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Thread: VISHNU SAHASRANAMA- BIG DOUBT

  1. #31
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    Smile Re: VISHNU SAHASRANAMA- BIG DOUBT

    प्रणाम || जय गणेश जय कृष्ण रुक्मिणी ||

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    The nyasa is not a part of the Mahabharata, but from Tantric origin. It has become customary, especially in South India, to chant it along the Sahasranama. The phala shruti has also been extended with shlokas from other sources, including the Bhagavad Gita. The dhyana shlokas are also not found in the Mahabharata.

    Disagreed ! Nyasa is not indigenous to south only. It is an ancient standard practice of whole BharataVarsha. North indians abandoned Nyasa Practice. The reason may be Muslim's invasion. It destroyed some vaidik beliefs and practices.But South including Maharashtra mostly remained aloof and retained purest Vaidik Dharma. The same thing for classical music and Dance, which differs from North tradition as one can see North Dance tradition having some aspects of Islmic Dance tradition.

    Back on to the topic..There're three types of worship of Vishnu. Vaidik, Tantrika and Mishra. Mishra is the mixture of Vaidik and Tantrik and people generally follow their desired type of worship.

    Krishna himself said how to worship him. You'll get details about this in Bhagavata Purana- Uddhava Gita - KriyaYoga. There it is said :

    " My worship is of three types. Vaidik, Tantrik and Mixed. One should choose whatever he wishes" (7)

    " First worshipper should do AngaNyasa and KaraNyasa. He,should gently wash the earlier paste of the image and that image is similarly consecrated and then duly adorned with the paste and flowers, the pitcher full of water to be used in the worship." (20)

    One thing is very important. The idea behind Nyasa is that worshipper is Narayana himself playing the role of the worshipper. In this way when one makes Nyasa, it creates a Nirguna devotion where separate sense and the recognition as the worshipper and the God, disappears. This is the purest path of devotion where there's no place for Maya(Duality).

    Any mantra should be recited while touching the hands and various parts of the body. It is a standard practice.

    It's interesting to note that Krishna guides us to worship him by both Vaidik and Tantrika menthods. Both are valid and supreme, leads the devotee to the Parabrahman. So I think Nyasa and Dhyana Shlokas are highly recommended during reciting Vishnu Sahastranama. When one does this, it becomes an authentic worship of Vishnu.



    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 19 May 2014 at 05:41 AM.

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    Re: VISHNU SAHASRANAMA- BIG DOUBT

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Disagreed ! Nyasa is not indigenous to south only.
    Do you even read? I never said such a thing.

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    Re: VISHNU SAHASRANAMA- BIG DOUBT

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    One thing is very important. The idea behind Nyasa is that worshipper is Narayana himself playing the role of the worshipper. In this way when one makes Nyasa, it creates a Nirguna devotion where separate sense and the recognition as the worshipper and the God, disappears. This is the purest path of devotion where there's no place for Maya(Duality).
    That's not how it is perceived in the mainstream vaishnava sampradayas. The sense of duality "I'm a devotee of the Lord" and "He is my Lord" never vanishes for a vaishnava devotee (bhakta) because that sense of duality continues eternally even when the devotee reaches the world of Vaikuntha where he continues eternally being dedicated to the Lord with devotion (bhakti).
    This sense of duality "I'm a devotee of the Lord" and "He is my Lord" with devotion (bhakti) in Vaikuntha is permanent and eternal state of liberation (mukti), which is the ultimate goal for every yogi who:
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe15/sbe15012.htm

    "reaches the end of the journey, the Highest abode of Vishnu" (Katha Upanishad 1.3.9)

    and also

    "he reaches indeed that place, from whence he is not born again." (Katha Upanishad 1.3.8)

    This "the end of the journey" and "he is not born again" tells us that this viṣṇoḥ paramaḿ padam "Highest abode of Vishnu" (called Vaikuntha in the Puranas) is a place of liberation (mukti, "he is not born again"), which is the final and ultimate goal for every yogi ("the end of the journey"). !!!
    This is also confirmed in the Bhagavad gita 8.21:
    http://vedabase.net/bg/8/21/en

    "That which the Vedāntists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns — that is My supreme abode."

