Vedic tradition and modern sience

[ale84]

Hello, I came to be really interested in vedic tradition, specially the Gaudiya Sampradaya philosohy. However I've recently found some conflicts with modern science.
In first place the idea that humans existed from the very beggining of creation. If it was so, then I think we should find in the sastras references to prominent extinct species, like dinosaurs, but we don't.
I'm also really interested in the philosophy of Bhagavata Purana, but in the 5th canto it talks about cosmology, and the idea that earth is the static center of our planetary system, with the sun and the other planets orbiting around it (geocentrism). But in the light o modern science I cannot agree with this.
I don't want to fall in pseudoscience to blindly defend a belief.
What should I do?

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste

Hello, I came to be really interested in vedic tradition, specially the Gaudiya Sampradaya philosohy. However I've recently found some conflicts with modern science.
In first place the idea that humans existed from the very beggining of creation. If it was so, then I think we should find in the sastras references to prominent extinct species, like dinosaurs, but we don't.
I'm also really interested in the philosophy of Bhagavata Purana, but in the 5th canto it talks about cosmology, and the idea that earth is the static center of our planetary system, with the sun and the other planets orbiting around it (geocentrism). But in the light o modern science I cannot agree with this.
I don't want to fall in pseudoscience to blindly defend a belief.
What should I do?

I'm not sure about the dinosaurs in the scriptures, but is there a rule which says that Hindu scriptures must mention dinosaurs? Hindu scriptures probably also do not mention many other species. Is this a problem?

It seems that the description of the universe which is given in Hindu scriptures is in accordance with the vision of a non-human beings, devas or demigods who don't have human perception or senses. They see the universe differently from us.
There is a book Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by a Gaudiya vaishnava Richard L. Thompson who explained these things. See his video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yzH2n7MLM8

I don't want to fall in pseudoscience to blindly defend a belief.

What is a "pseudoscience"?
I would rather call this a two possibilities to understand the world.
One is a picture of the world according to which God does not exist and according to which the world is formed somehow by accident without a plan and intelligent design.
The other is a picture of the world according to which God exists, and according to which the world is created as planned and according to intelligent design.
Make a choice which picture are you going to believe.

Now, picture of the world according to which God exists says that God is eternal. This practically means that God had in mind all forms of life long before the creation of the world. In fact from the Vedic scriptures we learn that the world is created over and over again during the eternal time. Thus the eternal God creates and destroys the universe over and over again during the eternal time. This even means that people existed before the creation of the universe in which we are living now!
Every time when the universe is created all forms of life including humans are living in that universe. When the universe is destroyed everything is destroyed. Later the universe is created again. This process is repeated again and again throughout eternity under the supervision of God.

Lord Krishna describes repeated creation and destruction of the universe in the Bhagavad gita 9.8 (http://vedabase.net/bg/9/8/en) :

"The whole cosmic order is under Me. Under My will it is automatically manifested again and again, and under My will it is annihilated at the end."

Can we somehow find evidence for this Lord Krishna's claim by digging and searching for archaeological evidence?
Can we somehow validate this claim by looking at the stars with a telescope?
I seriously doubt that this is possible.

regards

[ale84]

Hi, Brahma Jijnasa. Thanks for answering.

Namaste

I'm not sure about the dinosaurs in the scriptures, but is there a rule which says that Hindu scriptures must mention dinosaurs? Hindu scriptures probably also do not mention many other species. Is this a problem?

I know that hindu scriptures are not animal encyclopedias. I don't know much about the scriptures and to date the events narrated there. If the events narrated involving human beings on earth go back only a few millons years ago, then there's no problem, because dinosaurs had become extinct long before.
But if there are stories from 65 to 230 millon years ago involving events of human beings on earth, then I think there should be at least some accounts and descriptions of dinosaurs sightings/encounters.

It seems that the description of the universe which is given in Hindu scriptures is in accordance with the vision of a non-human beings, devas or demigods who don't have human perception or senses. They see the universe differently from us.
There is a book Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by a Gaudiya vaishnava Richard L. Thompson who explained these things. See his video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yzH2n7MLM8

Thanks for the video, I'll take the time to watch it complete.

[ale84]

Hello, here's a calculation about dinosaurs I've found in an indiadivine.org thread:

Dinosaurs lived from 230 million years ago to 65 million years ago.

1 Maha yuga (cycle of the four yugas) = 4.32 million years.

Divide 230 by 4.32 and take the integer part. We get 53. So, dinosaurs came into existence 53 Maha-yugas before current Maha-yuga.

Divide 65 by 4.32 and take the integer part. We get 15. So, dinosaurs vanished 15 Maha-yugas before current Maha-yuga.

So, their existence spanned a little more than 53-15 = 38 Maha yugas. This means that in several Maha yugas, they existed in all the four yugas (satya, treta, dwapar and kali).

What do you think? Is this calculation correct?

