Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 38

Thread: other then 2...

  1. #21

    Re: other then 2...

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Namaste,
    The two: atma and Param-atma; the controlled and the controller.
    namasthe, satay.I missed reading simple and effective content of your posts .

  2. #22

    Re: other then 2...

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    In duality (dvitīya) there is a Supreme Being;
    In advitīya (without a second) , there is Supreme Being.

    By saying there is a Supreme Being it infers there are others that are not this. By saying there is Supreme Being , it infers there is nothing other then this.
    ..
    My simple mind says that other are not supreme.Here is the logic.

    If every one is supreme there is no need to do anything.No need to put efforts to achieve samadhi .No need to understand what the upanishad says.

    The manduka says about Moksha.If I am supreme (if there is no duality; the way it is portrayed by advaitans) there is no need for me to achieve moksha .

    Manduka upanishad says the seeker has to do Upasana to achieve the target (Supreme). If I am supreme there is no need for me to do anything to achieve supreme or oneness with supreme.

    The very fact the seeker NEEDS to do Upasana tells clearly that they (The seekers and the ignorant) are not supreme.
    Last edited by chandu_69; 14 February 2014 at 09:04 PM.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    64
    Posts
    7,591
    Rep Power
    381

    Re: other then 2...

    hariḥ o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by chandu_69 View Post
    My simple mind says that other are not supreme.Here is the logic.

    If every one is supreme there is no need to do anything.No need to put efforts to achieve samadhi .No need to understand what the upanishad says.

    The maduka says about Moksha.If I am supreme (if there is no duality; the way it is portrayed by advaitans) there is no need for me to achieve moksha .

    Manduka upanishad says the seeker has to do Upasana to achieve the target (Supreme). If I am supreme there is no need for me to do anything to achieve supreme or oneness with supreme.

    The very fact the seeker NEEDS to do Upasana tells clearly that they (The seekers and the ignorant) are not supreme.
    Your logic makes sense - yet consider this. If the Supreme is something to gain, then by this logic it is something that can be lost. This does not pass the common sense test - how can you lose Being ?

    By being something to attain, one needs to go outside one's Self. Yet we are told in the upaniṣad-s this Self is none other then brahman. We are informed that there is no place this brahman does not reside. Hence by this wisdom , brahman is here now in all of us, surrounds all of us. There is nothing to acquire only to re-recognize.

    This is the crux of one's upāsana. If we look to this word upāsana we know it has the notion of homage , adoration , practice. Yet upāsana also means the act of throwing off. What is there to throw off? Every-thing that is non-Self and what remains is Self/brahman.

    This is the wisdom found in the chandogya upaniṣad in the 7th khaṇḍa ( or section) where nārada-ji is being instructed by sanatjumāra.
    Look to 7.24.1 where nārada-ji asks, where can this bhūmā ( fullness/brahman) be found ? Sanatjumāra-ji says, bhūmā (brahman) being such is the Reality below, above, behind, before , on the left and on the right ( this is code for being ubiquitius or the fancy word called satatoditam¹) . Bhūmā indeed is all the worlds , says sanatjumāra-ji . Then he says - Now the same (is) taught regarding oneself. I am the Reality below, above, behind, before. to the right and to the left. I am indeed all these worlds.

    See the point ? There is no difference between me and brahman. I only need to re-recognize this truth. I do not need to attain something that is already me. This as aforementioned is the crux of one's upāsana or sādhana.

    iti śivaṁ

    1. satatoditam, without break or pause; 'without break or pause' is some times called avicchinnātaparamārthaṁ, uninterrupted, yet the word I often use is satatoditam (satata + udita)
    Last edited by yajvan; 14 February 2014 at 07:04 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #24

    Re: other then 2...

    namasthe,

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ o
    ~~~~~~
    namast



    Your logic makes sense - yet consider this. If the Supreme is something to gain, then by this logic it is something that can be lost. This does not pass the common sense test - how can you lose Being ?
    Let us dwell on this logic and common sense a bit .The appropriate wording, I think would be ,Realising the supreme.Either you realize the supreme (By identifying your self with (supreme)self ) or you don't. The question of losing, Logically speaking , doesn't arise unless you realize identification with supreme.realization that everything comes from supreme self .

    This explanation doesn't contradict what the upanishad says.everything is self because everything came from self.There is supreme self(In the beginning) from which everything emanates.


    By being something to attain, one needs to go outside one's Self. Yet we are told in the upaniṣad-s this Self is none other then brahman. We are informed that there is no place this brahman does not reside. Hence by this wisdom , brahman is here now in all of us, surrounds all of us. There is nothing to acquire only to re-recognize.
    The simple explanation is the upanishad is telling the seeker to identify with supreme self and proceed to achieve unity with supreme self.The means for attaining the Supreme is upasana.Upasana always was used to mean worship or a set of activities involving worship.Upasana is sadhana.Mere thinking is not sadhana or Upasana.One needs sadhana or Upasana to reach the goal of Brahman.identifying with supreme self makes you do upasana to reach the target.

    There is the seeker and there is the target.And there is effort(sadhana) involved .

    There is still a difference because the seeker has to do upasana (sadhana, an effort) to identify with supreme.If there is no effort (sadhana/ Upasana) involved and mere identification with supreme is adequate then the explanation that we are nothing but supreme would make sense.

    Since effort is involved to realize supreme, the self is definitely different from, self(Supreme).



    This is the crux of one's upāsana. If we look to this word upāsana we know it has the notion of homage , adoration , practice. Yet upāsana also means the act of throwing off. What is there to throw off? Every-thing that is non-Self and what remains is Self/brahman.

