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Thread: pramāda & pramāṇa ...

  1. #11
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    Re: pramāda & pramāṇa ...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    yajvan what fun can there be in only understanding that sleep is undifferentiated awareness if I cannot do anything with it; that I have to wait some 16 hrs. before I dive back into this undifferentiated awareness.
    A reasonable question to ask is, why then do I wake up ? This Being is there in sleep , what is the reason (stimulus) to wake up ?

    In a word , it is vāsanā-s - impressions within the mind; the present consciousness of past perceptions.

    Upon awaking the ego is re-engaged and once again a day full of 'me' begins. Yet if one pays very close attention to that initial point of waking, going from slumber to just beginning to wake, one will find this very subtle feeling of 'I am'. It is like the first bubble that is arising from this sleep that begins to take form. It is 'I am' and not I am this or that or what ever one thinks one is, but just this simple feeling of 'I am' that most humans pass off. It is the closest feeling to Being that we can have before the mind becomes fully engaged in once again becoming 'me' for the day.

    In the vijñānabhairava kārikā¹ it suggest their is value found just before one falls asleep - it talks of 'where sleep has not yet come, but wakefulness is over'. It is there says śiva , one can find para devī , or pure awareness.

    So on both sides of sleep - before sleep and upon waking one may find (experience) a very subtle level of awareness. It is quite delicate and simple.

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • vijñānabhairava tantra - 75th kārikā; this work belongs to the bhairava-āgamas which part of advitīya (~ non dual~, without a second) śaivism
      • kārikā = a concise statement
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #12
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    Re: pramāda & pramāṇa ...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    We're told Self (ātman) does not marry. It does not 'marry' the non-Self or anātman¹ . This is hinted by kṛṣṇa-jī in the bhāgavad gītā (4.14). He informs us that , actions do not involve Me. This again is hinted at in chapter 9th chapter and 11th verse ; kṛṣṇa-ji says, those that are mūḍha (foolish , dull , silly , simple) not knowing me as the Supreme (maheśvara) take me to be of human (tanu) form and disrespect (āvajānāti¹) me (mama or māṃ).
    That is, they take 'Me' to be just the normal human walking on this earth and they do not have the ability to know My Supreme (maheśvara) nature.

    There are a few points that are teased out by this information above:
    • the mūḍha (foolish , dull , silly , simple) meet the requirements of pramāda of ātman - negligence , carelessness about, error i.e. forgetfulness of one's own Self.
    • that kṛṣṇa-ji is none other then brahman, he is not the ~normal~ tanu or human form that people 'see' as kṛṣṇa
    • that kṛṣṇa (Self/brahman/ātman) is beyond actions ... then who is doing them ? The 3 guṇa-s¹.
    We can then say if we really ( 'throughly'¹ is suggested in the bhāgavad gītā verse 4.14 ) know our Self or kṛṣṇa/brahman/ātman actions do not bind us. Hence the notion of 'thoroughly' meets the notion of pramāṇa of Self (ātman) - acquiring pramā (knowledge) of Self to the fullest.

    Why so ? Because to thoroughly know Being, we are constantly facing inward or sūttāntara = sūtta + āntara = entirely given + inwards, interior. We are beyond the notion of action and reaction which is the field of the guṇa-s and also beyond the ego.

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • anātman - non-Self or something different from ātman/brahman.
    • avajñā = to disesteem , have a low opinion of , despise , treat with contempt
      • śrī siddharameśvara maharāj informs us that kṛṣṇa-ji tolerates this due to his compassion
    • guṇa - in the sāṃkhya view of knowledge the guṇa-s are an ingredient of prakṛti , chief quality of all existing things/beings known as sattva , rajas , and tamas
      • in the nyāya view this notion is taken a bit deeper to offer twenty-four guṇa-s - examples:
        • 1. rūpa , shape or form, color
        • 2. rasa , savor
        • 3. gandha , odor
        • 4. sparśa , tangibility
        • 5. saṃkhyā , number
        • 6. parimāṇa , dimension
        • 7. pṛthaktva , severalty
        • 8. saṃyoga , conjunction
        • 9. vibhāga , disjunction
        • 10. etc. etc.
    • thoroughly or abhijānāti = abhi +jāna+ati : abhi = expresses superiority, intensity + jāna = origin + ati =expresses beyond
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #13
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    Re: pramāda & pramāṇa ...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post



