Desireless action

[wundermonk]

This only says to have no desire for the 'fruit' of the action. It says nothing about desire in relation to the action itself. Obviously 'desire' is a necessary condition for action otherwise how else are we going to act on anything?

Excellent. So, we have two types of desires:

(1) Desires for ends/fruits.

(2) Desires for means to ends/fruits.

So, Krishna is against desires of type (1) but favours desires of type (2).

Is there any evidence of desires of type (2)? Do humans ever engage in action purely motivated by desires of type (2)?

Nityakamas are those injunctions/vidhis of the Vedas for which there is no prescribed fruit.

Non-performance of Nityakarmic vidhis leads to acquisition of demerit. While performance of these same vidhis does not lead to any new acquisition of merit. So, by default, the expectation of God is that we do our work/duty. Merit is not acquired by doing duty. Only demerit accrues by non-performance of duty.

Lokasamgraha (for the benefit/welfare of the world) is enjoined in BG 3:25:

Just as the ignorant, attached to their work, act, O Arjuna, so too the learned should act without any attachment, and only for the welfare of the world.

Is "welfare of the world" a karmaphala (desire for a result)?

[Mana]

Namaste All,

Wondermonk in light of bullet point number two:

Yes I think so, by way of music. I often hear the desire in a frustrated musicians voice. It is found somewhere tucked right at the back of the mind, between their intonation and their thought, between the pada; Almost as though it were blocking something from shining through them. Perhaps, were it that they were to let go, they might improve greatly in their chosen field. After which; I think it would be fair to say that they might very well remain desirios, of doing something which brings them such a peaceful state of mind. Perhaps even a little joy to themselves and others.

In these instances I like to think that they are connected to something higher; rather than to any others views, or, any material reward.

Is it not the same for puja?

Kind regards.

[satay]

Namaste,

Is "welfare of the world" a karmaphala (desire for a result)?

After reading your post again I decided to delete my previous response.

'act for the welfare of the world' seems to be an instruction irrelevant of desire.

While performance of these same vidhis does not lead to any new acquisition of merit.

Where is this mentioned?

[satay]

Namaste,

Namaste,
One of their coaches once said : "Focus on the process and not the outcome. Well performed process will take care of the result but focusing on result will make you lose focus on the process and that would result bad result."

OM

This is true. I read somewhere (in a management book) that I am paraphrasing 'your team doesn't need to be 'managed', only manage 'processes' for them, simplify the processes for them and the team will follow.' In my practical experience, this is true.

[jignyAsu]

Hello all,

Let us discuss the following.

Premise 1: Krishna advises Arjuna to act without desire.

Premise 2: Desire is a necessary condition of action.

Conclusion: Therefore, Krishna's advice is a contradiction.

Regards,

WM

Namaste Wm,

It seems that when Krishna is asking Arjuna to fight without desire or being the same to dualities, it is only the material/temporary desires that He is talking about. The mumukhsu performs his duties with the desire of self realization and eternal union with Krishna.

In start of Chapter 3, Arjuna asks for instructions by which he can attain the highest- that is his desire for which Krishna describes the "path" taken by the yOgis to be liberated from the temporary worlds, to attain the Atma and get freed of birth and death. So, when an ordinary Kshatriya performs his duty for various temporary benefits like heaven etc., the karma yogi performs the same duty by renouncing doership and fruits of action with the desire of attaining everlasting abode. When one progresses to Bhakti yoga, he too desires eternal union with Him which is obvious.

So, it looks like the desire is very much there.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

But what is the crux of kṛṣṇa-ji 's teaching ? I see it in the bhāgavad gītā, chapter 2, 48th śloka. Kṛṣṇa-ji informs us , yogasthaḥ kuru karmānī- established (or steadfast) in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma).
Within yoga (union) that kṛṣṇa-ji suggests, there is perfect balance, or sattva¹. So, fast forward to the 14th chapter, 16th śloka we find kṛṣṇa-ji saying that success, happiness, bliss (sukṛta¹) is born of sattva (sāttvkaṁ).

What then is the overall message ? When one is established in union ( of the Supreme no less) one becomes increasingly skillful. Actions are not only right actions in accord with dharma ( natural law) they are also uplifting and bring success and happiness. Yet this person who is established in yoga is not bound/attached to the actions and there are no binding influences a.k.a. vāsanā-s¹.

iti śivaṁ

words

• sattva- being, wholeness, purity, that one unfolds their essence (sārah). The implications are substantial . It is not by acting good that one unfolds, but by infusing the highest good in one's self that unfoldment occurs to ones delight.
  • sattva - in the sāṃkhya view of reality it is the highest of the three guṇa-s. With one's spiritual practice over time, sattva infusion into one's behavior unfolds their essence (sārah) of being as their true nature
• sukṛta - meritorious act , virtue , moral merit ; well-conducted , virtuous , fortunate ; another name for prajā-pati
• vāsanā - impressions that spring additional desire-action cycles.

[Amrut]

Namaste,

Sri Ramakrishna says that as delivery date of a pregnant women approaches, work is reduced. After 7 months, limited work is given and after delivery (GYAna), no work is given, only taking care of child (staying with GYAna) is given.

Practically, when sattva reaches it's pinnacle, then amount of work, physical work, decreases and a person becomes more and more introvert. Introvert person's prArabhdha is still extant, but s/he does not take any new initiative.