    Here also the Lord's abode is described as "the supreme destination" and "place from which, having attained it, one never returns" tells us that this is a place of liberation (mukti, "one never returns"), which is the ultimate goal for every yogi ("the supreme destination")!!!

    Yes, my dear, that's what they say, Shruti and Smriti. Needless to say how many such verses we read in the Puranas and Mahabharata. Indeed, plenty of verses.


    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Any mantra should be recited while touching the hands and various parts of the body. It is a standard practice.

    It's interesting to note that Krishna guides us to worship him by both Vaidik and Tantrika menthods. Both are valid and supreme, leads the devotee to the Parabrahman. So I think Nyasa and Dhyana Shlokas are highly recommended during reciting Vishnu Sahastranama. When one does this, it becomes an authentic worship of Vishnu.
    This Nyasa is a Vedic practice and is associated with the worship of the deities at the altar in the temple, as described in the Bhagavatam, canto 11, ch. 27: http://vedabase.net/sb/11/27/en

    However it has nothing to do with the recitation of the Vishnu sahasra nama, 1000 holy names of Lord Vishnu located in the Mahabharata and also in some Puranas because there was not given instruction of Nyasa to be performed. So, recitation of the Vishnu sahasra nama has nothing to do with Nyasa or any other Vedic practice, and therefore can be practiced by anyone, even by shudras.


    regards

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    Re: VISHNU SAHASRANAMA- BIG DOUBT

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    The sense of duality "I'm a devotee of the Lord" and "He is my Lord" never vanishes for a vaishnava devotee (bhakta) because that sense of duality continues eternally even when the devotee reaches the world of Vaikuntha where he continues eternally being dedicated to the Lord with devotion (bhakti). This sense of duality "I'm a devotee of the Lord" and "He is my Lord" with devotion (bhakti) in Vaikuntha is permanent


    Pranama,
    I see Your Vaishnawa Sampradaya views are contradictory to the vaishnawism of Bhagavata Purana. I have already told you that as per Shri krishna's view individuallity vanishes after jeeva becomes Brahman. Jiva merges in Krishna or Brahman , is the core teaching of Uddhava Gita.


    “satvam chabhijayed ………jivam vihay mam “ ( BP 11.25.35)

    Meaning: The Jeeva having been free from Gunas, and having dropped the idea that it is Jeeva, attains Me and thus Jeeva freed from its separateness and liberated from Gunas unites with Me. ( bramhan)


    “ avam samahit……..jyotishi sanyutam “ (BP 11.14.45)

    Meaning: With his intellect thus established, he sees me in himself and himself actually merged in me (bramhan) like an individual light in the element of fire.



    and eternal state of liberation (mukti), which is the ultimate goal for every yogi who:
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe15/sbe15012.htm
    "reaches the end of the journey, the Highest abode of Vishnu" (Katha Upanishad 1.3.9)
    and also
    "he reaches indeed that place, from whence he is not born again." (Katha Upanishad 1.3.8)
    Padam/Dhama does not necessarily mean Loka/Vaikuntha. Moreover; if we take Vaikuntha as Padam, then it gets contradicted with Bhagavata Purana 12.5.11 wherein it is said that Jiva becomes Brahman and the self of Jiva is the highest absolute abode. "that place, from whence he is not born again."- Hear it is stressed that there is no Punarjanma. This is used only to deny the Punarjanma of Jiva. This is not supporting Vaikuntha.
    "That which the Vedāntists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns — that is My supreme abode."
    Dear Bandhu, you have not yet understood what is Avyakta. With proper understanding of what is avyakta, it is clear that avyakta means formless. Avyakta means the Tattwa which is smaller than the smallest and bigger than the biggest. Advaitians know that tatwa which is beyond formless and form. It is unexplainable, unseen, mind can not enter there. This akshara avyakta which is the most sublime abode of vishnu, is none other than the self. This is the core teaching of the Bhagavad Gita. And from common sense, Vaikuntha is not that unmanifested which krshna is talking about. The thing which has doors how can this become unmanifested ? Vaikuntha is the creation of Vishnu by his maya. It is the divine sport of Vishnu. Mind can easily think about it and it is full of dualities . These conditions of vaikuntha are contradictory to the Brahman which is non-dual ekamevadvitiya where is no second thing and which is not in the scope of Mind.


