heart, unlike the deterioration of today where the politics is preached. There was a time in history when Sufi sants, Sikh sants and Hindu sants joined Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and promoted peace. Sadly, the spiritual level of society and world cannot maintain such a gracious condition.

-please forgive my mistakes

[Aryavartian]

Namaste Devi Dasi,

I'm not against ISKCON or any other Dharmic organization,but i just came across this article http://www.ibtimes.com/swami-prabhup...semite-1412102

Could you tell me,is Prabhupada's views on 'Dravidians' and 'Aryans' as cited in that article,true?

Also,if possible could you please refute the points raised in the article?

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste Devi Dasi,

I'm not against ISKCON or any other Dharmic organization,but i just came across this article http://www.ibtimes.com/swami-prabhup...semite-1412102

Could you tell me,is Prabhupada's views on 'Dravidians' and 'Aryans' as cited in that article,true?

Also,if possible could you please refute the points raised in the article?

That link is totally based on lies. Prabhupada was talking about Shudras. Not about so called Aryan and Dravidians. In fact, as stated in puranas, Aryas are original habitants of Bharata. They are sacred people born in four Varnas, ie they are Hindus.

Aryans or Dravidians are related to Aryan Invasion Theory of anti-hindu Max Muller. Under the order of British east India company, he proposed it to degrade India's vedic History. It was just a myth.

Now no one believes in such last decade myths. It was completely debunked by Scientists.

See http://gosai.com/writings/the-myth-o...aryan-invasion

Now see , what was the aim of creation AIT and dividing India into Aryas and Dravidians ?

Lord McCauley in his speech of Feb
2, 1835, British Parliament have
said:-
"I have travelled across the length
and breadth of India and I have
not seen one person who is a
beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth
I have seen in this country, such
high moral values, people of such
calibre, that I do not think we
would ever conquer this country,
unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and,
therefore, I propose that we
replace her old and ancient
education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is
foreign and English is good and
greater than their own, they will
lose their self-esteem, their native
self-culture and they will become
what we want them, a truly
dominated nation".

Hari Krishna

[Aryavartian]

That link is totally based on lies. Prabhupada was talking about Shudras. Not about so called Aryan and Dravidians. In fact, as stated in puranas, Aryas are original habitants of Bharata. They are sacred people born in four Varnas, ie they are Hindus.

Aryans or Dravidians are related to Aryan Invasion Theory of anti-hindu Max Muller. Under the order of British east India company, he proposed it to degrade India's vedic History. It was just a myth.

Now no one believes in such last decade myths. It was completely debunked by Scientists.

See http://gosai.com/writings/the-myth-o...aryan-invasion

Now see , what was the aim of creation AIT and dividing India into Aryas and Dravidians ?

Lord McCauley in his speech of Feb
2, 1835, British Parliament have
said:-
"I have travelled across the length
and breadth of India and I have
not seen one person who is a
beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth
I have seen in this country, such
high moral values, people of such
calibre, that I do not think we
would ever conquer this country,
unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and,
therefore, I propose that we
replace her old and ancient
education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is
foreign and English is good and
greater than their own, they will
lose their self-esteem, their native
self-culture and they will become
what we want them, a truly
dominated nation".

Hari Krishna

Namaste,yes i know very well about AIT.Prabhupada openly supported it.Read these:


"Dravidian culture. Dravida. They are non-Āryans. Just like these Africans, they are not Āryans. Now they are mixing up with Europeans and Americans. In India, it was, one from the higher section, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they will be fair complexion. Śūdras, black. So if a brāhmaṇa becomes black, then he's not accepted as brāhmaṇa."


http://vaniquotes.org/wiki/Non-Aryan..._Morning_Walks

" Maybe. Actually Aryan civilization was central Asia. Some of them went towards India and some of them went towards Europe. Indo-European stock that is called."

"The Aryans are white. But here, this side, due to climatic influence, they are a little tan. Indians are tan but they are not black. But Aryans are all white. And the non-Aryans, they are called black. Yes."

http://vanisource.org/wiki/Lecture_o...as%20Europeans.

Sources are from a Hare Krishna site.

It is clear that Prabhupada believed in this colonial era racist Aryan invasion theory,which viewed Aryans as fair skinned....while non-Aryans such as Dravidians,were black skinned.

It is quite ironic,because Lord Sri Krishna himself had black skin!!