    If we look to the īśavāsyopaniṣad¹ it informs us of ātmahano janāḥ i.e. the person or creature ( janāḥ ) that is the killer (hano) of the Self or ātman.
    Not knowing one's Self (ātman) and living in ignorance is equal to one that has killed one's Self. Within this HDF string it is equal to
    pramāda of ātman - negligence , carelessness about, error i.e. forgetfulness of one's own Self. This is the gravity the upaniṣad-s offer us regarding this matter.
    I thought to say this another way...

    The Supreme is undivided Being ; when we come to think we're different from it by thinking I am this ( I am this manager, this operator, this bus-man, this factory worker , this student ) i.e. I am this body - this constitutes fraud. It is as if we have taken this undivided Being and cut it in two. The one half of being the world
    or 'me' ( ego) and the other, that of God. For some even in deeper delusion there is 'me' and 'not me'. In this way, it is considered ātmahano janāḥ . The Self has become completely overshadowed.



    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • īśavāsyopaniṣad = īśavāsya upaniṣad - we find this knowledge in the 3rd śloka
    • pramāṇa = pramā - right knowledge; correct knowledge; to understand
    • dhīra is rooted in dhṛ meaning steady , constant , firm , resolute , brave , energetic , courageous , Self-possessed
    • vīra - heroic , powerful , strong , excellent
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #14
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    Re: pramāda & pramāṇa ...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Now there is this notion of ābaddhadṛṣṭi - 'having the eyes fixed on' .
    It is most interesting notion within the realm of ignorance (pramāda) .

    We as humans are outward facing. We view objects. When I say ~objects~ they are with form (prakāra¹) e.g. a house, car, bike, and without form (amūrta¹) like a feeling, thought, etc. We take-in these forms via the filter called ego. This ego ( for now) we can call 'i' ,small 'i'. People have come to believe this 'i' is who they really are.

    Yet here is the insight worth one's consideration. This 'i' is also an object. Yet we as humans miss this. Why so ? Because 'i' does not announce itself as an object in front of one's perception. Other objects do. We 'see' an apple . It is distinct. We see a car, boat, house, brother, and they are 'announced' to one's perception as prakāra. Yet this 'i' this ego does not and we miss it.
    So, why mention this ? Real knowledge ( pramāṇa ) comes to show this distinction of 'i' from one's Self. This simple idea via inspection of one's personality and behaviors will find there is something behind this ego . It is Self (Being).
    Yet for the bound person, this distinction seems a bit difficult to grasp. It is via one's practice that the insight of this distinction comes about. It comes with the maturity of silence (mauna). This is not just keeping one's mouth closed, but the silence of the voice from the lips and the voice of the active mind. That is why the wise say this silence can be found in-between two (consecutive) thoughts. There is no thought there, and the awareness is focused on this gap. When this done in sequence over time , it grooms silence.