    Even if we accept krishna is talking about Vaikuntha in that Gita shloka, the logic says that krishna should have said that clearly. Then why krishna didn't mention Vaikuntha and not even in the uddhava Gita which is the essence of Veda. Why? Krishna has some kind of allergy to utter Vaikuntha word or he wants to say something different?
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 23 May 2014 at 10:24 AM.
    Hari On!

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    Re: VISHNU SAHASRANAMA- BIG DOUBT

    Namaste HLK
    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Your Vaishnawa Sampradaya views are contradictory to the Bhagavata Purana and so they are contradicting to my Vaishnawism.
    As far as I can see Gaudiya vaishnava (and also other mainstream vaishnava sampradayas) view is consistent with Bhagavatam teaching. It is your 'Vaishnawism' contrary to Bhagavatam.

    I have already told you that as per Shri krishna's view individuallity vanishes after jeeva becomes Brahman.

    “satvam chabhijayed ………jivam vihay mam “ ( BP 11.25.35)

    Meaning: The Jeeva having been free from Gunas, and having dropped the idea that it is Jeeva, attains Me and thus Jeeva freed from its separateness and liberated from Gunas unites with Me. ( bramhan)
    Many times by now I told you that jiva never loses his individuality. How many times do I have to repeat that?
    Lord Krishna said that clearly and explicitly in the Bhagavad gita 15.7 (http://vedabase.net/bg/15/7/en) :

    jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ

    "Jivas (the living entities) are eternal"

    Here the word sanātanaḥ "eternal" is clearly applied. This means that individuality of jiva is eternal, and it will never cease to exist!!!!

    This verse in the Bhagavatam 11.25.35 sattvaḿ cābhijayed ... ... jīvaḿ vihāya mām was spoken by the Lord Krishna.
    Now the question arises: Why would Lord Krishna first said in the Bhagavad gita 15.7 "Jivas (the living entities) are eternal", and then contradicted himself in the Bhagavatam 11.25.35 by saying "The Jeeva having been free from Gunas, and having dropped the idea that it is Jeeva"? !!!
    Do you think Lord Krishna was confused so that He contradicted himself? Do you think Lord Krishna was not well acquainted with his own teachings so that He, miserable, got confused?
    I do not think so. No, Lord Krishna certainly did not got confused, but your translator got confused. Yes, my dear, this happened to your translator!!!
    See how BBT vaishnava translator translated this verse (http://vedabase.net/sb/11/25/35/en) :

    "Then, being fixed in devotional service, the sage should also conquer the material mode of goodness by indifference toward the modes. Thus pacified within his mind, the spirit soul, freed from the modes of nature, gives up the very cause of his conditioned life and attains Me."

    See, there is no mention of "having dropped the idea that it is Jeeva", but instead says "gives up the very cause of his conditioned life". Thus BBT translator did not contradict the statement jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (see above Bhagavad gita 15.7).
    Jiva soul never drops the idea that he is a jiva because this idea remains forever!

    Padam/Dhama does not necessarily mean Loka/Vaikuntha. Moreover; if we take Vaikuntha as Padam, then it gets contradicted with Bhagavata Purana 12.5.11 wherein it is said ...

    "he reaches the end of the journey, the Highest abode of Vishnu (viṣṇoḥ padam)" (Katha Upanishad 1.3.9)

    See what is the use of words Padam/Dhama in the various scriptures and you'll see that it actually refers to Lord Vishnu's abode or Vaikuntha.
    This is clear from the Bhagavad gita and Puranas, and even in the shruti texts we see that words pada or lokam refer to the Lord's abode which is the world of liberation (mukti).

    Monier Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary:

    pada

    viṣṇoḥ padam N. (name) of a locality

    Now, about Bhagavatam 12.5.11:
    " You are That Brahman. You are that Supreme Absolute abode .. You should always meditate like this. Thus you'll surely know your Infinite Self " ( BP 12.5.11 )

    It says "always meditate like this", it is a type of meditation only.

