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Thread: other then 2...

  1. #11

    Re: other then 2...

    Namaste Yajvan,

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    We are told that within just 12 verses ( the total for this upaniṣad ) it contains the essence of all the upaniṣad-s.
    How wonderful to reread this Upanishad for the first time in quite a while, to remark upon my perspective and understanding, and how it has changed; simply delightful ...

    I thank you for your guidance in the unfurling of this beautiful knowledge.

    Kind regards.
    Last edited by Mana; 05 February 2014 at 02:24 PM.

  2. #12
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    Re: other then 2...

    hariḥ o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    If there is not two, how can ātmasamarpaṇaṃ¹ or Self-surrender be possible ?

    iti śivaṁ

    words

    • ātmasamarpaṇaṃ = ātma+samarpaṇaṃ
      • ātma - Self
      • samarpaṇaṃ - handing completely over , consigning , presenting , imparting , bestowing
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #13
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    Re: other then 2...

    hariḥ o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post


    If there is not two, how can ātmasamarpaṇaṃ¹ or Self-surrender be possible ?
    ...yajvan, I do not understand what you are saying.

    In order to surrender there needs to be 'two' - he that is surrendering and that which is accepting the surrender.
    This, in part, is the essence of duality.

    Now the finer point to consider...

    In duality (dvitīya) there is a Supreme Being;
    In advitīya (without a second) , there is Supreme Being.

    By saying there is a Supreme Being it infers there are others that are not this. By saying there is Supreme Being , it infers there is nothing other then this.

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • ātmasamarpaṇaṃ = ātma+samarpaṇaṃ
      • ātma - Self
      • samarpaṇaṃ - handing completely over , consigning , presenting , imparting , bestowing
    Last edited by yajvan; 06 February 2014 at 02:25 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #14

    Re: other then 2...

    Namaste.

    Yes..there is One, only one..
    There is only one "window" which, the same for us all, when opened to us brings Awareness- also called Sat. Indeed, Sat is One.

    Yes, there is two..
    When the window is shut to us, there is us and there is what lies beyond.

    Then, there is many..
    When the incoming Light, the Soma, brings to us many treasures through the open window.

    So which one is true? One, Two, Many?

    None. Because the words "One", "Two", "Many" have their birth in the Reality, they come from the Reality, therefore they cannot claim precedence over the Reality, they cannot define or confine it.

    Yet everyone of them is true, as discussed in the start.

    Let us talk about "the window", then. This is the only fruitful exercise.

    A good start to it is, arguably, a rejection of "all this visible world" with the belief that there are truths beyond it, that there is a window, and there is a whole new world on the other side. As a teenager I remember having gone through this.

    There is a time and space for everything.

    KT
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  5. #15
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    Re: other then 2...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    Namaste.

    Yes..there is One, only one..
    There is only one "window" which, the same for us all, when opened to us brings Awareness- also called Sat. Indeed, Sat is One.

    Yes, there is two..
    When the window is shut to us, there is us and there is what lies beyond.

    Then, there is many..
    When the incoming Light, the Soma, brings to us many treasures through the open window.

    So which one is true? One, Two, Many?

    None. Because the words "One", "Two", "Many" have their birth in the Reality, they come from the Reality, therefore they cannot claim precedence over the Reality, they cannot define or confine it.

    Yet everyone of them is true, as discussed in the start.

    Let us talk about "the window", then. This is the only fruitful exercise.

    A good start to it is, arguably, a rejection of "all this visible world" with the belief that there are truths beyond it, that there is a window, and there is a whole new world on the other side. As a teenager I remember having gone through this.

    There is a time and space for everything.

    KT
    KT this is truly an enlightened and almost divine sent response! Please bring this to others, you are truly very much appreciated by seekers, thank you!

  6. #16
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    Re: other then 2...

    Namaste Yajvan,

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté



    ...yajvan, I do not understand what you are saying.

    In order to surrender there needs to be 'two' - he that is surrendering and that which is accepting the surrender.
    This, in part, is the essence of duality.

    Now the finer point to consider...

    In duality (dvitīya) there is a Supreme Being;
    In advitīya (without a second) , there is Supreme Being.

    By saying there is a Supreme Being it infers there are others that are not this. By saying there is Supreme Being , it infers there is nothing other then this.

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • ātmasamarpaṇaṃ = ātma+samarpaṇaṃ
      • ātma - Self
      • samarpaṇaṃ - handing completely over , consigning , presenting , imparting , bestowing
    My take on this issue :

    Any question which has arisen here in this thread or any doubt can arise when Duality exists. So, when the question is there, Duality is also there. When Duality ceases, the questions too cease to exist.

    Upanishads tell us that Duality is due to delusion of wrongly perceiving the non-existent multitude. It is like dreaming.

    It is One which appears as Many. Why do we say, TWO and not three or many ? Because of clubbing together and making two sub-sets of all that is. In one sub-set there is the Creator and in the other sub-set it is the Creation (which comprises everything which is created).

    Any thought / concept of "Atmasamarpan" can be only in Duality as correctly described above. However, when the "samparpan" is complete, the delusion of being different from the source is removed and what remains is One Reality.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  7. #17

    Re: other then 2...