    iti śivaṁ

    words

    • prakāra - nature, class, species; belonging to a species
    • amūrta - formless, shapeless, unembodied
    Last edited by yajvan; 17 February 2014 at 07:06 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #15
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    Smile Re: pramāda & pramāṇa ...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    The Supreme is undivided Being ; when we come to think we're different from it by thinking I am this ( I am this manager, this operator, this bus-man, this factory worker , this student ) i.e. I am this body - this constitutes fraud. It is as if we have taken this undivided Being and cut it in two. The one half of being the world
    or 'me' ( ego) and the other, that of God. For some even in deeper delusion there is 'me' and 'not me'. In this way, it is considered ātmahano janāḥ . The Self has become completely overshadowed
    'i' is also an object. Yet we as humans miss this. Why so ? Because 'i' does not announce itself as an object in front of one's perception. Other objects do. We 'see' an apple . It is distinct. We see a car, boat, house, brother, and they are 'announced' to one's perception as prakāra. Yet this 'i' this ego does not and we miss it.
    So, why mention this ? Real knowledge ( pramāṇa ) comes to show this distinction of 'i' from one's Self. This simple idea via inspection of one's personality and behaviors will find there is something behind this ego
    If one considers what is written above it informs the reader of the essence / aim of one's sādhana :

    1. having the epiphany that the ego is just one more thing
    2. experiencing that behind this 'i' lies Being, undivided Being
    3. That this Being is the real 'me'
    4. That this real 'me' is non-personal , all inclusive awareness, wholeness, without boundaries

    So, one needs to be cognizant of the fact that small 'i' and Being do not exist simultaneously (in a manner of speaking). That one is the proprietor/lord and the other is secondary. Now why do I mention this ? It is because many wish to capture this Being (a.k.a enlightenment, mokṣa) as an object of experience that is ~placed in front~ of the ego as an object to be experienced while the ego remains the proprietor. The ego does not want to give in. It wishes to survive.

    You can see by this conversation it is quite convoluted. This ego is always in survival mode. Even during one's sādhana it will allow you to go do your practice, but soon it wishes to drive the bus again! If you have had this experience you know what I am alluding to. The ego says, yes discipline me as you choose, yet I wish to return and be on top again.
    That is why one's sādhana takes some time and focus. The ego wishes to get back to its status - and this is the challenge we are faced with.
    The ego is like an unruly child - the more you wish to discipline , the more the child pushes back. So, various methods have been offered by the wise to win favor over the ego. Like the unruly child with time, patience, and candy one can begin to make progress.


    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #16
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    Re: pramāda & pramāṇa ...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    It is because many wish to capture this Being (a.k.a enlightenment, mokṣa) as an object of experience that is ~placed in front~ of the ego as an object to be experienced while the ego remains the proprietor.
    For the discerning HDF reader one must think ' who then experiences this Being ? ' .

    First how could it possibly be the ego the experiences Being? It cannot . Why so ? Because it is limited in nature . How could it possibly experience (some say swallow) the Infinite? It would be like containing all of the oceans in a sesame seed.
    The only thing that can experience the infinite is the infinite itself. It reveals ItSelf to the one It chooses. This is brought to light in the kaṭha upaniṣad and muṇḍaka upaniṣad. The respected T.V. kāpali
    śāstri-ji says it in his words ( commenting on the upaniṣad-s aforementioned), 'even when an exclusive choice is made for realizing the Self, it is the Self that reveals its own body to the seeker' . Said another way , 'He chooses the Self who is chosen by the Self'¹.

    That is, for the one that is in pursuit of the Self, the Self has chosen this person to do so...

    So, again the most astute HDF reader then would say , why do any sādhana at all ? If you have been picked , why bother with any tapas ?

    iti śivaṁ

    1. 'He chooses the Self' - I have been taught this knowledge by the following words: The Self reveals itSelf to itSelf.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #17
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    Re: pramāda & pramāṇa ...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    So, again the most astute HDF reader then would say , why do any sādhana at all ? If you have been picked , why bother with any tapas ?
    This question can be answered in a few ways.
    First it would the most rapacious¹ response from the ego's point of view. Why do today what you can put off till tomorrow. With no sādhana the ego gets it way all day long. So, having this response will suit the ego quite nicely and allow it to stay in control.

    Yet there is another view... that of the farmer. For a crop to grow one must prepare the soil. Sādhana does just that.


    iti śivaṁ

    1. rapacious - plundering; living on prey.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #18

    Re: pramāda & pramāṇa ...

    Pranams yajvan

    Thank you for your informative and well written posts.