    Dear Bandhu, you have not yet understood what is Avyakta. With proper understanding of what is avyakta, it is clear that avyakta means formless.
    In the Bhagavad gita 8.21 avyaktaḥ means "unmanifested" because it does not manifest before our eyes and we can not see it. This means "unmanifested".
    Monier Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary:

    avyakta

    undeveloped , not manifest , unapparent , indistinct , invisible , imperceptible

    Vaikuntha is the creation of Vishnu by his maya. It is the divine sport of Vishnu. Mind can easily think about it and it is full of dualities . These conditions of vaikuntha are contradictory to the Brahman which is non-dual ekamevadvitiya where is no second thing and which is not in the scope of Mind.
    Vaikuntha is not created because it is eternal and indestructible.
    Vaikuntha is Brahman because it is the state of liberation (mukti). No one can reach Vaikuntha if he did not achieve mukti in Brahman! Only those who have realized Brahman can reach Brahman, ie Vaikuntha.
    It seems that you do not understand that, because according to your view Vaikunta is something different from Brahman. This is not correct view, my dear, because Vaikuntha is Brahman, ie Vaikuntha = Brahman !!! It is not that Vaikunta is something different from Brahman!

    Krishna has some kind of allergy to utter Vaikuntha word or he wants to say something different?
    Should we call a doctor to help the Lord to heal His allergy?


    regards

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    Re: VISHNU SAHASRANAMA- BIG DOUBT

    Paranam my Bandhu Barhma Jijnasa..

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post

    Many times by now I told you that jiva never loses his individuality. How many times do I have to repeat that?
    Lord Krishna said that clearly and explicitly in the Bhagavad gita 15.7 (http://vedabase.net/bg/15/7/en) :
    jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ

    "Jivas (the living entities) are eternal
    This happens when we don't think deeply but directly interpret literally.

    " Jivabhutah are my eternal ansha " - There's only one way to interpret this. Because if we interpret it as Jiva are eternal, then it contradicts to the Uddhava Gita wherein it is said that jiva merges in Brahman or Jiva becomes Brahman. So it'll be foolish to consider jivas are eternal. The correct meaning of that shloka is as below :

    " First thing why krishna calls jiva as Ansha. Jiva is called as Ansha because it appears as surrounded by subtle body - Mind, intellect and Prana , which are smaller than the smallest. These Mind, intellect and prana are Sukshma tattva - atomic in size and appears as a part of complete Brahman. That's the reason why Jiva is imagined as Ansha but in reality he is of the nature of Barhman. Ansha doesn't mean that jiva is really a part of Barhman/Krishna. You forget that you are assuming part of the infinite, which is not ever possible. Part of the infinite is never possible. Moreover your part concept also contradicts with ekamevadvitiya Brahman or absolute brahman. So having no doubts, here jiva is certainly imagined as amsha according to the nature of Mind, intellect and Prana. " mam eva ansho " - Here eva (I'm only) is stressed implying that krishna is in the form of Jiva. This interpretation is greatly supported by Bahgavad Gita 10.20 " Aham atma sarvabhutashaysthitah - I'm Atma of all Jivas " So it's very clear that Jiva(false self) is not eternal. Atma/Barhman is eternal. Jiva is imagined as the amsha but not the infinite Atma.

    See how BBT vaishnava translator translated this verse (http://vedabase.net/sb/11/25/35/en) :
    "Then, being fixed in devotional service, the sage should also conquer the material mode of goodness by indifference toward the modes. Thus pacified within his mind, the spirit soul, freed from the modes of nature, gives up the very cause of his conditioned life and attains Me."
    It seems your source has somewhat biased translation.

    सम्पद्यते गुणैर्मुक्तो जीवो जीवं विहाय माम् ॥ ३५ ॥

    : Jiva having been free from his jivahood unites with me.

    सम्पद्यते- Unites | गुणैर्मुक्तो- having been free from Guna | जीवो- jiva | जीवं विहाय-Giving up Jivahood ( individual existence of atma/Barhman caused by mind, intellect and prana. This defination of Jiva is already stated by krishna before )


    जीवो जीवविनिर्मुक्तो गुणैश्चाशयसम्भवैः ।
    मयैव ब्रह्मणा पूर्णो न बहिर्नान्तरश्चरेत् ॥ ३६ ॥

    : Thus dropping the Jivahood caused by gunas, jiva becomes complete brahman exactly as I'm. Thereafter he doesn't move either in himself or outside.

    जीवो- Jiva | गुणैश्चाशयसम्भवैः- caused by the effects of gunas | जीवविनिर्मुक्तो - escaped from Jivahood | मयैव- exactly like me | ब्रह्मणा पूर्णो - complete Barhman | न बहिर्नान्तरश्चरेत् - doesn not move either in in himself or outside

    Now, about Bhagavatam 12.5.11:
    " You are That Brahman. You are that Supreme Absolute abode .. You should always meditate like this. Thus you'll surely know your Infinite Self " ( BP 12.5.11 )

    It says "always meditate like this", it is a type of meditation only.
    Error 404 : meaningless comment found. You can't comment.

    ." Dear Parikshita , " Self is that Brahaman. Self is that supreme absolute abode", thus/so you should fix your self in an undivided Atma ( having no duality) " Bhagavata 12.5.11

    Before this verse, Shuka declares that the Jiva becomes Brahman. He's trying to say that this Jiva itself is Brahman. So thus by seeing yourself as that Brahman or that absolute supreme abode, you should fix your self in an undivided Atma/Brahman. You should think the self as what it is in reality. This is the way to escape from the dream. Because logically by constant contemplating on the self as Brahman, jiva can quickly realizes himself as Brahman. This is the meaning. So no need to apply absurd tricks to down the real meaning. You are just trying to trick me in just words. Because it seems that you've no answer for that shloka.

    घटे भिन्ने घटाकाश आकाशः स्याद् यथा पुरा ।
    एवं देहे मृते जीवो ब्रह्म सम्पद्यते पुनः ॥ 12.5.५ ॥

    : Even as the appeared different space enclosed in the pot becomes complete Akasha after breaking of that pot, in the same way, when subtle body dies, jeeva becomes Brahman again [ Here "again" implies that he was already Brahman. His jivahood was because of maya only but not in the real sense. This concept is explained by Adi shankara in his upanishada Bhashya]

    The example of becoming of enclosed space into complete akasha clearly explains how the Jiva becomes brahman dropping his jivahood( false individual existence).


    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 21 May 2014 at 11:11 AM.

  7. Re: VISHNU SAHASRANAMA- BIG DOUBT

    Pranams ,

    I have another verse from Srimad Bhagwatam that IMHO inclines more towards Advaita . Here it is :

    yo vai mad-bhāvam āpanna
    īśitur vaśituḥ pumān
    kutaścin na vihanyeta
    tasya cājñā yathā mama



    A person who perfectly meditates on Me acquires My nature of being the supreme ruler and controller. His order, like Mine, can never be frustrated by any means. (SB 11.15.27)

    If there is only one supreme ruler and controller , Lord Krishna . Then how can there be another supreme controller . There can be only one SUPREME . This implies identity of Jiva and Brahman or Jiva is Shiva .

    Please correct me if I am wrong .

    Jai Shri Krishna .

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    Re: VISHNU SAHASRANAMA- BIG DOUBT

    Namaste

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    This happens when we don't think deeply but directly interpret literally.
    ... So it'll be foolish to consider jivas are eternal.
    Many times so far I've seen that people do not want to accept the literal statement handed down by the verse because it does not fit their philosophy. That's what you're doing right now.
    Why do not you tell the Lord: "My dear Lord, you have not thinking deeply" and "My dear Lord you said something foolish".

    ... That's the reason why Jiva is imagined as Ansha but in reality he is of the nature of Barhman.
    Yes, jiva is of the nature of Brahman.

    Ansha doesn't mean that jiva is really a part of Barhman/Krishna. You forget that you are assuming part of the infinite, which is not ever possible. Part of the infinite is never possible.
    Yes, jiva really is a part of Brahman (Lord Krishna), and it is a very small part of Brahman, atomic in size, and is Brahman but it is atomic in size.
    Yes, a part of the infinite is possible, because it is exactly what says Bhagavad gita 15.7 (http://vedabase.net/bg/15/7/en) :

    "The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts."

    Moreover your part concept also contradicts with ekamevadvitiya Brahman or absolute brahman. So having no doubts, here jiva is certainly imagined as amsha according to the nature of Mind, intellect and Prana.
    No, the contradiction is only in your mind, my dear, and it's happening to you because you do not understand Lord Krishna's words.
    Jiva as a part of Brahman (aḿśa) is not imagined, but is real!
    Jiva is real and eternal part of Brahman (Lord Krishna): mamaivāḿśo jīva-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (Bhagavad gita 15.7).

    Bahgavad Gita 10.20 " Aham atma sarvabhutashaysthitah - I'm Atma of all Jivas "
    Of course Lord Krishna is Atma of all the Jivas, but He is the other Atma called Paramatma (Supersoul). In every living being there are two souls (two atmas):
    1) individual soul called jiva or jiva-atma (jiva soul)
    and also
    2) the Lord in the form of the Supersoul called Paramatma

    So, Bhagavad gita 10.20 speaks about Paramatma.

    So it's very clear that Jiva(false self) is not eternal. Atma/Barhman is eternal.
    I really do not know what you think is clear, but I just see the confusion in your viewpoint.
    Jiva soul is eternal part of Brahman and thus is real as much as Brahman is real. So jiva is not false self, but is eternal and real part of Brahman (Lord Krishna).
    Jiva is real self, and will never cease to exist because it is eternal self (sanātanaḥ -- "eternal", Bhagavad gita 15.7).

    It seems your source has somewhat biased translation.

    सम्पद्यते गुणैर्मुक्तो जीवो जीवं विहाय माम् ॥ ३५ ॥

    : Jiva having been free from his jivahood unites with me.

    सम्पद्यते- Unites | गुणैर्मुक्तो- having been free from Guna | जीवो- jiva | जीवं विहाय-Giving up Jivahood ( individual existence of atma/Barhman caused by mind, intellect and prana.
    My two punch lines:
    1. This "जीवं विहाय-Giving up Jivahood" in Bhagavatam 11.25.35 jīvaḿ vihāya is not translated as "Giving up Jivahood" because it would be contradictory to jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (Bhagavad gita 15.7). That's what I explained in my previous post.

    2. This idea of yours "individual existence of atma/Barhman caused by mind, intellect and prana." is not true!
    Individual existence of the jiva soul is not caused because individual existence of the jiva soul exists forever!!! Jiva was never created and will never cease to exist, will not be destroyed. That is the meaning of the word sanātanaḥ "eternal", Bhagavad gita 15.7.
    Even when jiva soul get rid of mind, intellect and prana, this jiva soul will continue to exist as an liberated soul (mukta soul, achieved mukti), individual liberated jiva forever in Vaikuntha, the world of Brahman -- world of Lord Vishnu, the world of immortality.

    See, how many times I have to quote one and the same verse again and again (jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ, Bhagavad gita 15.7), and none of this is clear to you.

    Error 404 : meaningless comment found.
    There is no error here. This is just one type of meditation. It says "You should always meditate like this".
    There are many types of meditation recommended in the scriptures.

    घटे भिन्ने घटाकाश आकाशः स्याद् यथा पुरा ।
    एवं देहे मृते जीवो ब्रह्म सम्पद्यते पुनः ॥ 12.5.५ ॥

    : Even as the appeared different space enclosed in the pot becomes complete Akasha after breaking of that pot, in the same way, when subtle body dies, jeeva becomes Brahman again [ Here "again" implies that he was already Brahman. His jivahood was because of maya only but not in the real sense. This concept is explained by Adi shankara in his upanishada Bhashya]

    The example of becoming of enclosed space into complete akasha clearly explains how the Jiva becomes brahman dropping his jivahood( false individual existence).
    This verse in the Bhagavatam 12.5.5 is translated differently by the BBT translator:
    http://vedabase.net/sb/12/5/5/en

    "When a pot is broken, the portion of sky within the pot remains as the element sky, just as before. In the same way, when the gross and subtle bodies die, the living entity within resumes his spiritual identity."

    This verse just speaks that the soul attains liberation (mukti) when is released from the subtle material body (mind, intelligence, false ego, material senses and prana), and thus recovers its status as a pure soul.
    Jivahood (jiva status of existence) of the jiva soul was not because of maya (illusion), but is eternal property of the jiva soul as a particle of Brahman:

    mamaivāḿśo jīva-loke
    jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ

    "The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts." (Bhagavad gita 15.7)


    regards

  9. #39
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    Re: VISHNU SAHASRANAMA- BIG DOUBT

    Pranam Bandhu... Note to Mods : My views are from Advaitian Vaishnawism. I hope it'll be fine to post my views. Because I'm too Vaishnawa.

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Namaste

    Many times so far I've seen that people do not want to accept the literal statement handed down by the verse because it does not fit their philosophy. That's what you're doing right now.

    As far as your translations are concerned, you're trying to defend your philosophy which I think is contradicting with Bhagavata Purana.

    Yes, jiva really is a part of Brahman (Lord Krishna), and it is a very small part of Brahman, atomic in size, and is Brahman but it is atomic in size.
    Yes, a part of the infinite is possible, because it is exactly what says Bhagavad gita 15.7 (http://vedabase.net/bg/15/7/en) :
    "The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts."
    I've already told you that there's difference between Jiva and Atma. Jiva is the mixture of mind, intellect and prana and as these material things are atomic in size, jiva is called as amsha. It is nowhere said that Atma is amsha. Scriptures state that jiva is amsha but Jiva's original self atma is Brahman alone. " Aham brahmasmi " " Tat twam asi" " Atmaiva idam sarvam " Such thousands of shruti and smruti shlokas are standing to posit the real self of jiva is Brahman.

    Of course Lord Krishna is Atma of all the Jivas, but He is the other Atma called Paramatma (Supersoul). In every living being there are two souls (two atmas):
    1) individual soul called jiva or jiva-atma (jiva soul)
    and also
    2) the Lord in the form of the Supersoul called Paramatma
    First time I've seen such belief - Two souls in one Body. Better you should give clear support from Bhagavata Purana. But please don't give that two birds analogy. Apart from this if you've anything you can post your references here. I'd like to know them.

    I really do not know what you think is clear, but I just see the confusion in your viewpoint.
    Jiva soul is eternal part of Brahman and thus is real as much as Brahman is real. So jiva is not false self, but is eternal and real part of Brahman (Lord Krishna).
    Jiva is real self, and will never cease to exist because it is eternal self (sanātanaḥ -- "eternal", Bhagavad gita 15.7).
    This idea of yours "individual existence of atma/Barhman caused by mind, intellect and prana." is not true!


    Jiva is false self, this is supported by many shlokas of Bhagavata Purana and yes if you have read any unbiased non-sectarian Bhagavata Purana. Atma or Barhman is called as Jiva when he appears in Mind, intellect and prana which is collectively called as Suksha Sharira. From this Suksha sharira, Sthula sharira gets formed.

    Read what is Jiva, the definations of Jiva based on Bhagavata Purana:


    “dehendriya pranamayo…..adhavati kalatantrah “ (BP 11.28.16)

    Meaning:

    The spirit hidden behind the body, the senses, the vital airs and the mind and identifying itself with them is called the Jeeva. The subtle body constituted of the Gunas and karmas is its material manifestation and is variously known as the Sootrama or the Mahat-Tattwa and controlled by God in the form of the Time-spirit) it revolves in Sansara. (World)


    “satwam rajastam……tayoho param yat “(BP 11.3.37)

    Meaning:

    That which was one before creation became known as Pradhana (or Prakriti) of triple nature, consisting of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas. Then by its active power it became as the Sutratma and by its power of understanding it became known as Mahat Principle. Again as a condition investing the Jeeva or individual soul, it became known as Ahankara (the ego). The incomprehensible Brahman alone shines as deities presiding over the senses and their objects and the pain pleasure experience. The effect and the cause – are all Brahman only, because it is cause of both.