    Namaste Kalicharan Tuvij,

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    ... There is only one "window" which, the same for us all, when opened to us brings Awareness- also called Sat. Indeed, Sat is One.
    Dear Kalicharan Tuvij Ji, If I might interject, as personally I find your description not in fitting with my experience.

    Might I refer to the quantum slit experiment in comparison to your window, I think this most relevant to the topic at hand as a depiction of reality our brains do function at this scale or level; how can we be certain that there is only one window? In my experience there are many billions, a population count will confirm this; how then can we be certain that this is indeed the same for us all, we accept that there are different loka don't we?

    If then there are two adjacent windows, this would quite feasibly cause quantum interference; physically changing that which is on the other side of the aperture ...

    That there is time and space:

    Delusion is arguably found in the assumption that we are all the same, that in our interactions we do not experience quantum effect caused by our temporal origin; The mind smooths this over for us, as we can see in the revelation of Bhagavad Gita chapter 11, from what might be otherwise be, quite a terrifying vision.
    We are the result of flourishing Karmic banks and experience reality upon such basis. Those who are caught up in tighter vritti will experience this much more servilely. The same underlying fabric of reality, but the experience its self is very different. Rather like karmic geometry; some of us are born on the planes and others in the mountains, consequently life is very different.

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Any thought / concept of "Atmasamarpan" can be only in Duality as correctly described above. However, when the "samparpan" is complete, the delusion of being different from the source is removed and what remains is One Reality.[/font][/color]
    Dear Devotee Ji, if this were to happen would we not be then in KRta Yuga?

    Kind regards.
    Last edited by Mana; 08 February 2014 at 05:11 AM.

  8. #18

    Re: other then 2...

    "There is a time and space for everything"

    So if there is: "There is One which appears as Many",
    There is: "There is Many which appears as One".
    -- depending upon which side of the "window" we take our standpoint on.

    How to say one is true and another is false?

    Even what is false is true. Like, in a cheap Bollywood cinema the dude with the unpleasant features playing clinically ("truthfully") the role of the villain (the "false"). (In yet another cheap twist the bad turns out to be the good and vice versa in the end, and guess what, angry public demands their money back)

    And what is true is false. Because the so called "truth" has moved on..it is not there at all anymore where it was one moment ago.

    So this "window" belongs to action, it is moving very fast. Let us talk about the window.

    But, is this knowledge literal? Can any string of words describe it? No.
    Can it be described by any string of words? Yes.

    Dear Mana,
    I appreciate your bringing in the material perspective into this. Yet, it (its vocab) is just another set of string of words, so nothing changes.
    Yet, the window is not the literal window ("slits").

    The window here is the discontinuous continuity of the photon: from being a particle to being a field (electromagnetic in this case). In the light of the above discussion, we can say, both states are simultaneously true. Yet on the surface of it, one seems to negate the other: creations and annihilations for instance, of the particle to and fro from the field. It is happening all the time, and very fast.

    It is happening now. Care to catch the bullet train? Remember there is no platforms at your luxury. Yet people are rushing..with plenty excitement in the air- knowing, once on board, we can be at many places simultaneously..even make friends and grow families simultaneously..grow.


    P.S.: thank you SF so much, always.
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  9. #19

    Re: other then 2...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    Namaste Kalicharan Tuvij,



    Dear Kalicharan Tuvij Ji, If I might interject, as personally I find your description not in fitting with my experience.

    Might I refer to the quantum slit experiment in comparison to your window, I think this most relevant to the topic at hand as a depiction of reality our brains do function at this scale or level; how can we be certain that there is only one window? In my experience there are many billions, a population count will confirm this; how then can we be certain that this is indeed the same for us all, we accept that there are different loka don't we?

    If then there are two adjacent windows, this would quite feasibly cause quantum interference; physically changing that which is on the other side of the aperture ...

    That there is time and space:

    Delusion is arguably found in the assumption that we are all the same, that in our interactions we do not experience quantum effect caused by our temporal origin; The mind smooths this over for us, as we can see in the revelation of Bhagavad Gita chapter 11, from what might be otherwise be, quite a terrifying vision.
    We are the result of flourishing Karmic banks and experience reality upon such basis. Those who are caught up in tighter vritti will experience this much more servilely. The same underlying fabric of reality, but the experience its self is very different. Rather like karmic geometry; some of us are born on the planes and others in the mountains, consequently life is very different.
    He's talking about Satya & Rta.

  10. #20
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    Re: other then 2...

    hariḥ o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Any question which has arisen here in this thread or any doubt can arise when Duality exists. So, when the question is there, Duality is also there. When Duality ceases, the questions too cease to exist.
    From the bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad - puruṣavidha-brāhmaṇa, 2nd śloka.
    Any time there is a sense of 2, fear arises i.e. dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati¹ - Fear is born of duality.

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • dvitiyad or dvitīya - 2nd or two , couple,
    • bhayam or bhaya - fear , alarm dread apprehension
      ( rooted in bhī to fear for , be anxious about )
    • vai an emphasis and affirmation , generally placed after a word
      and laying stress on it (it is usually translatable by 'indeed' ,
      'truly' , 'certainly' )
    • bhavati or bhava - arising or produced from , being in
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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