    Ys

    Md

  9. #19
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    Re: pramāda & pramāṇa ...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    For the discerning HDF reader one must think ' who then experiences this Being ? ' .

    The only thing that can experience the infinite is the infinite itself. It reveals ItSelf to the one It chooses. This is brought to light in the kaṭha upaniṣad and muṇḍaka upaniṣad. The respected T.V. kāpali
    śāstri-ji says it in his words ( commenting on the upaniṣad-s aforementioned), 'even when an exclusive choice is made for realizing the Self, it is the Self that reveals its own body to the seeker' . Said another way , 'He chooses the Self who is chosen by the Self'¹.

    That is, for the one that is in pursuit of the Self, the Self has chosen this person to do so...

    So, again the most astute HDF reader then would say , why do any sādhana at all ? If you have been picked , why bother with any tapas ?

    'He chooses the Self' - I have been taught this knowledge by the following words: The Self reveals itSelf to itSelf.
    These are grand words (The Self reveals itSelf to itSelf), but
    1. why do any sādhana at all ? and,
    2. what is occurring when Self reveals itSelf to itSelf ? It sounds almost intelligible, but what is happening?


    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #20
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    Re: pramāda & pramāṇa ...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    These are grand words (The Self reveals itSelf to itSelf), but
    1. why do any sādhana at all ? and,
    2. what is occurring when Self reveals itSelf to itSelf ? It sounds almost intelligible, but what is happening?
    What is sādhana ? It is abhyāsya or repeated discipline. But by whom ? The sādaka – one adapted to a purpose, a ~skillful~ person. And for what? Sādhya – something to be mastered, accomplished. Did you happen to notice one sound form that is repeated in each term ( सा) ?
    This term = meditation, knowledge; the 3rd derivation of sā is rooted in san which = giving and bestowing.
    • hence sā informs us of abhyāsya or discipline -> meditation & knowledge
    • it tells us that it bestows (san); but what is being bestowed?
    • the 4th derivation of sā is a name of viṣṇu or śiva also used for lakṣmi or gaurī. Hence what is bestowed? That of viṣṇu or śiva or lakṣmi or gaurī which is also pure Being, pure consciousness.


    Now the interesting part...
    Many will say, I do sādhana so I can become enlightened, to become realized. This suggests that realization is possible by some action, some doing. Well, this contradicts the second part of the inquiry (which is supported by the muṇḍaka upaniṣad1) that Self reveals itSelf to itSelf.
    Well we have ( I have) painted myself into a corner on this argument. On one end one does abhyāsya for one’s realization and on the other end we are informed it is really up to Self , and to whom It reveals itSelf to.

    Some things to consider for our way out of this
    Rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi informs us, your very existence is realization; if you have not realized your existence how then can you be questioning? How can you be interrogating and wanting to pursue your core Being ( pure awareness) ? He would ask, do you question your very existence? If you say yes, then he would ask who just answered ‘yes’. If you answered ‘no’, then your existence is not questioned and you are on sure footing.
    This is quite something isn’t it? You see, existing cannot not occur without Being, so Being ( pure awareness ) must be there, present in you, otherwise one could not question or ponder. Being is a prerequisite for all that one does or does not do, because it is the foundation of one’s existence. If one answered , no I do not exist, then the logical answer would be why worry? Why do you care to do anything if you do not exist? See the point?

    So, here is the deal
    This Being, existence, pure awareness is such a part of you that there is no contrast for one to notice it. We notice things by contrast ( this is duality). There is me and there is everything else. I can see everything else as an object, but I do not ~easily~ see ‘me’. We have come to think that this ~me~ is the body, others think ~me~ is one’s personality or ego, or intellect ( as the intellect takes on the notion of Self and presents itself as ego/personality).

