Do converts to Hinduism join a caste?

[Agnideva]

Namaste KiranDev,

As I understand it, in ancient Vedic society, a person's aptitude (guna), conduct (karma) and nature (swabhava) were considered in order to assign him his/her varna. Only later did it become hereditary. Thus, it seems a convert to Hinduism should be able to adopt a varna based on his/her guna, karma, and swabhava.

In my case, I apopted the kshatriya varna along with its duties. In adopting this varna, it was clear that this means to protect Dharma and the people. Kshatriya's are sanctioned by God to serve humanity - these duties I humbly accepted and seek to fulfill. Luckily, Rama is there as a role model.

A most beautiful message. I hope one day all Hindus will begin to see it like this, and drop the birth-based system and all biases that go with it.

Regards,
A.

[satay]

Namaste KiranDev,

A most beautiful message. I hope one day all Hindus will begin to see it like this, and drop the birth-based system and all biases that go with it.

Regards,
A.

namaste,
I agree though not completely. I don't think that hindus need to drop the caste system (birth based). However, those who are born outside of a caste are already in a varna as KiranDev so beautifully described.

Caste system is a different story.

I don't know why we should drop the caste system. What's wrong with it?
Just because it has a target written all over it and missionaries have been attacking it for hundreds of years, doesn't make the system wrong. The system was designed to deal with muslim tyranny, in my opinion but now is part of the Indian culture. If someone (missionaries) don't like it, so what should we do?

let's try to collect some good things about the caste system in a different thread.

ps: just being 'devil's advocate'

[Agnideva]

Namaste Satay,

ps: just being 'devil's advocate'

Sometimes, we need devil's advocates .

This is the way I see it. There are two systems here: one is the varna which is what KiranDev has described. There are only four varnas, no fifth. The other one is jati (caste), which is a based on birth and hereditary occupation. There are 6000-7000 jatis in South Asia, and all people there have jatis, whether they are Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, etc.

Today what we have is massive confusion of the two systems, and people of certain jatis hereditarily claim a certain varna and believe that one is born into it. Varna, the way I see it, is not determined by birth, but by a person’s temperament. It can only be self-defined. In fact, I personally believe just like the three gunas are within each of us, so are the four varnas.

Jati is part of one’s tribal/ethnic background and cannot be dropped, as it is part of a person’s identity. No one needs to drop that. One only needs to admit that varnas are independent of jati, and are to be self-defined as KiranDev has done. This is my personal take on the subject.

OM Shanti,
A.

[satay]

Jati is part of one’s tribal/ethnic background and cannot be dropped, as it is part of a person’s identity. No one needs to drop that. One only needs to admit that varnas are independent of jati, and are to be self-defined as KiranDev has done. This is my personal take on the subject.

OM Shanti,
A.

Another great post! Yes, I agree with your personal take on the subject, completely.

Nicely put.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam All

Varnashram is a perfect system ordained by Krishna

Over the time with the on set of kali the system has largely been diluted the standard has dropped in all the varna.

It is still the best system on offer if we strip out the discriminatory and egoistic superiority complex.


catur-varnyam maya srstam
guna-karma-vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api mam
viddhy akartaram avyayam

The four Varna or divisions of human society, based on aptitude and vocation, were created by Me. Though I am the author of this system, one should know that I do nothing and I am eternal. (See also 18.41) (4.13)

brahmana-ksatriya-visam
sudranam ca parantapa
karmani pravibhaktani
svabhava-prabhavair gunaih


The division of labor into the four cate-goies -- Braahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra -- is also based on the Gunas inherent in peoples' nature (or the natural propensities, and not necessarily as one's birth right), O Arjuna. (See also 4.13) (18.41)

It is quite clear guna and karma plays an important part in establishing this system. So where does birth fit in all this?
The varna system today is in dire state, but still plays an important part in the society weather we like it or not.

It has become fashionable to blame the Varna system especially the birth based, the chaos that we see, this inequality (exists in every society) has made the cast system the main target of blame not without some justification, also an easy target for those forces who conspire to malign Hindu dharma.

At what point varna would best be decided.How would a varna system function, who would decide what varna one belong to? Just as in school we get graded according to our ability and final result at the end of a term so in my understanding the birth plays a significant role in deciding the varna of a person. . After all if we believe in karma then it is at the end of ones life time we have to accept our new beginning.
Of course in an exceptional circumstance a student may be promoted to higher class so there always remains a scope to change ones varna in the same lifetime

yam yam vapi smaran bhavam
tyajaty ante kalevaram
tam tam evaiti kaunteya
sada tad-bhava-habitat

Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail. (8.06)

Such a yogi is born in a family of wise transcendentalists. A birth like this is very difficult, indeed, to obtain in this world. (6.42)

After taking such a birth, O Arjuna, one regains the knowledge acquired in the previous life, and strives again to achieve perfection. (6.43)

Jai Shree Krishna

[devisarada]

Just to add my two cents worth on this topic, among the born Hindus that I socialize with most, (West Indians) caste is not that important. In fact, a lot of them are not sure of their caste, with the exception of Brahmins. It seems that even non-Brahmins are being accepted in Mandirs as pujaris within our communty.

[satay]

Just to add my two cents worth on this topic, among the born Hindus that I socialize with most, (West Indians) caste is not that important. In fact, a lot of them are not sure of their caste, with the exception of Brahmins. It seems that even non-Brahmins are being accepted in Mandirs as pujaris within our communty.

Namaste Devi!

It has been a very long time...I am very happy to see you back!

[devisarada]

Namaste Devi!

It has been a very long time...I am very happy to see you back!

I'm happy to be here, hopefully, I'll have more time to spend with you. I like what I see on this forum!

[Eastern Mind]

As a Hindu adoptive (Saiva), I do not believe in caste. I do believe in conduct putting you in a particular regard within the community. "From across the tracks" in the west. Caste ought to be determined by behaviour. Other than the 'brahmin' / non-brahmin duality, (Brahmin only does the pujas in the sanctum) in the community I associate with there is very little sense of caste. Of course its there in some individuals, and in some of the temples I've visited, I've felt very unwelcome because of my skin color. Could have just been my paranoia though. I do remember a small child approaching me in Toronto and being a child, and curious, saying to me, "White people don't worship Hindu gods." She was cute, and since I am a teacher by profession, I said. "Oh, yeah? Some do. Come with me." So she followed along as I prostrated, tugged my ears in front of Ganesha, and basically made the rounds of the temple with her in tow.
"So what do you think now?" I asked her. She gave that innocent lovely childish smile and said, "Yup, I guess some do."
Aum Namashivaya

[devisarada]

namaste,
I agree though not completely. I don't think that hindus need to drop the caste system (birth based). However, those who are born outside of a caste are already in a varna as KiranDev so beautifully described.

Caste system is a different story.

I don't know why we should drop the caste system. What's wrong with it?
Just because it has a target written all over it and missionaries have been attacking it for hundreds of years, doesn't make the system wrong. The system was designed to deal with muslim tyranny, in my opinion but now is part of the Indian culture. If someone (missionaries) don't like it, so what should we do?

let's try to collect some good things about the caste system in a different thread.

ps: just being 'devil's advocate'

I think a thread on the positive aspects of the jati system would be very helpful. All societies have this at some level, even if it is not formally recognised.