    “avam vimrushya….makhilasanshayadhim “ (BP 11.13.23)

    Meaning: You should think like this and arrive at the conclusion about the nature of the self that the three states of mind born out of three Gunas are falsely superimposed on Me as the Jeeva, by my delusive Power (Maya) and should cut at the root of egoism, the basis of all doubts, with the sword of Wisdom fortified by reasoning, the precepts of saints and the texts of Shruti
    (Upanishads), and join in the Unity with Me seated in your heart.


    See, how many times I have to quote one and the same verse again and again (jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ, Bhagavad gita 15.7), and none of this is clear to you.
    I've already told you why only Jiva is called as Amsha and why not Atma.


    There is no error here. This is just one type of meditation. It says "You should always meditate like this".
    There are many types of meditation recommended in the scriptures.
    Clearly speaking ,this quote seems childish which is completely illogical and I think you just want to defend and for that you want to say something even if it is absurd. So I wouldn't comment on this. .


    This verse in the Bhagavatam 12.5.5 is translated differently by the BBT translator:
    http://vedabase.net/sb/12/5/5/en
    "When a pot is broken, the portion of sky within the pot remains as the element sky, just as before. In the same way, when the gross and subtle bodies die, the living entity within resumes his spiritual identity."
    Again trying to defend the philosophy by intentionally creating non-existent confusions . All know BBT translation is the translation done by Gaudiya Vaishnawism. I've personally studied their translations but honestly didn't find them authentic and honest. The unbiased translation I've given:

    घटे भिन्ने घटाकाश आकाशः स्याद् यथा पुरा ।
    एवं देहे मृते जीवो ब्रह्म सम्पद्यते पुनः ॥ 12.5.५ ॥

    : Even as the appeared different space enclosed in the pot becomes complete Akasha after breaking of that pot, in the same way, when subtle body dies, jeeva becomes Brahman again [ Here "again" implies that he was already Brahman. His jivahood was because of maya only but not in the real sense. This concept is explained by Adi shankara in his upanishada Bhashya]


    In that verse, There's no sanskrit word equivalent to "Spiritual Identity". There's Brahman word - Jiva becomes Brahman is the meaning of जीवो ब्रह्म सम्पद्यते पुनः . By seeing this, you are trying badly to defend. I said badly because the example of becoming of individual sky into complete sky is totally irrelevant to the "getting spiritual identity"

    I guess even a school kid too can understand the meaning of that. In that verse, the example of pot is used to clarify how jiva(individual false self) becomes Brahman( complete true infinite self).

    In that verse,
    घटाकाश is equivalent to जीवो ( enclosed space within pot mean enclosed jiva within the pot of subtle body ie mind, intellect and prana)

    आकाशः is equivalent to
    ब्रह्म ( The complete space which is already covering in the pot. When the pot gets broken means when the body dies, the appeared space becomes complete space means the appeared jiva becomes complete Brahman. Punah-Again is mentioned to show that as the individual sky seems seperate from Brahman but in reality it is complete sky only. That individual sky was already complete akasha, in the same way jiva was already brahman. The individuality of brahman appears due to maya. Because knowledge and ignorance have appearance due to the Maya. But Atma is always aloof from Bondage and Moksha. But Ignorant persons impose the dirt of the sky to the Pure sky. Because They're completely unaware of what is Atma. )



    This verse just speaks that the soul attains liberation (mukti) when is released from the subtle material body (mind, intelligence, false ego, material senses and prana),
    And besides the verse uses additional example of pot and sky to show how jiva becomes Brahma

    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 23 May 2014 at 09:27 AM.

  10. Re: VISHNU SAHASRANAMA- BIG DOUBT

    Pranams ,


    There is one more verse in Bhagvatam that IMHO inclines towards Advaita . Here it is :

    yo vai mad-bhāvam āpanna
    īśitur vaśituḥ pumān
    kutaścin na vihanyeta
    tasya cājā yathā mama


    A person who perfectly meditates on Me acquires My nature of being the supreme ruler and controller. His order, like Mine, can never be frustrated by any means. (SB 11.15.27)


    If there is only one Supreme , Lord Krishna , then how can be another Supreme as well. This implies the identity of Jiva and Brahman . Please Share your views .




    Jai Shree Krishna .

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