    So, let’s answer the question of why one would do sādhana or abhyāsya. It is to remove obstructions; it is to set the conditions that allows the Self to reveal itSelf to itSelf. It is not an action that ‘makes’ or produces realization. It sets the conditions for It to occur. It prepares one, but in no way that I have heard as yet does it force or cajole realization to occur.
    As svāmī lakṣman-jū mentions , it is setting the conditions for the mind to become ‘no mind’. We may go into ‘no mind’ also known as samādhi, yet with time we come back out. Why so ? Due to past impressions ( vāsana-s) that still bubble up.
    Vāsana-s & kleśa-s2 are the subject matter of the yogadarśana of patañjali-ji, of which I will not pursue at this time. Yet most of us hear that it is ignorance that keeps one from realization. Svāmī lakṣman-jū informs us that this ignorance is none other than non-fullness, non-wholeness. It surely doesn’t mean absence of knowledge; it is not about academics, it is about the absence of one’s experience of their own true and natural state of Being.
    As I have said, it is not that Being is not there ( then one would not exist). It is about the person who wishes to hold it or experience it as if it were an object, the way other things are experienced ( even a feeling or thought). The mind wishes to operate in the same manner as acquiring other ~knowledge~, that of a subject and an object to inspect , and in this arena it does not work. Why does it not work? Because the object that one wants to inspect is the inspector itself !

    This brings us to The Self reveals itSelf to itSelf
    It is the nature of Self ( I do not like to say ‘the’ Self if I can avoid it) to be Self aware; That is , it is aware of itSelf. It is that awareness that has it’s own Self-referral process built-in. In saying this another way it is ~as if~ Self is object and subject at the same time. It has this ability to know itSelf.
    You see if we try to approach the infinite from the finite , how can the finite ( intellect) grasp the infinite? How can an action that is limited in space, time, cause or effect grasp something that is without boundaries, without time or space? See the conundrum?

    To even ‘get’ this, to comprehend this, takes some refinement on the observer’s part ( that would be me and you). This is where sādhana & abhyāsya fits in. It hones the intellect and understanding to come to grasp these finer points. It cleans the perception and polishes our abilities to comprehend finer-and-finer levels of ideas, and in many cases obtuse principles that may give us a brain cramp.

    iti śivaṁ
    terms

    1. muṇḍaka upaniṣad – 3.2.3
    नायमात्मा प्रवचनेन लभ्यो न मेधया न बहुना श्रुतेन ।
    यमेवैष वृणुते तेन लभ्यस्तस्यैष आत्मा विवृणुते तनूं स्वाम् ॥ ३ ॥
    nāyamātmā pravacanena labhyo na medhayā na bahunā śrutena |
    yamevaiṣa vṛṇute tena labhyastasyaiṣa ātmā vivṛṇute tanūṃ svām || 3 ||

    Self (ātmā ) is not attained by dint of study or intelligence or much hearing
    He (Self) whom He wishes to attain, by that, it can be attained.
    To Him this ātmā reveals itSelf. ( some say it this way: to Him the Self unveils Itself)

    2. kleśa-s - śeṣa-patañjali calls out 5:
    • avidyā - ignorance; this is not scholastic ignorance but the inability to differentiate the Self from non-Self termed viveka or discrimination , distinction between Self and non-Self.
    • asmitā , ‘egotism’ or the notion of me-ness ; One identifies ‘me’ as the body and senses; as a limited being.
    • rāga - desires ; that which does not allow the mind to rest or be balanced
    • dveṣa - aversion but to what ? of death; fear of death
    • abhiniveśa – one’s tenacity to cling to mundane existence


    Regarding
    kleśa-s & samādhi
    chapter 2 of patañjali’s yogadarśana
    tapaḥsvādhyāyeśvarapraṇidhānāni kriyāyogaḥ || 2.1
    samādhibhāvanārthaḥ kleśatanūkaraṇārthaś ca ||2.2
    this says, in general that kriyā yoga is the method/practice/ abhyāsya for bringing about samādhi and minimizing kleśa’s
    Last edited by yajvan; 20 January 2017 at 02:54 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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