    This is the wisdom found in the chandogya upaniṣad in the 7th khaṇḍa ( or section) where nārada-ji is being instructed by sanatjumāra.
    Look to 7.24.1 where nārada-ji asks, where can this bhūmā ( fullness/brahman) be found ? Sanatjumāra-ji says, bhūmā (brahman) being such is the Reality below, above, behind, before , on the left and on the right ( this is code for being ubiquitius or the fancy word called satatoditam) . Bhūmā indeed is all the worlds , says sanatjumāra-ji . Then he says - Now the same (is) taught regarding oneself. I am the Reality below, above, behind, before. to the right and to the left. I am indeed all these worlds.

    See the point ? There is no difference between me and brahman. I only need to re-recognize this truth. I do not need to attain something that is already me. This as aforementioned is the crux of one's upāsana or sādhana.

    iti śivaṁ

    1. satatoditam, without break or pause; 'without break or pause' is some times called avicchinnātaparamārthaṁ, uninterrupted, yet the word I often use is satatoditam (satata + udita)
    Last edited by chandu_69; 14 February 2014 at 08:06 PM.

  5. #25

    Re: other then 2...

    As mentioned by satay there is controller.

    Mandukya (verse 6) says the controller is source of All.Is the origin of every being. In to which everything dissolve .

    As long as there is a controller there is the controlled.

    Everything is self means everything comes from self(Supreme).The alternative explanation (of the the advaitan kind) would mean there is no controller.

  6. #26

    Re: other then 2...

    I am joining with sivafan in applauding this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    Namaste.

    Yes..there is One, only one..
    There is only one "window" which, the same for us all, when opened to us brings Awareness- also called Sat. Indeed, Sat is One.

    Yes, there is two..
    When the window is shut to us, there is us and there is what lies beyond.

    Then, there is many..
    When the incoming Light, the Soma, brings to us many treasures through the open window.

    So which one is true? One, Two, Many?

    None. Because the words "One", "Two", "Many" have their birth in the Reality, they come from the Reality, therefore they cannot claim precedence over the Reality, they cannot define or confine it.

    Yet everyone of them is true, as discussed in the start.

    Let us talk about "the window", then. This is the only fruitful exercise.

    A good start to it is, arguably, a rejection of "all this visible world" with the belief that there are truths beyond it, that there is a window, and there is a whole new world on the other side. As a teenager I remember having gone through this.

    There is a time and space for everything.

    KT

  7. #27
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    64
    Posts
    7,591
    Rep Power
    381

    Re: other then 2...

    hariḥ o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by chandu_69 View Post
    The simple explanation is the upanishad is telling the seeker to identify with supreme self and proceed to achieve unity with supreme self.The means for attaining the Supreme is upasana.Upasana always was used to mean worship or a set of activities involving worship.Upasana is sadhana.Mere thinking is not sadhana or Upasana.One needs sadhana or Upasana to reach the goal of Brahman.identifying with supreme self makes you do upasana to reach the target.
    This is where we differ... yet I wish not to convince. The notion to identify suggests two. Me and the Supreme. In ignorance this is perfectly reasonable.

    One need / uses upāsana or sādhana not to do more, but to do less. If one does less perfectly , to the point of doing nothing perfectly one arrives at the conclusion that they have always been and always will be brahman.

    I will leave it there for now. Thank you again for your points of view and for the time to post your ideas.

    iti śivaṁ

    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #28

    Re: other then 2...

    Namaste,

    Thank you Yajvan Ji for this thought provoking thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    ...

    Dear Mana,
    I appreciate your bringing in the material perspective into this. Yet, it (its vocab) is just another set of string of words, so nothing changes.
    Yet, the window is not the literal window ("slits").

    The window here is the discontinuous continuity of the photon: from being a particle to being a field (electromagnetic in this case). In the light of the above discussion, we can say, both states are simultaneously true. Yet on the surface of it, one seems to negate the other: creations and annihilations for instance, of the particle to and fro from the field. It is happening all the time, and very fast.
    Dear Kalicharan Tuvij,

    I was referring to particle wave interference which appears only in the presence of two apertures (observers) and in my mind comparing this effect to human interaction; as such the effect is seen between two jiva; rather like the learning effect of Guru & śiṣya; it can only be perceived in this way. As such, singularity collapse this wave form, this sound.
    Far from being material, yet this exists as sound in the material world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    He's talking about Satya & Rta.
    Thank you Sudas, from a three fold symmetry, six ṛta and consequently koṣa emerge ...
    All is still one infinity in its course, but time differentiates and makes this most difficult to perceive. Rather like looking for the separation between musical notes; some will hear the difference others will not; together we dance:

    Kind regards.

    Iain
    Last edited by Mana; 15 February 2014 at 01:50 AM.

  9. #29

    Re: other then 2...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    I was referring to particle wave interference which appears only in the presence of two apertures (observers) and in my mind comparing this effect to human interaction; as such the effect is seen between two jiva; rather like the learning effect of Guru & śiṣya; it can only be perceived in this way. As such, singularity collapse this wave form, this sound.
    namaste Mana.
    The observer here is the the screen that receives the interference pattern. The slits are not what is causing the interference--rather it is them what reduces the normal interference (present as a patternless noise in mundane life) to an extent that we are able to see the wave pattern by the screen.
    To paraphrase what a poster already said in this thread: "Less Action is More Action".

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    He's talking about Satya & Rta.
    No dear. I am talking about Yagya. This is what 99% of my time I do.

    jai Ram ji ki.


    P.S.: another word from Mana, and..
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  10. #30

    Re: other then 2...

    Namaste,

    I forgot to add:

    Some can smell the flowers, some can not.

    Kind regards.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •