Do converts to Hinduism join a caste?

[explorer_of_the_mind]

I know that there is a caste system in Hinduism, but what happens when someone converts to Hinduism? Are they brought into the caste system, such as Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra etc.? Or are they still outside the caste system, since they were not born into Hinduism? This is something that has always puzzled me.

[sm78]

I know that there is a caste system in Hinduism, but what happens when someone converts to Hinduism? Are they brought into the caste system, such as Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra etc.? Or are they still outside the caste system, since they were not born into Hinduism? This is something that has always puzzled me.

In general most people from outside hinduism only take up a spiritual practice and do not convert formally. This is because I think we have no smartic rules on how to handle conversion. Smarta sects in particular do not believe that anyone can be converted to a hindu.

Outside the orthodox smarta and vaishnava sects other sects (particularly some saiva sects) do not necessarily believe in the rigidity of the caste system and thus conversion is not a big issue.

But as I said, I don't think most of the western hindu's are formally hindus. This is fine at the individual level ~ but is a big weakness at the social level. Our culture believes in propagation of the culture through generations ~ yet we have no means to propagate the culture in those who have embraced it from outside.

There are sometimes news of people in India re-converting to Hinduism after being converted to another religion ~ caste issues are minimal here as they already had a caste in hinduism and can re-join the same caste in which they belonged.

[explorer_of_the_mind]

That is very interesting. A woman on www.beliefnet.com announced on the Hindu forum that she was converting to Hinduism. But she converted as a Shaivite, so what you've said makes sense now.

So, am I correct in assuming that one can practice Hinduism without actually joining the religion formally? That seems to be the case with a lot of Westerners who practice Buddhism: they incorporate the religion into their lives, without formally converting. However, with Buddhism, there is no belief in caste, so outsiders can formally convert.

[sm78]

That is very interesting. A woman on www.beliefnet.com announced on the Hindu forum that she was converting to Hinduism. But she converted as a Shaivite, so what you've said makes sense now.

So, am I correct in assuming that one can practice Hinduism without actually joining the religion formally? That seems to be the case with a lot of Westerners who practice Buddhism: they incorporate the religion into their lives, without formally converting. However, with Buddhism, there is no belief in caste, so outsiders can formally convert.

Hinduism was not an organized religion and there are many teachers who take devotees from other religions as deciples without asking for conversion.

Practice in Hinduism in the spiritual sense really starts only after one has a preceptor or Guru. In case one's preceptor doesn't require any conversion (which is very likely), then there is no need for conversion.

Buddhism though an offshoot of the Sanatana Dharma and has so much similarities to it, still has one main difference. This is that it too like the middle eastern faith systems strongly believes in conversion ~ if I am not wrong. People may not convert because they do not formally follow a buddhist master ~ but I think buddhism very much encourages conversion. After all, belief in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha are the 3 jewels by which every buddhist must live.

[saidevo]

Namaste.

I know that there is a caste system in Hinduism, but what happens when someone converts to Hinduism? Are they brought into the caste system, such as Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra etc.? Or are they still outside the caste system, since they were not born into Hinduism? This is something that has always puzzled me.

Because of the growing interest of Westerners to follow as well as to actually get converted to Sanatana Dharma, the Himalayan Academy established by in the USA Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami has formalized conversion into Sanatana Dharma. According to them, an outsider adopts a Hindu name and Hindu Sect, but is not admitted to any caste. Incidentally, varna refers more to the profession than the caste. I think a westerner who has become a pundit in the Vedas and actually practices it, automatically fits into the Brahmana varna (not caste) and earns the title Acharya or Shastry. An example is the famous Dr David Frawley aka Vamadeva Shastry.

The following link to a publication by the Himalayan Academy has the formality for conversion, complete with certificates and sanction to visit all Hindu temples:
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/reso.../hbh_ch-7.html

I am not aware of any such formal arrangements existing in the Hindu religious institutions in India.

[Agnideva]

Namaste Explorer,

What you ask are very important questions. There are various opinions within Hinduism about both conversion and caste, and each person may give you a different answer. Here’s mine:

When it comes to conversion, there are two schools of thought. There is the orthodox brahmanical (Smarta) view that a person cannot be converted to Hinduism – this view is sometimes found in textbooks. Many believe this point of view became formalized in medieval Hinduism because ancient brahmana texts of the Vedas do speak of conversion, and have specified rituals for conversion. The reform Hindu organization called Arya Samaj actually brought back the conversion process in the late 19th century. The conversion process involves a shuddhi (purification) and a namakarana (name-giving). The other side is the Agamic schools of Vaishnavism, Shaivism and Shaktism which do, and probably always have, accepted converts through the namakarana process.

When it comes to caste, we must understand that there are two types of “caste systems.” The one Sanatana Dharma texts speak of is called the varna system. Varna means “color” and it is the temperament that colors one’s mind. One chooses to follow one’s path in life based one’s own temperaments and natural propensities – this is the basis of the four-fold system and its original intention. Note that at different times of one’s life, and even at different times of the day, I may be of different varnas (this is my personal interpretation).

Then there is the social system followed by people of the Indian subcontinent called caste (from Portuguese casta, meaning breed), known in Indian languages as jati (birth). All people in the Indian subcontinent have a jati, regardless of religion. This is similar to how we have in the US terms like Italian-American, Mexican-American, Indian-American, etc. The jati system is birth-based, and generally people within a given jati have been largely endogamous. Historically what has happened is that entire jatis have claimed to be part of a varna, and so the varna system also came to be regarded as birth-based in medieval Hinduism. This has also created a social hierarchy in the Indian subcontinent and had led to many problems that continue even today.

So, if a person is converting to Hinduism, s/he need not worry about the jati as that is something only a South-Asian person can have through birth. And, one really need not worry about varna either because that is something you define for yourself. In it’s Indian context, Hinduism is both a culture and religion, but in its western context, Hinduism is a religion only. So conversion into Hindu religion is fully possible (if that is what one chooses), and classification into any caste label is completely unnecessary.

Traditional Hindu priests belonging to the Vaishnava, Shaiva and Shakta schools do perform namakarana ritual for non-Hindus, and so does the Arya Samaj. The Himalayan Academy reports, however, that Smarta priests have refused to perform the ritual.

OM Shanti,
A.

[Jigar]

Namaste Explorer
Then there is the social system followed by people of the Indian subcontinent called caste (from Portuguese casta, meaning breed), known in Indian languages as jati (birth). All people in the Indian subcontinent have a jati, regardless of religion. This is similar to how we have in the US terms like Italian-American, Mexican-American, Indian-American, etc. The jati system is birth-based, and generally people within a given jati have been largely endogamous. Historically what has happened is that entire jatis have claimed to be part of a varna, and so the varna system also came to be regarded as birth-based in medieval Hinduism. This has also created a social hierarchy in the Indian subcontinent and had led to many problems that continue even today.


OM Shanti,


A.

Namaste Agnideva,
The Jāti heirarchial order of Kerala society, in the past, was a means of delegating duties and profession to people. Now considered to be outdated and unnecessary, it merely assumes a historical value. Note: The "Jāti system" is since the Vedic "Varna system" is not applicable to South India.

Is this another jati System?


Om Kara,
Jigar

[Agnideva]

Namaste Agnideva,
The Jāti heirarchial order of Kerala society, in the past, was a means of delegating duties and profession to people. Now considered to be outdated and unnecessary, it merely assumes a historical value. Note: The "Jāti system" is since the Vedic "Varna system" is not applicable to South India.

Is this another jati System?

Namaste Jigar,

From where we stand, the jati system and Vedic varna system are completely mixed, so it's hard to differentiate between the two of them, and most don't differentiate between the two calling both as "caste." Jati is both a birth and an occupational guild, and many jati names are based on occupation. For example, the name Gandhi means grocer, and Gandhis have claimed vaishya (vanik) as their varna.

As for the above, what the writer says could be said for any part of the Indian subcontinent, and is not special to Kerala or South India. I am not sure what s/he means by "the Vedic 'varna system' is not applicable to South India." South Indians have used varna labels as much as Hindus everywhere else.

Regards,
A.

[Bhairava108]

This is how I have understood Caste and Hinduism, all though being part of the same whole. where as one can adopt or convert to Hinduism one can not adopt or join a caste. infact anyone outside the caste system is considered an untouchable. And if you are a western Hindu even if you have been formaly converted to Hinduism you are not allowed in some Temples throughout India and Nepal. personally I think the Caste system should be returned to its Vedic roots or abolished cause it has deffinatley become a means of clear discrimination.

[KiranDev]

Namaste,
As I understand it, in ancient Vedic society, a person's aptitude (guna), conduct (karma) and nature (swabhava) were considered in order to assign him his/her varna. Only later did it become hereditary. Thus, it seems a convert to Hinduism should be able to adopt a varna based on his/her guna, karma, and swabhava.

In my case, I apopted the kshatriya varna along with its duties. In adopting this varna, it was clear that this means to protect Dharma and the people. Kshatriya's are sanctioned by God to serve humanity - these duties I humbly accepted and seek to fulfill. Luckily, Rama is there as a role model.

Aum shanti,

Kiran