I've been also watching the video. It's really interesting, though I don't understand much about astronomy.
So, according to Thompson, Bhagavatam uses Bhu-mandala to represent at least four models: (1) a polar- projection map of the Earth globe, (2) a map of the solar system, (3) a topographical map of south-central Asia, and (4) a map of the celestial realm of the demigods.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

If one is interested in dinosaurs then the study of Paleontology will make perfect sense. If one is interested in discovering who they really are (ātma-svarūpa¹) then sanātana dharma is one's support.

iti śivaṁ

words

• ātma-svarūpa = ātma + svarūpa
  • ātma = Self ( some prefer Universal Self); the highest personal principle of life , brahma or paramātman
  • svarūpa - one's own form or shape

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste

But if there are stories from 65 to 230 millon years ago involving events of human beings on earth, then I think there should be at least some accounts and descriptions of dinosaurs sightings/encounters.

How do you know that? It's just your assumption.
Mice and cats also lived millions of years ago. Now tell me where are they mentioned in the Hindu scriptures?
As I said "is there a rule which says that Hindu scriptures must mention dinosaurs? Hindu scriptures probably also do not mention many other species."

So, their existence spanned a little more than 53-15 = 38 Maha yugas. This means that in several Maha yugas, they existed in all the four yugas (satya, treta, dwapar and kali).

What do you think? Is this calculation correct?

Maybe it is correctly and maybe not. How can we know that?
Assuming that it is correct, then how can we be sure that the Vedas must mentioned dinosaurs?

However my point was different. Let's start with Vedic starting point to observe the world. God had in mind all forms of life long before the creation of the world. In fact from the Vedic scriptures we learn that the world is created over and over again during the eternal time. Thus the eternal God creates and destroys the universe over and over again during the eternal time. This even means that people existed before the creation of the universe in which we are living now!
Can we somehow validate this claim by looking at the stars with a telescope or by digging and searching for archaeological evidence?

I've been also watching the video. It's really interesting, though I don't understand much about astronomy.
So, according to Thompson, Bhagavatam uses Bhu-mandala to represent ...

Read his book (search on google): Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy

Yajvan said well.

regards

[isavasya]

Well I am a veda dharmi and modern science does not conflicts with my beliefs. That is because I do not make literal interpretations of texts. Modern science holds the view that humans and all life forms have evolved from single celled organism and I have no problem in believing that and in fact I love debating Abrhamaic folks on idiotic creationism beliefs of Bible-Kooran. For me sanatan Dharm is meant to guide me towards understanding Atma-parmatma or purusha-prakriti or shiva-shakti-jiva relationship and not science. For knowing Science, I read peer reviewed science journals. I see both science and Dharm as separate entity and don't want to prove scientific accuracy in my Dharm. Dharma is beyond science and physics. Similarly science does not requires proof from scriptures.

[Araloka]

Such ideas come from the Bhagavata Purana/Srimad Bhagavatam, which despite what ISKCON and some others will tell you, is not particularly ancient - and not Vedic . It was only written about 1100 years ago by a man named Jayadeva.

ISKCON and some others say it is exceedingly ancient because they think all Sanatan Dharma scriptures must be. Srila Prabhupada even called Adi Sankarcharya (who lived in the 8th century) "envious" of it because he never mentioned it! The reason he didn't mention it was it didn't exist, but people like Srila Prabhupada imagine that they refused to acknowledge it. That is of course like saying Plato ignored Shakespeare because he was envious, rather than the obvious fact that 2000 years separated them.

They also without knowing what they are talking about call everything old "Vedic" even if it is not. Vedic refers to a specific time over 2000 years ago but people will call things that were established only 200 years ago "Vedic," kinda like how westerners with hardly any knowledge of their history will think anything ancient is Greek or Roman.

Anyway, do not feel it is necessary to believe those things. They are not ancient Vedic knowledge, they are middle age beliefs from the Gupta period.

[Sahasranama]

Such ideas come from the Bhagavata Purana/Srimad Bhagavatam, which despite what ISKCON and some others will tell you, is not particularly ancient - and not Vedic . It was only written about 1100 years ago by a man named Jayadeva.

How ignorant can a person be, Jayadeva who composed the Gita Govinda was not the author of the Srimad Bhagavatam. There have been claims made by reformist groups that the Srimad Bhagavatam was authored by a medieval poet named Vopadeva, but this has been thoroughly debunked by Puranic scholars like Pandit Jwalaprasad Mishra and also by western academics.

[Araloka]

How ignorant can a person be, Jayadeva who composed the Gita Govinda was not the author of the Srimad Bhagavatam. There have been claims made by reformist groups that the Srimad Bhagavatam was authored by a medieval poet named Vopadeva, but this has been thoroughly debunked by Puranic scholars like Pandit Jwalaprasad Mishra and also by western academics.

There are multiple people named Jayadeva, and the Srimad Bhagavatam refers to events that didn't even occur until well into known history such as the Alvars in Tamilnadu. People like Adi Sankarcharya also never mentioned it since it did not exist... That you resort to pejoratives rather than show a rational response means I'm just putting you on block. Your kind think that simply by spouting insults they prove they are right, and I've had enough of that mentality.