If you plan anything, then it is your initiative. This means the karma is sakAma.

Surrendering fruits helps one detach, remove expectations and thereby help one not to think about anything else than God. After moksha is the only desire left, God will remove that vAsanA too.

when one is strongly surrendered, the effect of anything else, like work pressure, etc do not influence his mind.

Everything just happens, Life is a happening. Also ISvara takes care of our body (yoga kshema vahamya ham).

OM

[Amrut]

Namaste,

If we remember two verses of Gita -

Gita begins with mOhAndha saying dharma kshetre ... Even Arjun is full of mOha and questions Krishna how can I kill my relatives

(then comes instructions of action with detachment / do not expect fruits)

Arjun asks give me what is best for me

Last verse of Arjun is naShTO mOha smrutir labdhA ... kariShye vacaman tava

This means -

1. Arjun's mOha is destroyed.
2. He is not inclined either to act or not to act (karma or karma sanyAsa).
3. Unconditional surrender to the Lord.

Does this mean our jorney is - karma --> niSkAma karma --> akarma ?

OM

[satay]

Namaste,

If we remember two verses of Gita -

Gita begins with mOhAndha saying dharma kshetre ... Even Arjun is full of mOha and questions Krishna how can I kill my relatives

(then comes instructions of action with detachment / do not expect fruits)

Arjun asks give me what is best for me

Last verse of Arjun is naShTO mOha smrutir labdhA ... kariShye vacaman tava

This means -

1. Arjun's mOha is destroyed.
2. He is not inclined either to act or not to act (karma or karma sanyAsa).
3. Unconditional surrender to the Lord.

Does this mean our jorney is - karma --> niSkAma karma --> akarma ?

OM

Namaste,
The end stage cannot be 'akarma' as in chapter 3 Krishna says that he himself continues to perform karma even when there is no need for him to do so. If he continues to perform...

[Amrut]

Namaste,
The end stage cannot be 'akarma' as in chapter 3 Krishna says that he himself continues to perform karma even when there is no need for him to do so. If he continues to perform...

Namaste,

In case of both sakAm and niSkAma karma, karma produces fruit and one has to bare it. In case of niSkAma karma, the person does not expect any desired fruit and surrenders his fruits to ISvara.

in akarma sthiti, the karma does not produce fruit. So there is neither suffering nor happiness, hence there is no further stimulation to do any karma based on the earlier karma. So there is no rebirth.

In case of bhagavAn, we can say that he himself is not bound by his karma, nor does he say anywhere that he also has to pass through merits / demerits of his own karma.

In case of GYAnI, since he is never a doer, he is not attached to anything that is done by or via non-self. Hence his own actions does not yield any fruits to himself.

I had read somewhere that merits of GYAnI are bestowed to his disciples, while demerits of GYAnI are passed on to his enemies.

bhagavAn also says that by a GYAnI can kill lakhs of people, but not even a stain of blood can touch him. How is this possible? Because he is not doing any karma by himself. ISvara takes control of his body and uses the way he wants to.

Since arjuna was qualified for karma and not GYAna, hence to encourage him bhagavAn must have said.

3.21 Whatever a superior person does, another person does that very thing! Whatever he upholds as authority, an ordinary person follows that.

3.23 For, should I not ever engage Myself in action, unwearied, men would in every way follow My path, O Arjuna.

3.24 These worlds would perish if I did not perform action; I should be the author of confusion of castes and destruction of these beings.

3.25 O scion of the Bharata dynasty, as the unelightened poeple act with attachment to work, so should the enlightened person act, without attachment, being desirous of the prevention of people from going astray.

3.26 Let no wise man unsettle the mind of ignorant people who are attached to action; he should engage them in all actions, himself fulfilling them with devotion.

Later verses explain the reason why GYAnI should act as aGYAnI

Chapter 3 begins with praise of GYAna, then arjuna gets confused, then bhagavAn talks from jIva bhAva BG 3.5 and later

3.5 Because, no one ever remains even for a moment without doing work. For all are made to work under compulsion by the gunas born of Nature.

GYAnI is beyond guNa-s, refer BG 14.24-25

14.24 He to whom sorrow and happiness are alike, who is established in his own Self, to whom a lump of earth, iron and gold are the same, to whom the agreeable and the disagreeable are the same, who is wise, to whom censure and his own praise are the same;

14.25 He who is the same under honour and dishonour, who is equally disposed both towards the side of the friend and of the foe, who has renounced all enterprise,-he is said to have gone beyond the qualities.

Also note

3.17 But that man who rejoices only in the Self and is satisfied with the Self, and is contented only in the Self-for him there is no duty to perform.

3.18 For him there is no concern here at all with performing action; nor any (concern) with nonperformance. Moreover, for him there is no dependence on any object to serve any purpose.

3.22 In all the three worlds, O Partha, there is no duty whatsoever for Me (to fulfil); nothing remains unachieved or to be achieved.

----

What is important is our attachment to guNa-s and agent of action like mind, senses, etc, through which action takes place. Ego makes us feel that 'we' are doing action. If one stays detached form all these, then one cannot act. The mental state of such saint is neutral, peaceful and full of bliss.

Not the external action, but internal state is important. Attachment is through mind i.e. mind gets attached to gross objects and not vice versa.

Hari OM